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InvisibleATWAR
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A cube is a cube?
    #3675894 - 01/25/05 03:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There has been many times I have seen somebody post the following phrase: "A cube is a cube". There was also a discussion about it in another thread, but it is off topic. I decided to take this to a fresh post, to focus on this alone. Other thread


I would like to provide two examples from my archives that clearly illustrates differences between two strains of Ps. cubensis (these were both from multi-spore inoculations):

First, we have a Malabar:

Pay particular attention to how the veil stays well attached to the stem and cap quite tenaciously, even when the cap is relatively mature. The cap separates from the stem and begins to open while the veil remains persistently attached to both.


On specimens that actually do shed the veil, it leaves a very persistent and large annulus. There is usually little spore production until well after the veil tears (notice few spores are on the veil remnant). And typically when the veil finally does tear, there is a blue ring left around the margin.

Here is a Mazapatec:

Notice how the cap is more undulating or "wavy" in these specimens than the Malabar.


The Mazapatec strain begins to tear its veil very early in maturity, as soon as the cap separates from the stem. Even when small, spore production has begun, as evident by spores on the stem in the picture above.


When the veil tears on the Mazapatec, remnants are rarely left on the stem with the majority clinging to the cap margin.

And finally, a comparison between cap coloration:


Notice how the Malabar has white specks of veil remnants on the cap, and generally start out with tones of reddish color, that fades to a light tan, getting almost white near the margin.

while the Mazapatec has dark specks on the cap and a brownish color streaked with a "wood-grain" appearance. Mazapatecs usually start out more orange in color than red as well.






This I present to all the people who insist a "cube is a cube"...
Clearly there are differences, and these differences also expand beyond morphology.
As stated in the other thread, individual results will vary.


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Offlineazurescens
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: ATWAR]
    #3675907 - 01/25/05 03:06 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think what most people refer to when they say "A cube is a cube", is mostly to do with potency and factors that determin growth parameters and what not. JMO


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: azurescens]
    #3675940 - 01/25/05 03:21 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

No its not...people say it any time you talk about any differences. And potency does vary (I know other things affect it more but given same substrate and conditions over many subjects). Growth parameters is all thats the same.

Very nice pics of nice Malabars..have not grown Mazas yet..think I have a syringe somewhere though...Malabars were definatly a unique looking strain. I found my Hawaiins to have similar look/yeilds/fruiting but none have held onto their veil like them.

Well whatever, people can think what they want about cubies..yeah their similar but each is there own unique thing. None is better then another though! This is important to stress! All just have there own things..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: azurescens]
    #3675967 - 01/25/05 03:32 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ATWAR said:
Clearly there are differences, and these differences also expand beyond morphology.




Quote:

azurescens said:
I think what most people refer to when they say "A cube is a cube", is mostly to do with potency and factors that determin growth parameters and what not. JMO





Potency is an issue that will always be debated in the community. There is a document showing a difference between two seperate strains of cubensis. Until there is an easy means to test potency, I do not see any any further proof being provided.

As for growth parameters, there can also be differences. There are strains that are more temperature tolerant of others. For example, I have had beds late in the season outdoors that did not pin, while another continued to grow in mass amounts until hard frost. Another example is when my indoor environment was above 90F+, some strains refused to pin or grew poorly, while others seemed to enjoy the extra heat...

But, each cubensis strain will grow within a fairly large range of environmental conditions and substrates, so in that regard, a cube is a cube. You will grow them if you follow the directions of fellow Shroomerites... I think the proper term would be "on average, a cube is a cube".



I just think this notion is totally misleading to impart on a newbie.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: ATWAR]
    #3675991 - 01/25/05 03:54 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes that is true too...I tend to run a warm closet in my room beyond my control (without heavy mods I dont want to do)..like 77-82ish...I have alot of problems with overlay with some strains, some strains fruit much easier in the warmer temps. Z's and Brazils being two IME...I guess even certain conditions could vary in strains as well..

I wonder if certain strains might pin more readily in higher humid environments while some look for less humid environments for pinning? I've noticed that some strains of mycelium will overlay the surface if I water to much but others will not no matter how much I water..

I think these differences also become more apparent to not just those who have grown multiple strains...but multiple at once. I never have fewer then 3 strains in my closet at a time..sometimes more like 5 or 6..watching them all grow in the same closet and conditions and coming from the same 40-50 pound batch of grain all soaked, simmered, PCed (PCed in runs of course..I wish I had a PC that big..), knocked up and incubated together you tend to notice the differences..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3676014 - 01/25/05 04:26 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Certainly there are differences.
But you can not reliably predict and say this strain has these and those characteristics.
There are too many variables that play a role:

strain origin (major factor!)
strain freshness
strain isolation
substrate composition (major factor!)
substrate pH
water content
incubation temperature
air exchange
casing materials (major factor!)
casing pH
casing moisture
fruiting temperature
fruiting humidity
light

All those factors(and probably 100 others I left out) make it nearly impossible to answer the question about "what characteristics does the strain xxx have?"


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3676016 - 01/25/05 04:28 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:
I think these differences also become more apparent to not just those who have grown multiple strains...but multiple at once.




Exactly. When one compares strains on different substrates and conditions only does this really become apparent... But, with so many strains who is going to test them all? There are differences, but it would take an enormous number of experiments to come to an average conclusion on the performance of each strain. This is unlikely to happen anytime soon. The best thing any grower can do is find a strain (or isolate) that performs well under his/her conditions and substrate through a trial basis.


This is the main reason why I dislike the saying "a cube is a cube" (especially when said to newbies). It is misleading as to impart they are all identical, or they will all perform equally well with all the different types of growing methods. Each strain performs differently from a genetic standpoint, further influenced by environmental conditions...



The PF strain for example performs very poorly when cased on bulk (experience). However, I hear it does fairly well using the PF-Tek...


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: Anno]
    #3676052 - 01/25/05 04:38 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
But you can not reliably predict and say this strain has these and those characteristics.





Which is one of the primary reasons why I have a problem with the statement that "a cube is a cube". As I mentioned above, one needs to experiment to find a good performing strain for his/her conditions (isolation would be the ideal, but this is not common for the newbie). Certainly there will be variations, but I have had consistent enough results with multiple grows to be able to predict characteristics in my setting...



Basically,
Do not take advice on other strains from other people as "golden".
Individual results will vary. A cube is not the same cube in another persons fruiting chamber...


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: ATWAR]
    #3676141 - 01/25/05 05:30 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly..

The whole problem with the statment of "a cube is a cube just pick one" and NOTHING else...which is what most newbies get when they ask anything..is its misleading and provides NO information. Thats where this thread came from..this happening. This leads newbies to believe that they just buy this strain and thats how all other cubies will grow for them. Then they further spread that idea. Then people dont try out other strains to see how they preform for them. And dont try isolating to see how different isolates perform. And no one learns anything. And the music dies. Bye bye Miss American Pie.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3676280 - 01/25/05 07:33 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

From what I have noticed, most times when someone says "a cube is a cube" they are replying to a newbie who is just starting to grow and wants the fastest and most potent strain of cube.

Anyone who has any experience will realize that they all have SLIGHTLY different qualities and probably wouldnt ask the question "what is the best/fastest/potent strain?".

For someone just starting out it dosent matter what strain of cube they start with. They havent even gotten the basics down yet. So in those instances then " a cube is a cube".

Here is a perfect example another newbie he dosent need a different strain, he needs to practice his tek.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


Edited by niteowl (01/25/05 07:48 AM)


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: niteowl]
    #3676301 - 01/25/05 07:45 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: niteowl]
    #3676303 - 01/25/05 07:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I dont think its our call to tell how new the person is to growing. Perhaps the person is asking having tried a few strains and still looking so the person could be asking for a few options. Ask and if multiple people respond and say EQ is an easy fruiting strain and you havnt tried it and thats what your looking for then you should and see how you like it. But there are dozens of choices..when your going through them its tough to pick new ones...I dont know which one to do next myself....so you can ask for aid. A recent thread was someone who grew a few strains and wanted a few choices that people has luck with fast colonization. Some reply with legit responses "Cubes will grow similar and conditions such as water content will affect things alot more but I've had good luck with Z's and Brazils for quick colonizing" but some say "cubes a cube". That doesnt help the poster at all and thats where this thread came from people like that.

For those who ask for a strain to start with...A cube is a cube is still pretty uninformative. If your gonna bother responding you may as well say "Just pick one that you think looks good or interesting..all are very similar and none are better then the others, its a matter of taste" which is IMHO a MUCH better response.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3676304 - 01/25/05 07:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"Just pick one that you think looks good or interesting..all are very similar and none are better then the others, its a matter of taste" which translates to "a cube is a cube"  :wink:


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: Anno]
    #3676321 - 01/25/05 08:07 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I guess its the same...but its just a little more descriptive. Your giving them a statment to accept without any reasoning or explination behind it. And then 10 people in a row will respond with "yeah a cubes a cube", "yeah I agree, a cubes a cube", "yeah me too...all the same"..I dunno I guess I just like to be more descriptive. I mean cubes arent exactly the same and thats the point. They look different and have different charecteristics. This kind of comment can lead someone (I know it has at least once) to purchase 4 syringes of the same type instead of different strains to try out because he was told they were all the same. He PMed me asking me how I got different looking mushrooms...its this train of thought..just telling people 2+2=4 BECAUSE IT DOES..and not explaining the steps to get there to aid them in future problem solving..

Still...thats ONLY if this is a new person but you never know whos new and telling that to someone whos asking specifically about trying to find a quicker strain isnt helpful. Strain plays a roll in a number of things just like alot of varables...whats wrong with looking at one variable at a time? First get a few strains that are recommended repeatedly for speed then work on isolating and such like that. After growing a few strains I asked about strains that fruited at a higher temp and just got "cube is a cube" answer. I know its BS because some I had fruited better then others at my higher temp closets. Ive tried a few more strains since but am still looking for a better strain at slightly higher temps.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3676332 - 01/25/05 08:16 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

10 points to scat for saying bye bye miss american pie..

So the main point of this whole thread is this people.

Strains vary and how they grow depends on how much TLC you give them, not what they are. Unless you're doing pan.s of course, cuz they own cubes :laugh: :lol:


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InvisiblePrisoner#1M
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3676395 - 01/25/05 08:50 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

except, pans arent cubes


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3676399 - 01/25/05 08:53 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think he was saying they're better then cubes, thinking everyone hear knows they arent cubes..

Whered your green go?


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisiblePrisoner#1M
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3676408 - 01/25/05 08:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I still see green...


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3676412 - 01/25/05 08:59 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

clouds of blues and pysiloben mushies too? ooo, what auh wonderful wonder :X

And yea...I know that they're not cubes....but they own. Like i said, they own cubes, i.e, they're not cubes :laugh:


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: A cube is a cube? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3676422 - 01/25/05 09:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Weird name looks yellow..a little green M there though...well yeah enough talk of green...I'm afraid my babies will hear me.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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