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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, 10cc Syringe, Brown Rice Flour, Vermiculite

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Offlineflyingtapirs
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Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate
    #3686742 - 01/27/05 01:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Ok so i have to mix vermiculite, BRF and water until the point where the mixture is holding as much water as it can. i've read 2 different approaches in the TEKs. one is to mix the verm and BRF together first and then add water. PF-TEK for simple minds advocates getting the water in the verm first until it reaches capacity THEN adding the BRF. this is the approach i followed.

the thing i noticed was that the mixture got noticably drier once i added the BRF and i felt i could easily add more water to the mix and it would hold. I also remember that experimentation on your first attempt was bad so i laid off and just went ahead.

So my question is, which way should one do this? Mix the verm and BRF and then add water until the mix is saturated? or mix the verm and water first and then add the BRF once the verm is holding as much water as it can?

many thanks everyone, i'm amazed at the community and support we have around here!


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: flyingtapirs]
    #3686772 - 01/27/05 01:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I was wrong :frown: *sniffle*

The whole mixture shouldnt be at field capacity, just the verm..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Edited by scatmanrav (01/28/05 11:48 AM)


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Offlineflyingtapirs
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3686804 - 01/27/05 01:55 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

that's what i based it on, i used the 2:1:1 (verm:BRF:water) formula. if colonization takes forever i'll try mixing verm and BRF first then bringing the whole lot to field capacity.


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Offlineflyingtapirs
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: flyingtapirs]
    #3687277 - 01/27/05 04:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

any other ideas on this guys? i'm kinda concerned i may be doing something wrong even before i innoc...


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: flyingtapirs]
    #3687315 - 01/27/05 04:28 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In the past, I used the 2:1:1 formula, mixing the vermiculite and water first, and then adding the Brown Rice Flour. It was a success. I don't know what "field capacity" means exactly (care to explain?), but I can tell you that if you start adding more water than is recommended in the formula, it is easy to overdo it.

You don't want the consistency to be like oatmeal. If the moisture is at the right level, then the substrate will plop into the container with a good deal of air pockets which the mycelium just love.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3687411 - 01/27/05 05:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

>The whole moisture should be at field capacity..
No.
It is meant exactly as it is written.
The vermiculite should be at the field capacity, and then the brf should be added.
If you add any water after this, it will be too wet.

>the thing i noticed was that the mixture got noticeably drier once i added the BRF
Of course, this is exactly what is supposed to happen.
One thing though, if you do it this way, follow the recipe. It won't work if you add a bigger amount of BRF that it is specified. In this case it is going to be too dry.

>So my question is, which way should one do this?
Do both, and observe the difference.


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Offlineflyingtapirs
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: Anno]
    #3688987 - 01/27/05 04:46 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks Anno, appreciate the clarification. So i did do it the right way then


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: flyingtapirs]
    #3689671 - 01/27/05 07:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Not sure. You say: " i used the 2:1:1 (verm:BRF:water) formula"

This is not the formula which works best with this mixing method.


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OfflineFungus_Farmer
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: Anno]
    #3689750 - 01/27/05 07:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

While we're on the subject, I have a related question. I made 8 jars, with varying amounts of water in each, to see the differences. I've heard people say that it's better to be too dry than too wet. Why is that? It seems a little wet would be better than a little dry, as the cake would not run out of water, but if it was too dry the colonization could stop halfway through, and you're stuck with a dead cake. Can anyone straighten me out on this?


--------------------
Excerpt from one of my textbooks:
Therefore, between a then and its matching else, there cannot be an if statement without an else. Statements must be distinguished between those that are matched and those that are unmatched, where unmatched statements are else-less ifs and all other statements are matched.
I wonder if that would make more sense if I was tripping when I read it.


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Invisiblepinkfloydms
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: Fungus_Farmer]
    #3689926 - 01/27/05 07:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think it is easier to cantam with too much water'


--------------------
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so yeah:
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OfflineKaptKid
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: Fungus_Farmer]
    #3689927 - 01/27/05 07:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

For me to much water means more contam's and faster.


--------------------
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:sun:


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OfflineFungus_Farmer
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: KaptKid]
    #3691286 - 01/27/05 11:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Easier contam makes sense, are there any other reasons why too wet is so more dangerous than too dry? You can always throw a contam'd cake out and reuse the jar, but what can you do to a jar that stalls after 3 weeks? Either throw it out or risk contamination by trying to re-hydrate it somehow. That's why I'm wondering if there are any other explanations.


--------------------
Excerpt from one of my textbooks:
Therefore, between a then and its matching else, there cannot be an if statement without an else. Statements must be distinguished between those that are matched and those that are unmatched, where unmatched statements are else-less ifs and all other statements are matched.
I wonder if that would make more sense if I was tripping when I read it.


Edited by New_Shroomer81 (01/27/05 11:57 PM)


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OfflineGNIOM1498
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: Fungus_Farmer]
    #3691360 - 01/28/05 12:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Well I believe that when there's to much water it just will not grow as I found out. I believe that was the cause for some of my jars to fail(extra water leaked in when pressure cooked) I figured give i it a try and the ones with the most water just didn't grow. While the ones with no extra water or little extra did.


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----ALL MY POSTS ARE FICTIONAL-------


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Offlineflyingtapirs
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: Anno]
    #3691697 - 01/28/05 01:15 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
Not sure. You say: " i used the 2:1:1 (verm:BRF:water) formula"

This is not the formula which works best with this mixing method.




Anno, which is the best formula for that method? (water and verm first, then BRF)


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: Anno]
    #3692865 - 01/28/05 11:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
>The whole moisture should be at field capacity..
No.
It is meant exactly as it is written.
The vermiculite should be at the field capacity, and then the brf should be added.
If you add any water after this, it will be too wet.

>the thing i noticed was that the mixture got noticeably drier once i added the BRF
Of course, this is exactly what is supposed to happen.
One thing though, if you do it this way, follow the recipe. It won't work if you add a bigger amount of BRF that it is specified. In this case it is going to be too dry.

>So my question is, which way should one do this?
Do both, and observe the difference.




Oopsie...I guess I should take my own advice and stop giving it where I'm unexperienced. Yeah..I dont do the PF Tek so listen to all these people on it. Anno did his own experimenting to find out what mixture worked best for him...I think you may have a difficult time just getting him to tell you without trying a little work for yourself. Plus it will vary depending on the verm and BRF you use. Try different jars all at once with slight variances in the water amount...like 5-10cc differences. Do a few jars of each water content and you'll have yourself a nice little experiment.

By the way field capacity is just as much water as it will hold without any excess (dripping or whatever).


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Offlineflyingtapirs
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3693675 - 01/28/05 03:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

yeah i guess i'll do that for my next batch. its been 2 days since Innoc so its too early to tell yet if these went well...


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InvisibleJimber510
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: flyingtapirs]
    #3693870 - 01/28/05 04:41 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I use the 2:1:1 (Verm, BRF, H2O)...
When I mix I like to measure out the verm first and put it into a big bowl, then I put in the BRF. I will mix these up as well as I can before I pour in the water. I do it this way because I find it is easier to mix the BRF evenly through the verm when the mixture is dry.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: flyingtapirs]
    #3693942 - 01/28/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

>Anno, which is the best formula for that method? (water and verm first, then BRF)

http://www.fungifun.org/pf/pf_en.htm#zubereitung


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3693967 - 01/28/05 05:13 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

>I think you may have a difficult time just getting him to tell you without trying a little work for yourself.

Actually no, it is very easy for me to tell what to do.
Saturate the vermiculite to field capacity and then add the appropriate amount of BRF, that's all there is to it.

>Plus it will vary depending on the verm and BRF you use.
It will vary on the vermiculite mainly.
Brown rice has far less variation in the ability to store water than the different grades of vermiculite have.

>Try different jars all at once with slight variances in the water amount...like 5-10cc differences.

The best thing about saturating the vermiculite first is that you don't have to measure the amount of water at all.

Just measure out the vermiculite, add water till saturation, measure out BRF, add to the saturated vermiculite, mix and fill into jars. You do NOT measure the amount of water with my variation of the PF tek.


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InvisibleNOS4A2
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Re: Clarification on procedure for mixing the substrate [Re: Anno]
    #3694004 - 01/28/05 05:23 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I've found that getting a good mix isn't always desired as Jimber desribes it. When you do a water and verm mix first then your finished mix will be a bit clumpy which as someone said earlier gives you a more aerated mix which myc grows easiest in. If it is a finely mixed sub then the myc's gonna have to work harder to get through it, and an over wet mix just compounds this problem. Also don't tamp down! This should be obvious by now. Just drop the mix in and tap the bottom of the jar on your palm lightly to get it to lay flat and as even as it will without direct force.GL


--------------------
Hail to the King, Baby
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