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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677498 - 01/25/05 01:47 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm well aware of the theory, but there is an opposing theory in psychology as well, I'm looking for a link on it now.

Either way, it doesn't matter though, because there are lots of women who enjoy promiscuous sex, no matter what the average is.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677514 - 01/25/05 01:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Helen Fisher is an evolutionary psychologist, some quotes from her in an ABC article:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=230011&page=2

Evolutionary anthropologist Helen Fisher says she doesn't believe women are naturally more monogamous than men.

"I think we're going to come to find, as women become more economically powerful and express their sexuality more during the course of this century, that women are just as adulterous as men," she said.

Fisher's evidence begins in the bird world.

"Warbler females seem to have a call or a song that they give out when their husband is out of town in order to attract extra mates," she said.

And in most mammalian species, Fisher said, both the male and the female are totally promiscuous

According to Fisher, it's rooted in the Stone Age. "Millions of years ago, if a woman had an extra lover, she would get extra meat from that male. She could get extra protection from that male," she said.

And she could get extra sex as well.

20/20 spoke with a woman, who asked to be identified only as Jennifer, who was happily married for five years, but was until recently seeing another man. She said no one, including her husband, can provide everything ? especially good sex.

"You need one that their touch makes every hair on your body stand on end and just makes your heart race a million miles an hour and you haven't left the bedroom," she said.

And when she would leave her lover after a night of passionate sex, she said she didn't have an empty feeling or wonder when she would see him again.

"Complete opposite. It was like, 'I just had amazing sex, and he's gone, thank God. I have the bed to myself. ' "

Jennifer is human proof that women today may not be more monogamous than men. Since her lover moved away, she's been looking for a new sexual partner through an online dating service for spouses who want to fool around.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677908 - 01/25/05 03:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'd like to point out that even if women are better suited to stable, monogamous relationships and that this makes prostitution immoral, following that same logic, we must conclude that it is immoral for men to not be sexually promiscuous, as we are better suited to spreading our seed.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Paou]
    #3677912 - 01/25/05 03:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Hehe, good point.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677946 - 01/25/05 03:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The main flaw of yours is that you seem to think making prostitution illegal will solve all these problems. Women are already prostitutes, and some are underage, some are forced into it, some are not competent to decide. And you know why this is? Precisely because it is illegal. If we legalized prostitution, women would not be able to be pressed into it more than any other career, because like any other profession only the people who were best suited and most enthusiastic about the job would get it.

Not to mention, where do you come off deciding that you, a man, can choose what an adult woman can and can't do with her own body? The difference between child labor laws and legal prostitution is legally, children aren't competent to decide for themselves until they're adults. Prostitution would be adult women, tested for STDs and taught their profession, and focused on preventing the harm on the inevitable act of prostitution, rather than leaving it up to the gangsters and the black market to pressure underaged women into it. You saying prostitution should remain illegal doesn't help women at all, it hurts the ones who are already doing it even more than any legal career could.

Look at what you're arguing for, and you will realize that it is precisely aligned with the rationale for illegal drugs. Studies can say that after people try drugs, they're hooked and therefore can't make their own decisions, so they should be put in jail, eh? Nobody chooses to do drugs, they are pressured into it by their social environment or others, and indeed it would be best if we put them all in jail to stop this social evil.

And notice outlawing prostitution has worked no better than outlawing drugs. Legalize drugs and prostitution :thumbup:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Ravus]
    #3678066 - 01/25/05 04:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I don't support the legalization of all drugs, nor do I support people who sell crack and heroin to high school kids. With drugs, particularly of psychedelic variety, this deals only with an individual. There is no transaction between multiple parties and there is no exploitation involved. Performing sexual favors for money is completely different because it involves one party coercing another through money.

And as far nobody chooses to do drugs, what are you talking about? I chose to do them! Nobody made me. No peer pressure, no teenage rebellion. Nothing. I was just interested. Prostitution IS NOT the same. Nobody gets on the internet, reads about being a prostitute and thinks "hey maybe I should try that instead of going to college!" With drugs there is much more free choice than sucking dick or starving.

And when you push the issue by the idea of morality being arbitrary, hell why not have child prostitution? If the kids want it, and who are we as adults to say they don't? That is exactly the argument you are using. You're distinction between the free will of a child and an adult is just as abitrary. There are many children in this world that have more power then some adults living in slavery. Does that mean that the child has no ability of choice, whereas the adult slave does? You are damn right morality is arbitrary, but in this case I believe it is well justified and I would be an uncompassionate and degenerate person to let some abstract moral relativity/ayn rand bullshit make me turn a blind eye to the suffering involved in the sex industry.

This reminds me of that argument I used to hear how about how leaving Saddam Hussein in control of Iraq was actually respecting their free choice. After all, they didn't like being ruled by a brutal dictator, then why don't they just get rid of him? How dare we not respect Iraqis right to be oppressed?! How culturally insensitive?!
Oppression is not a right, and it does not deserve to be respected.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Edited by Divided_Sky (01/25/05 04:26 PM)


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3678146 - 01/25/05 04:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

By the way. I don't believe that arresting prostitutes works. I believe arresting their patrons does.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3678378 - 01/25/05 04:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I don't know of many other jobs that tread so ambigiously upon the boundaries of rape.



And my job is just like slavery because if I refuse to work they don't pay me.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3678491 - 01/25/05 05:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You are damn right morality is arbitrary, but in this case I believe it is well justified and I would be an uncompassionate and degenerate person to let some abstract moral relativity/ayn rand bullshit make me turn a blind eye to the suffering involved in the sex industry.

A. The sex industry is inevitable. There has never been a society without it.
B. All the abuses and and suffering in the sex industry are things that would never be permitted in any sort of legal/controlled environment.
C. If the sex industry were legal/controlled, the government would have to prosecute people based on their involvement.


Again, why should educated and intelligent women who choose to be prostitutes because they want to, not be allowed to do that?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/11/99
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3678506 - 01/25/05 05:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


This reminds me of that argument I used to hear how about how leaving Saddam Hussein in control of Iraq was actually respecting their free choice. After all, they didn't like being ruled by a brutal dictator, then why don't they just get rid of him? How dare we not respect Iraqis right to be oppressed?! How culturally insensitive?!
Oppression is not a right, and it does not deserve to be respected.


An oppressive regime that has demonstrated to be oppressive is one thing, while an unregulated profession were SOME of the people involved are oppressed is another thing entirely.

A more accurate analogy would be like solving the problem with oppressed Iraqis by making it illegal to be an Iraqi. Instead, the US went in and is attempting to change the government to a better, more fair system. Instead of just outlawing prostitution, get rid of the evil pimps, and create a more fair system.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Edited by Phluck (01/25/05 05:30 PM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3678611 - 01/25/05 05:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Performing sexual favors for money is completely different because it involves one party coercing another through money.




Coerce: To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation.

It is definitely not coercion. If prostitution were legal, prostitutes would set a price for their services, and people would pay them. Prostitutes would not have to deal with being pressured, threatened or intimidated, because if it were legal, they could get the police involved, just like any other industry. They could have body guards there to handle people if they tried to "coerce" anyone. A prostitute has the right to say no, and if she says yes, and both parties are consenting adults, why should you of all people come between them and say they can't have sex because you don't like her career?

Quote:

And as far nobody chooses to do drugs, what are you talking about? I chose to do them!




That's exactly what many prostitutes in Nevada would say about their prostitution if you said to them prostitutes have no choice in the matter, that they have to fuck to survive. Bullshit. And as for prostitutes not going to college? Nice stereotype, but not true, if you read about legal prostitution many are going to college and only doing prostitution as a part time way to get money.

Quote:

And when you push the issue by the idea of morality being arbitrary, hell why not have child prostitution?




I never said morality was arbitrary first of all, I have no idea where you got that from, and why we don't have child prostitution is the same reason we don't allow 10 year olds to work 15 hour days. They are not developed enough and do not have enough life experiences to know if they are getting paid the right amount, what is acceptable in the workplace and how many hours is too much. Our society said the age when someone is able to think and choose for themselves is 18 (or 21), and if that applies to moving out, choosing their college, choosing their job and work hours, choosing where they want to live, why would you tell them they cannot legally choose a career like prostitution? If someone is legally responsible enough to live on their on, get a job, go to a school of their own choosing and are the age society deemed an adult, then they should also be able to choose what they want to do with their life as long as they do not harm anybody else. If prostitution were legal, both parties would have full consent, and nobody would be harmed, so there is no reason to restrict it.

Quote:

but in this case I believe it is well justified and I would be an uncompassionate and degenerate person to let some abstract moral relativity/ayn rand bullshit make me turn a blind eye to the suffering involved in the sex industry.




Again, the majority of suffering in the sex industry is there because it is illegal. Do you know why drug dealing is such a good option to those who are poor and starving? Again, because it's illegal, and so they can jack up the price on the black market without even needing to deal with a legitimate job or getting help. If prostitution was legal, people wouldn't go to those who needed to suffer on the streets to live, and those who suffer would get help. They would go to qualified legal brothels, where the prostitutes are consenting adults, and give them a good living or extra income to pay for college.

Quote:

Oppression is not a right, and it does not deserve to be respected.




Finally, we agree on something completely. Oppressing two adults who are completely consenting, sending them to jail and pushing harsh fines on them, is one of the sickest things in this society, and should never be respected. If an individual does not harm anybody else, if a prostitute is consenting and has sex with a completely consenting individual, yet they get sent to jail for that, that is oppression at its worst.

You say you would not arrest the prostitutes, only their patrons? What help would that serve that prostitutes? Nothing at all, that's exactly the type of "blind eye" that you spoke of turning to the issue a few posts earlier. The prostitute would still be an illegal prostitute, having sex with strange unknown men instead of being in a legal qualified industry where the patrons can be recorded and known and the prostitute's safety is much more insured rather than having her walk the streets late at night


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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