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Offlinelonestar2004
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Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes.
    #3671770 - 01/24/05 12:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

to crack down on spa prostitution.

"it was just so widespread. it had almost gotten in your face."

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory/3005716

so getting naked, and prostituting yourself is better then being a prostitute?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3671789 - 01/24/05 12:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Fucking legalize and regulate already... idiots.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3671850 - 01/24/05 12:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I blame the puritans. They put a nasty downard flat spin on the american sexual perception.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3672155 - 01/24/05 01:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Isnt this entrapment?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3672375 - 01/24/05 02:42 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Prostitution=bad. It is exploitation. No woman is a prostitute because she likes it, but rather because she either feels she couldn't do anything else, or she couldn't make money doing anything else.

If we are legalizing prostitution we might as well repeal rape and child labor laws too.

However, I think seducing and then arresting patrons is definately entrapment.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3672664 - 01/24/05 04:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Drug dealing = bad. No drug dealer is a dealer because he likes it, but because he felt he couldn't do anything else, or make money doing anything else. He obviously has no choice in the matter, and feels bad about it.

If we were to stop going after drugs we might as legalize torture and murder.


You've got to be bullshitting me. Making prostitution illegal works as well as the War on Drugs. If it's legal and regulated, we could help stop the spread of STDs and AIDS by testing the prostitutes and regular patrons, and make them have more protection. We could ensure all prostitutes were above age and mentally competent. Women have the choice what to do with their body, and if they want to pursue the "oldest profession in the world," that's up to them. What right do you have to tell a woman what to do with her body if she doesn't harm anyone else, and if both the man and the woman are consenting? Your view on prostitution is the same view that has put so many millions in jail for drugs in this country


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Ravus]
    #3672687 - 01/24/05 04:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

^^^Exactly. It's stupid to make consentual behavior illegal. People are going to do it either way, so it's best to reduce the harm caused by it. In fact, with legal prostitution, you could prevent the practice of sexual slavery by setting up legitimate enterprises and screening job candidates. It's worked great in Nevada, as well as many European countries like the Netherlands.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3674053 - 01/24/05 09:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Prostitution=bad. It is exploitation. No woman is a prostitute because she likes it, but rather because she either feels she couldn't do anything else, or she couldn't make money doing anything else.




I love you mostly, but, who the fuck are you to decide what a woman wants to do. Or man for that matter. Maybe, just maybe she/he's a nympho. Maybe they take pride in a job well done. Maybe, if we didn't have such ridiculous strictures on sexual behaviour this would be normal. Maybe it should be. Maybe it should be respectable.

Quote:

If we are legalizing prostitution we might as well repeal rape and child labor laws too.




Consent, turkey, consent. Once again, you have no business telling any adult how they should make their living, as long as they don't hurt anyone else.

Quote:

However, I think seducing and then arresting patrons is definately entrapment.




Why arrest anyone? Except a knowingly diseased hooker or john. That's an assault. And why are johns any less guilty than the whores.


--------------------


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3676122 - 01/25/05 05:10 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

People should have the right to sell their body. If someone is willing to pay, they should be allowed to sell.

:thumbdown: to Divided_Sky
:thumbup: to Phluck


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3676258 - 01/25/05 07:21 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

yup it should be legal like somebody said its safe and regulated in Nevada, and it works. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3676293 - 01/25/05 07:39 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

> Prostitution=bad. It is exploitation.

Illegal prostitution often leads to exploitation.


> No woman is a prostitute because she likes it

Ah, so you know the mind of all women. Personally, I can't even understand a single woman, let alone all women.

> but rather because she either feels she couldn't do anything else, or she couldn't make money doing anything else.

I have known one prostitute, from Nevada where it is legal. She was putting herself through college and only worked one or two weekends a month. She could make more working one weekend than most of us make in an entire month. She did it for the money, not because she couldn't do anything else, or couldn't make money doing anything else. She was most definitely not a victim and would get very annoyed when people took pity on her.

> If we are legalizing prostitution we might as well repeal rape and child labor laws too.

Golly, if we legalize drugs, we might as well repeal murder and antitrust laws too. What do rape and child labor have to do with legal prostitution? Absolutely nothing! Is it legal to be a prostitute in Nevada? Yes. Is it legal to rape a woman in Nevada? No. Is it legal to force a child to work in Nevada? No.

> However, I think seducing and then arresting patrons is definately entrapment.

Why? If prostitution should be illegal because it is abusive to the women, should we not do everything in our power to take the preditory men off the streets?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3676309 - 01/25/05 07:56 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I don't find anything wrong with prostitution as long as she isn't walking around full of deseases. Just like drugs, people should have the right to do it as long as an adult is consenting. I bet there would be less rape and sexual problems if this were legalized.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (01/25/05 08:34 AM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677116 - 01/25/05 11:56 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

No woman is a prostitute because she likes it, but rather because she either feels she couldn't do anything else, or she couldn't make money doing anything else.

You need to read more. There are actually quite a few escorts who do what they do because they enjoy it, and they are often activists for sex worker's rights.

The most famous, perhaps, being The Happy Hooker: http://www.xavierahollander.com/
Here's an article for the body mod e-zine done with several escorts who discuss their work, they certainly fall into the catagory of women who enjoy it: http://www.bmezine.com/news/pubring/20050112.html

Much of the problems associated with prostitution are caused by the laws against it. If pimping were illegal, prostitutes had to have licenses, were checked regularly for disease, and were able to work in a secure, safe location, then there would be less disease, less mistreatment of the women, and if they were abused, they'd be able to go to the police without worrying about being chastised and laughed out of the building.

If we are legalizing prostitution we might as well repeal rape and child labor laws too.

That's like saying "if we legalize marijuana, we might as well legalize murder too", it's a complete non-sequiter that has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand, and only serves as an attempt to try and equate the legalization of prostitution with real crimes, without the slightest attempt at justification.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677188 - 01/25/05 12:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Much of the problems associated with prostitution are caused by the laws against it. If pimping were illegal, prostitutes had to have licenses, were checked regularly for disease, and were able to work in a secure, safe location, then there would be less disease, less mistreatment of the women, and if they were abused, they'd be able to go to the police without worrying about being chastised and laughed out of the building.



Define "pimping." If you owned and ran a legal brothel, wouldn't that essentially be pimping?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677190 - 01/25/05 12:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Divided Sky... prostitution= bad

maybe

i have talked to prostitutes who said they enjoy it. i have also met some who said they are doing it so they don't starve to death.

but i do know the police could be spending their money and time on something else.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Paou]
    #3677208 - 01/25/05 12:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Define "pimping." If you owned and ran a legal brothel, wouldn't that essentially be pimping?

I think you'd be more of a manager then. The pimps tend to control the women, they seem to act a lot like the women are their slaves.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677220 - 01/25/05 12:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What you're describing is a behavior, not a profession.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Paou]
    #3677233 - 01/25/05 12:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Isn't a profession a set of behaviours that results in income?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677238 - 01/25/05 12:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The behavior you described has nothing to do with the way a pimp makes his money. A pimp is essentially a manager for his prostitutes, much like a manager for a band or actor or model.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Paou]
    #3677253 - 01/25/05 12:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The fact that they often take all the profit, and provide room and board for the prostitutes, without allowing them to leave is also part of how they make their income.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677259 - 01/25/05 12:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps a dictionary definition will solve this conflict:

pimp ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pmp)
n.
One who finds customers for a prostitute; a procurer.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Paou]
    #3677276 - 01/25/05 12:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Do legal brothel owners like to be called pimps? The dictionary isn't able to tell you all the social connotations a term has, and pimp certainly has a lot of negative ones. If I were running a brothel where I was doing my best to treat the prostitutes like real human beings I certainly wouldn't want to be called a pimp.

Does a clean, independant, intelligent escort meet the dictionary definition of 'whore'? Yes. Is it fair to call them a whore? No.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677293 - 01/25/05 12:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It doesn't matter if they like to be referred to as pimps or not. They meet the definition. More importantly, if you were to write a law that outlawed pimping, how would you go about writing it in such a way that legal brothel owners were excluded?

PS: The owner of the Bunny Ranch in Nevada didn't previously consider himself a pimp, but after looking it up in a dictionary, had to agree that he was indeed a big pimp.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Paou]
    #3677295 - 01/25/05 12:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What I was saying is that generally speaking the only reasons a woman will have sex with total strangers, including nasty old men and abusive sadists, for money is because a) she makes way more money than she would at a legitimate job,b) because she has no other avenue.

Because of the fact that this is for MONEY I don't think it is consensual. I'm not a marxist, but I believe that socioeconomic conditions can force people into lives and circumstances that they do not want. In these cases I think the woman does not have a choice, therefore painting it as an issue of consensual sex with a monetary donation is dishonest. To me that falls under the category of exploitation.

Biologicaly speaking, an enormous body of scientific evidence shows women are not adapted to constant sex with random people all the time. I believe genetics play an important part in gender dispositions, and for the most part prostitution is incompatible with the female psychology. Just because men like to have sex all the time with whoever, and would like to justify a woman's ability to gratify them for a fee, does not mean it is healthy for the woman. That is projection, and a self-justifying one at that.

My parrallel with child labor laws is maybe kids do want to work. Maybe their families are poor and they feel they need to. So does that mean we should let them drop out of school and become indentured servants at the salt mines when it is going to ruin their lives and their chance for a future?


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Edited by Divided_Sky (01/25/05 01:00 PM)


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677325 - 01/25/05 01:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
What I was saying is that generally speaking the only reasons a woman will have sex with total strangers, including nasty old men and abusive sadists, for money is because a) she makes way more money than she would at a legitimate job,b) because she has no other avenue.



Why do you get to decide which jobs are "legitimate" and which ones aren't? You know, strippers have to put up with nasty old men too, but somehow that's legal. Should it be?

Quote:

Because of the fact that this is for MONEY I don't think it is consensual. I'm not a marxist, but I believe that socioeconomic conditions can force people into lives and circumstances that they do not want.



There is no force. They simply choose the best of all options available to them. If they were not better off for it, they would not choose it.

Quote:

In these cases I think the woman does not have a choice, therefore painting it as an issue of consensual sex with a monetary donation is dishonest. To me that falls under the category of exploitation.



And to many of them it doesn't. Sorry, but you don't get to choose for them what is exploitation and what isn't. They've decided that this is how they are willing to make their money. You say they do not have a choice, but what does that leave them with if they don't have this option available to them?

Quote:

Biologicaly speaking women are not adapted to constant sex with random people all the time.



And yet it's the oldest profession in the world. Methinks you might not have the best understanding of biology.

Quote:

I believe genetics play an important part in gender dispositions, and for the most part prostitution is incompatible with the female physiology. Just because men like to have sex all the time with whoever, and would like to justify a woman's ability to gratify them for a fee, does not mean it is healthy for the woman. That is projection.



It is projection on your part to assume to understand women. How the fuck do you know what they want?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Paou]
    #3677339 - 01/25/05 01:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Aren't you doing the exact same thing? If I am making assumptions then you are making the opposite assumptions. Who are you to say women aren't exploited in prostitution and that they do it because of free choice and that they enjoy it?

If it REALLY is such an unknowable thing then I think presuming prostitution is ok is less ethical and responsible than that it is not. Until you know for sure it is wiser to err on the side of caution, especially when you are dealing with the wellbeing of other people.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677342 - 01/25/05 01:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Aren't you doing the exact same thing? If I am making assumptions then you are making the opposite assumptions. Who are you to say women aren't exploited in prostitution and that they do it because of free choice and that they enjoy it?



Actually, that's not for me OR you to decide. It's for them to decide.

Quote:

If it REALLY is such an unknowable thing then I think presuming prostitution is ok is less ethical and responsible than that is is not. Until you know for sure it is wiser to err on the side of caution.



I suppose we could apply the same principle to any form of labor, and we could all become a communist society.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677351 - 01/25/05 01:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Because of the fact that this is for MONEY I don't think it is consensual.

What about the ones who enjoy it? I gave you links to some, did you read them? Are you saying they're liars?

Biologicaly speaking, an enormous body of scientific evidence shows women are not adapted to constant sex with random people all the time.

What research? How can that even be proven? I mean, you can show an average sex drive and desire that's lower than that of what a prostitute does, but there are ALWAYS going to be people who want lots of sex with lots of different people, just because they don't represent the average doesn't mean anything. Human bodies certainly aren't adapted to run marathons on a regular basis but that doesn't mean some people don't do it well and enjoy it.

This is just the same "women don't like sex" bullshit that people believed up until the Kinsey research in the '60s.

My parrallel with child labor laws is maybe kids do want to work. Maybe their families are poor and they feel they need to. So does that mean we should let them drop out of school and become indentured servants at the salt mines when it is going to ruin their lives and their chance for a future?

A child and a full grown woman are two different things. By that logic, we should be making all jobs that aren't a good career move illegal.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677358 - 01/25/05 01:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Pauo, your first response was sneaky. I just said I don't think women have a choice in the matter, and you did, so you are simply asking me to agree with your argument. Most of the time prostitutes don't get to decide.

Your second response is unreasonable because it assumes that sex for money is no different than any other job. I don't know of many other jobs that tread so ambigiously upon the boundaries of rape. Therefore the issue deserves special consideration.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677369 - 01/25/05 01:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
By your first response you are being tricky. I just said I don't think women have a choice in the matter, and you did, so you are simply asking me to agree with your argument. Most of the time prostitutes don't get to decide.



They provide sex for money. Sure sounds like a decision to me. We are not talking about sexual slavery here, which is another matter altogether. We are talking about a voluntary economic transaction. They have as much choice in the matter as a factory worker does in his profession.

Quote:

Your second response is unreasonable because it assumes that sex for money is no different than any other job. I don't know of many other jobs that tread so ambigiously upon the boundaries of rape.



How is it like rape? They provide a service people want for a price people are willing to pay. It's just like any other market transaction. I don't see what's so difficult to understand here.


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677370 - 01/25/05 01:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Who are you to say women aren't exploited in prostitution and that they do it because of free choice and that they enjoy it?

If they enjoy it, where's the crime? Yes, people are exploited for money, that is the entire basis for the concept of 'employment'. By that logic it is unethical to pay anyone to do anything, because they are being exploited even if they enjoy it.

Prostitution is illegal now. Is that helping anyone? Has this made prostitution any less of a problem? How many womens lives are better off since they were arrested for prostitution? How is a the prostitute exploited any less by being unable to go to the police when she's abused?

How is a system that forces prostitution underground less exploitative than one that forces it to follow regulations designed to make the business safer for everyone invovled?


--------------------
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677375 - 01/25/05 01:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Most of the time prostitutes don't get to decide.

But if all the big money in prostitution was going to licensed brothels, there would no longer be money in forcing women to be prostitutes.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677386 - 01/25/05 01:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Phluck, I am not talking about Victorian science. Modern day research shows that males are more sexually stimulated visually, and are more adapted to having alot of sex with different partners. Females are less visually stimulated, more inclined towards monagomous relationships, and having sex all the time because it will get them PREGNANT. They are also programmed with a stronger parental instinct so in general they are more prone to want stable relationships so they can raise children.
However, alot of research has shown that females are also disposed to marry the nice guy that will be there in the long run, and then at a point in their cycle have sex with the macho asshole guy to get his genetics. There is nothing flowery about that. Women are designed to have stable relationships with nice guys, but cheat and then get knocked up by football players.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677394 - 01/25/05 01:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I would like to point out that I think it should be up to a woman to decide when she's being violated. Not some man who thinks he knows what's best for her, and demands she follows his own standards of morality.

Gays used to be considered victims of a horrible disease that needed to be cured.

Hell, women who showed a sex drive used to be considered victims of a horrible disease who needed to be cured. Female circumcision, horrendous devices that would crush the genitalia, and all kinds of other bizarre therapies were treatments for "hysteria". Nowadays, we've realized that women are intelligent people who are capable of making decisions for themselves, and have every right to sexual satisfaction.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677401 - 01/25/05 01:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Most of the time prostitutes don't get to decide.

But if all the big money in prostitution was going to licensed brothels, there would no longer be money in forcing women to be prostitutes.




This is true, but I still see a problem if we create a scenario where women make MORE money as prostitutes. Why be a social worker, or a nurse and actually help people, when you will make way more money as a prostitute? I think it is a serious problem when society rewards potentially unhealthy behaviors and penalizes virtueous ones.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677413 - 01/25/05 01:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Phluck, I am not talking about Victorian science. Modern day research shows that males are more sexually stimulated visually, and are more adapted to having alot of sex with different partners. Females are less visually stimulated, more inclined towards monagomous relationships, and having sex all the time because it will get them PREGNANT. They are also programmed with a stronger parental instinct so in general they are more prone to want stable relationships so they can raise children.

Do some more research, and you'll find that such studies only show an average. There are still lots of women who enjoy sex with different partners, and lots of men who would prefer monogamy. There are also lots of women who are more visually stimulated, and lots of men who are more emotionally stimulated.

There are also theories that question the idea that women are more geared towards monogamy than men, the ideas you're referencing are theories that people have presented, not solid proof of anything.

Plus, we don't know how much these differences are based on learned behaviour, or if they're biologically ingrained in us.

The worst thing about the way the media presents these studies is the fact that journalists don't have much scientific training, and are trying to create a good story. Then someone takes what they read and re-interprets it into a broad generalization of every single person of a certain sex or group.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677424 - 01/25/05 01:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think it is a serious problem when society rewards potentially unhealthy behaviors and penalizes virtueous ones.

But if a bunch of precautions are taken, how is it unhealthy?
How is being a prostitute less virtuous than working at McDonald's, or at a car factory?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677430 - 01/25/05 01:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well I mean there is logic to this as well. Humans evolved before condoms so having sex used to have a biological outcome, having children. By nature males want get their genes spread around, and by nature females don't want to have sex all the time because then they would always be having kids. Regardless if they enjoy it or not, that was not the main consideration 15,000 years ago. We are thinking in terms of 21st century recreational sex without consequence. Such things have only recent become possible.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677437 - 01/25/05 01:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Quote:

Phluck said:
Most of the time prostitutes don't get to decide.

But if all the big money in prostitution was going to licensed brothels, there would no longer be money in forcing women to be prostitutes.




This is true, but I still see a problem if we create a scenario where women make MORE money as prostitutes. Why be a social worker, or a nurse and actually help people, when you will make way more money as a prostitute? I think it is a serious problem when society rewards potentially unhealthy behaviors and penalizes virtueous ones.



Just out of curiosity, are you a socialist? You seem fixated on the socialist idea that a product or service is worth something other than what people are willing to pay for it.


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677447 - 01/25/05 01:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

If you read my other posts I think the answer would be obvious. I'm just not a libertarian or social liberal.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677498 - 01/25/05 01:47 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm well aware of the theory, but there is an opposing theory in psychology as well, I'm looking for a link on it now.

Either way, it doesn't matter though, because there are lots of women who enjoy promiscuous sex, no matter what the average is.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677514 - 01/25/05 01:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Helen Fisher is an evolutionary psychologist, some quotes from her in an ABC article:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=230011&page=2

Evolutionary anthropologist Helen Fisher says she doesn't believe women are naturally more monogamous than men.

"I think we're going to come to find, as women become more economically powerful and express their sexuality more during the course of this century, that women are just as adulterous as men," she said.

Fisher's evidence begins in the bird world.

"Warbler females seem to have a call or a song that they give out when their husband is out of town in order to attract extra mates," she said.

And in most mammalian species, Fisher said, both the male and the female are totally promiscuous

According to Fisher, it's rooted in the Stone Age. "Millions of years ago, if a woman had an extra lover, she would get extra meat from that male. She could get extra protection from that male," she said.

And she could get extra sex as well.

20/20 spoke with a woman, who asked to be identified only as Jennifer, who was happily married for five years, but was until recently seeing another man. She said no one, including her husband, can provide everything ? especially good sex.

"You need one that their touch makes every hair on your body stand on end and just makes your heart race a million miles an hour and you haven't left the bedroom," she said.

And when she would leave her lover after a night of passionate sex, she said she didn't have an empty feeling or wonder when she would see him again.

"Complete opposite. It was like, 'I just had amazing sex, and he's gone, thank God. I have the bed to myself. ' "

Jennifer is human proof that women today may not be more monogamous than men. Since her lover moved away, she's been looking for a new sexual partner through an online dating service for spouses who want to fool around.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Phluck]
    #3677908 - 01/25/05 03:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'd like to point out that even if women are better suited to stable, monogamous relationships and that this makes prostitution immoral, following that same logic, we must conclude that it is immoral for men to not be sexually promiscuous, as we are better suited to spreading our seed.


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Paou]
    #3677912 - 01/25/05 03:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Hehe, good point.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3677946 - 01/25/05 03:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The main flaw of yours is that you seem to think making prostitution illegal will solve all these problems. Women are already prostitutes, and some are underage, some are forced into it, some are not competent to decide. And you know why this is? Precisely because it is illegal. If we legalized prostitution, women would not be able to be pressed into it more than any other career, because like any other profession only the people who were best suited and most enthusiastic about the job would get it.

Not to mention, where do you come off deciding that you, a man, can choose what an adult woman can and can't do with her own body? The difference between child labor laws and legal prostitution is legally, children aren't competent to decide for themselves until they're adults. Prostitution would be adult women, tested for STDs and taught their profession, and focused on preventing the harm on the inevitable act of prostitution, rather than leaving it up to the gangsters and the black market to pressure underaged women into it. You saying prostitution should remain illegal doesn't help women at all, it hurts the ones who are already doing it even more than any legal career could.

Look at what you're arguing for, and you will realize that it is precisely aligned with the rationale for illegal drugs. Studies can say that after people try drugs, they're hooked and therefore can't make their own decisions, so they should be put in jail, eh? Nobody chooses to do drugs, they are pressured into it by their social environment or others, and indeed it would be best if we put them all in jail to stop this social evil.

And notice outlawing prostitution has worked no better than outlawing drugs. Legalize drugs and prostitution :thumbup:


--------------------
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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Ravus]
    #3678066 - 01/25/05 04:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I don't support the legalization of all drugs, nor do I support people who sell crack and heroin to high school kids. With drugs, particularly of psychedelic variety, this deals only with an individual. There is no transaction between multiple parties and there is no exploitation involved. Performing sexual favors for money is completely different because it involves one party coercing another through money.

And as far nobody chooses to do drugs, what are you talking about? I chose to do them! Nobody made me. No peer pressure, no teenage rebellion. Nothing. I was just interested. Prostitution IS NOT the same. Nobody gets on the internet, reads about being a prostitute and thinks "hey maybe I should try that instead of going to college!" With drugs there is much more free choice than sucking dick or starving.

And when you push the issue by the idea of morality being arbitrary, hell why not have child prostitution? If the kids want it, and who are we as adults to say they don't? That is exactly the argument you are using. You're distinction between the free will of a child and an adult is just as abitrary. There are many children in this world that have more power then some adults living in slavery. Does that mean that the child has no ability of choice, whereas the adult slave does? You are damn right morality is arbitrary, but in this case I believe it is well justified and I would be an uncompassionate and degenerate person to let some abstract moral relativity/ayn rand bullshit make me turn a blind eye to the suffering involved in the sex industry.

This reminds me of that argument I used to hear how about how leaving Saddam Hussein in control of Iraq was actually respecting their free choice. After all, they didn't like being ruled by a brutal dictator, then why don't they just get rid of him? How dare we not respect Iraqis right to be oppressed?! How culturally insensitive?!
Oppression is not a right, and it does not deserve to be respected.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Edited by Divided_Sky (01/25/05 04:26 PM)


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3678146 - 01/25/05 04:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

By the way. I don't believe that arresting prostitutes works. I believe arresting their patrons does.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3678378 - 01/25/05 04:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I don't know of many other jobs that tread so ambigiously upon the boundaries of rape.



And my job is just like slavery because if I refuse to work they don't pay me.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3678491 - 01/25/05 05:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You are damn right morality is arbitrary, but in this case I believe it is well justified and I would be an uncompassionate and degenerate person to let some abstract moral relativity/ayn rand bullshit make me turn a blind eye to the suffering involved in the sex industry.

A. The sex industry is inevitable. There has never been a society without it.
B. All the abuses and and suffering in the sex industry are things that would never be permitted in any sort of legal/controlled environment.
C. If the sex industry were legal/controlled, the government would have to prosecute people based on their involvement.


Again, why should educated and intelligent women who choose to be prostitutes because they want to, not be allowed to do that?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3678506 - 01/25/05 05:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


This reminds me of that argument I used to hear how about how leaving Saddam Hussein in control of Iraq was actually respecting their free choice. After all, they didn't like being ruled by a brutal dictator, then why don't they just get rid of him? How dare we not respect Iraqis right to be oppressed?! How culturally insensitive?!
Oppression is not a right, and it does not deserve to be respected.


An oppressive regime that has demonstrated to be oppressive is one thing, while an unregulated profession were SOME of the people involved are oppressed is another thing entirely.

A more accurate analogy would be like solving the problem with oppressed Iraqis by making it illegal to be an Iraqi. Instead, the US went in and is attempting to change the government to a better, more fair system. Instead of just outlawing prostitution, get rid of the evil pimps, and create a more fair system.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Edited by Phluck (01/25/05 05:30 PM)


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Re: Police disrobe to uncover sex crimes. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3678611 - 01/25/05 05:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Performing sexual favors for money is completely different because it involves one party coercing another through money.




Coerce: To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation.

It is definitely not coercion. If prostitution were legal, prostitutes would set a price for their services, and people would pay them. Prostitutes would not have to deal with being pressured, threatened or intimidated, because if it were legal, they could get the police involved, just like any other industry. They could have body guards there to handle people if they tried to "coerce" anyone. A prostitute has the right to say no, and if she says yes, and both parties are consenting adults, why should you of all people come between them and say they can't have sex because you don't like her career?

Quote:

And as far nobody chooses to do drugs, what are you talking about? I chose to do them!




That's exactly what many prostitutes in Nevada would say about their prostitution if you said to them prostitutes have no choice in the matter, that they have to fuck to survive. Bullshit. And as for prostitutes not going to college? Nice stereotype, but not true, if you read about legal prostitution many are going to college and only doing prostitution as a part time way to get money.

Quote:

And when you push the issue by the idea of morality being arbitrary, hell why not have child prostitution?




I never said morality was arbitrary first of all, I have no idea where you got that from, and why we don't have child prostitution is the same reason we don't allow 10 year olds to work 15 hour days. They are not developed enough and do not have enough life experiences to know if they are getting paid the right amount, what is acceptable in the workplace and how many hours is too much. Our society said the age when someone is able to think and choose for themselves is 18 (or 21), and if that applies to moving out, choosing their college, choosing their job and work hours, choosing where they want to live, why would you tell them they cannot legally choose a career like prostitution? If someone is legally responsible enough to live on their on, get a job, go to a school of their own choosing and are the age society deemed an adult, then they should also be able to choose what they want to do with their life as long as they do not harm anybody else. If prostitution were legal, both parties would have full consent, and nobody would be harmed, so there is no reason to restrict it.

Quote:

but in this case I believe it is well justified and I would be an uncompassionate and degenerate person to let some abstract moral relativity/ayn rand bullshit make me turn a blind eye to the suffering involved in the sex industry.




Again, the majority of suffering in the sex industry is there because it is illegal. Do you know why drug dealing is such a good option to those who are poor and starving? Again, because it's illegal, and so they can jack up the price on the black market without even needing to deal with a legitimate job or getting help. If prostitution was legal, people wouldn't go to those who needed to suffer on the streets to live, and those who suffer would get help. They would go to qualified legal brothels, where the prostitutes are consenting adults, and give them a good living or extra income to pay for college.

Quote:

Oppression is not a right, and it does not deserve to be respected.




Finally, we agree on something completely. Oppressing two adults who are completely consenting, sending them to jail and pushing harsh fines on them, is one of the sickest things in this society, and should never be respected. If an individual does not harm anybody else, if a prostitute is consenting and has sex with a completely consenting individual, yet they get sent to jail for that, that is oppression at its worst.

You say you would not arrest the prostitutes, only their patrons? What help would that serve that prostitutes? Nothing at all, that's exactly the type of "blind eye" that you spoke of turning to the issue a few posts earlier. The prostitute would still be an illegal prostitute, having sex with strange unknown men instead of being in a legal qualified industry where the patrons can be recorded and known and the prostitute's safety is much more insured rather than having her walk the streets late at night


--------------------
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