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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Registered: 05/22/02
Posts: 2,511
Explain how bush makes the poor poorer....
    #3671308 - 01/24/05 06:34 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

People say Bush's "Tax cuts for the rich", which was actually a "TAX CUT FOR EVERYONE" somehow magically made the poor poorer despite the fact that the poor were also given a tax break, hundreds of thousands dropped from the rolls completely, therefore Poor must equal more money, if the poor are now poorer. Good day.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3671335 - 01/24/05 06:56 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

He'll make them poorer because bush hates poor people. :smirk:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3671363 - 01/24/05 07:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Now this is just silly. I'm not going to say whether or not the tax cuts will actually serve to make the rich richer or the poor poorer, but at least use google to find some websites that support that argument and try to understand the basis for it before posting something like this.

Did you make any attempt whatsoever to try and understand the opinion before coming on here to bash it?

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/591/

"The bill will do little to boost the economy, largely because it is so unfair. More than two-thirds of the new tax cuts will go to the richest 10 percent of taxpayers, and more than half to the richest 5 percent, according to Citizens for Tax Justice (CTJ). Only 7.8 percent will go to the bottom 60 percent. The richest 1 percent will average almost $100,000 a year in tax cuts over the next four years, CTJ calculates. Bush contends that the average family would get $1,000 in tax cuts and every taxpayer will see a tax cut. But the cuts for the bottom 60 percent will actually average less than $100 a year, and more than one-third of all households?including millions of taxpayers?will receive no tax cut at all in 2003."


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Registered: 05/22/02
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: Phluck]
    #3671395 - 01/24/05 07:31 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Now this is just silly. I'm not going to say whether or not the tax cuts will actually serve to make the rich richer or the poor poorer, but at least use google to find some websites that support that argument and try to understand the basis for it before posting something like this.

Did you make any attempt whatsoever to try and understand the opinion before coming on here to bash it?

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/591/

"The bill will do little to boost the economy, largely because it is so unfair. More than two-thirds of the new tax cuts will go to the richest 10 percent of taxpayers, and more than half to the richest 5 percent, according to Citizens for Tax Justice (CTJ). Only 7.8 percent will go to the bottom 60 percent. The richest 1 percent will average almost $100,000 a year in tax cuts over the next four years, CTJ calculates. Bush contends that the average family would get $1,000 in tax cuts and every taxpayer will see a tax cut. But the cuts for the bottom 60 percent will actually average less than $100 a year, and more than one-third of all households?including millions of taxpayers?will receive no tax cut at all in 2003."




I fully understand the logistics behind it. Your post in no way shows that the poor are getting poorer as a result. Just because they don't get as much money back, due to the fact they pay less taxes doesn't make it unfair. If we were both go to a baseball game, and you paid 10 dollars for a ticket, and I paid 100, and the game got rained out, should we both get back 55 dollars? No, you should get back what you put in, plain and simple.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3671399 - 01/24/05 07:33 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It isn't so much that the poor get poorer, but rather the poor get a little bit while the rich get a whole lot. One could argue that since the rich put in more, they should get more back. Personally, I don't see why anybody is getting anything back. With the huge problem lil' Bush has with spending our money, he needs to hold on to as much of it as he can find. Of course, it is the next President that will have to deal with the problem, so why should he care...


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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3671414 - 01/24/05 07:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Your post in no way shows that the poor are getting poorer as a result.




Depends how you look at it. It does show that Bush is doing nothing to stop the ever widening gap between the rich and the poor, in fact he is helping to increase it. So relatively speaking the poor ARE getting poorer.

Quote:

Just because they don't get as much money back, due to the fact they pay less taxes doesn't make it unfair.




Once again its the relative size of the tax breaks that is unequal, not just the amount, in real terms, each group is receiving in tax breaks.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: GazzBut]
    #3671434 - 01/24/05 08:12 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

Depends how you look at it.

Exactly. One can look at it rationally, using words according to their accepted definitions, or one can try to "spin" it -- as you seem intent on doing when you argue:

So relatively speaking the poor ARE getting poorer.

No, "relatively speaking" the poor in America are not getting poorer at all -- the poorest of the poor are not increasing their prosperity as rapidly as the richest of the rich. That's not even remotely close to a situation where the poor get poorer, "relatively speaking" or not. The poor are getting less poor, and have been doing so for decades.

It does show that Bush is doing nothing to stop the ever widening gap between the rich and the poor, in fact he is helping to increase it.

In a free society, nothing anyone does will stop those with ability from increasing their prosperity except to seize ever-increasing amounts of what they earn from them against their will.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: Phred]
    #3671757 - 01/24/05 12:05 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

No, "relatively speaking" the poor in America are not getting poorer at all




Of course they are! If the gap hetween the rich and the poor has widened then the poor of today are, in that sense poorer than the poor of the past.

You say the poor have been getting less poor for decades..do you just mean their standard of living has improved? Are you taking inflation into account? Wheres your proof please?

Quote:

In a free society, nothing anyone does will stop those with ability from increasing their prosperity except to seize ever-increasing amounts of what they earn from them against their will.





So it doesnt matter how many unfair tax breaks the rich bestow on themselves at the expense of the poorer sections of society, in the end poverty boils down to a lack of talent, ability and motivation.

Boy they washed your tiny little mind good!!


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Always Smi2le


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Registered: 05/22/02
Posts: 2,511
Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: GazzBut]
    #3671999 - 01/24/05 01:22 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What happens when rich folks get tax breaks? They:
A. Save the money, which the bank uses to provide people with loans.
B. Buy stocks which benifits corporations, thus increasing their revenue, and thus the amount of taxes paid.
C. They spend it, thusly employing people who manufacture the goods, people who manufacture the machinges to manufacture the goods, people who manufacture the parts to manufacture the machinery, people who teach people physics to make the machines, etc...
D. They give it to charity

Why shouldn't the people who pay more get tax breaks? The top 50% of the country pays 96.7% of the total taxes, yeah thats a really heavy burden left on the bottom 50%....


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Offlinewietstocker
product ofevolution

Registered: 07/14/03
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3672661 - 01/24/05 04:09 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

When the rich do not put as much of a percentage of their pie back into the economy, their wealth continues to amass, thereby leaving less overall available moneys to be earned by the general public. Putting more money (much of which will not affect set standard of living/luxury) into government thereby ensures that it has the chance to be redistributed across the economic spectrum. Let's face it, the money that the rich bitch about having to pay in taxes is not coming from their grocery fund, or their mortgage account, it is coming from the plush, comfy cushion of wealth which they sit and smugly smile upon.

I agree that many poor people are in their holes due to personal choices they've made, but at the same time I realize that it takes money to make money and when these people have nothing, they have little chance of building a mountain (wealth... freedom) from within their hole.


Bottom line:
No one NEEDS vast amounts of wealth. Why continue to store nuts in a hole when your stocks are already sufficient. Which brings me to another pet peeve which are the people who assume they're doing something good for their family when they leave them fat trust funds to rely on. Money doesn't buy happiness. It only sells souls, and causes depression among those who take it for granted.


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Echoes


Edited by wietstocker (01/24/05 04:13 PM)


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: wietstocker]
    #3672719 - 01/24/05 04:36 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Do you really believe that the rich dig a hole in their back yard and bury their money? Their money is in the economy.

And remember that you don't really "need" a lot of things you have, but does that give someone the right to take those things from you?


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinewietstocker
product ofevolution

Registered: 07/14/03
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: z@z.com]
    #3672906 - 01/24/05 05:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There's a problem when some people DON'T get what they NEED. Food, shelter... Even with buying everything they don't NEED, the rich continue to amass vast wealth.

Even with money in the economy, in the event that they actually lose that money, chances are it will go to some other rich guy that one-upped him. It's not like the workers at the bottom of the ladder get an influx of income when their company makes a little extra.

Drop by drop the wealth trickles back to ground level... gush by gush it is pumped back to the top.


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Echoes


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Offlinemethikist
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Registered: 03/16/04
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: wietstocker]
    #3673151 - 01/24/05 05:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Wealth is not usually an accurate reflection of ability. If anything, lucky heredity.


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Invisibledaussaulit
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Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3673173 - 01/24/05 06:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
People say Bush's "Tax cuts for the rich", which was actually a "TAX CUT FOR EVERYONE" somehow magically made the poor poorer despite the fact that the poor were also given a tax break, hundreds of thousands dropped from the rolls completely, therefore Poor must equal more money, if the poor are now poorer. Good day.



I don't know how it happened, but it happened. Here is it, from your favorite conservative news source.
Census: Poverty, Uninsured Numbers Rise
Quote:

Thursday, August 26, 2004
WASHINGTON ? The number of Americans living in poverty increased by 1.3 million last year, while the ranks of the uninsured swelled by 1.4 million, the Census Bureau (search) reported Thursday.

It was the third straight annual increase for both categories. While not unexpected, it was a double dose of bad economic news during a tight re-election campaign for President Bush.

Approximately 35.8 million people lived below the poverty line (search) in 2003, or about 12.5 percent of the population, according to the bureau. That was up from 34.5 million, or 12.1 percent in 2002.

The rise was more dramatic for children. There were 12.9 million living in poverty last year, or 17.6 percent of the under-18 population. That was an increase of about 800,000 from 2002, when 16.7 percent of all children were in poverty.

The Census Bureau's definition of poverty varies by the size of the household. For instance, the threshold for a family of four was $18,810, while for two people it was $12,015.

Nearly 45 million people lacked health insurance, or 15.6 percent of the population. That was up from 43.5 million in 2002, or 15.2 percent, but was a smaller increase than in the two previous years.



Clearly, his tax cuts did make the poor poorer. If they didn't get the money, someone else must have, the rich.


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Offlined33p
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Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: daussaulit]
    #3673258 - 01/24/05 06:22 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daussaulit said:
Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
People say Bush's "Tax cuts for the rich", which was actually a "TAX CUT FOR EVERYONE" somehow magically made the poor poorer despite the fact that the poor were also given a tax break, hundreds of thousands dropped from the rolls completely, therefore Poor must equal more money, if the poor are now poorer. Good day.



I don't know how it happened, but it happened. Here is it, from your favorite conservative news source.
Census: Poverty, Uninsured Numbers Rise
Quote:

Thursday, August 26, 2004
WASHINGTON ? The number of Americans living in poverty increased by 1.3 million last year, while the ranks of the uninsured swelled by 1.4 million, the Census Bureau (search) reported Thursday.

It was the third straight annual increase for both categories. While not unexpected, it was a double dose of bad economic news during a tight re-election campaign for President Bush.

Approximately 35.8 million people lived below the poverty line (search) in 2003, or about 12.5 percent of the population, according to the bureau. That was up from 34.5 million, or 12.1 percent in 2002.

The rise was more dramatic for children. There were 12.9 million living in poverty last year, or 17.6 percent of the under-18 population. That was an increase of about 800,000 from 2002, when 16.7 percent of all children were in poverty.

The Census Bureau's definition of poverty varies by the size of the household. For instance, the threshold for a family of four was $18,810, while for two people it was $12,015.

Nearly 45 million people lacked health <a href=http://www.0cat.com/?qq=777 insurance>insurance</a>, or 15.6 percent of the population. That was up from 43.5 million in 2002, or 15.2 percent, but was a smaller increase than in the two previous years.



Clearly, his tax cuts did make the poor poorer. If they didn't get the money, someone else must have, the rich.




First of all the label of poor is given out way to loosely. If you look up the qualifications for being in poverty you might be surprised.

As well it takes a long time for any presidential action to take have noticeable effects, so that article is not an accurate representation of reality. I think it takes about 5 years for noticeable effects to clearly surface.

And if you dont pay taxes would you expect to get a tax refund?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: d33p]
    #3673937 - 01/24/05 09:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Fucking mind boggling. Let's see the total number of poor increased by 1.3 million. Of that, 800 thousand (more than half) were children. Maybe, just maybe, some of you here might notice a correlation between having children you can't pay for and being dragged into poverty along with them.

As for a health insurance crisis, 84.4% of the population has health insurance. That is quite enough. There is no reason whatsoever to do ANYTHING to raise that number. It is no surprise that 15% of the population would not be interested in paying for health insurance and we should not force them too.

As far as the taxes go you should check out http://www.taxfoundation.org/prtopincometable.html
Of course the rich got most of the tax breaks. We pay most of the taxes I can't say that enough. We pay most of the taxes Most of you are dependant on the taxes we pay. Almost none of you pay your equitable share You receive more services than you pay for or probably ever will


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3673944 - 01/24/05 09:15 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry d33p, you were just last and I forgot to select.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #3674097 - 01/24/05 09:45 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

You know what they say:

"The righ get richer, the poor get more numerous."


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3674135 - 01/24/05 09:50 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

And more odoriferous. Fucking bathe, will ya


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Explain how bush makes the poor poorer.... [Re: GazzBut]
    #3676155 - 01/25/05 05:52 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

If the gap hetween the rich and the poor has widened then the poor of today are, in that sense poorer than the poor of the past.

Not in the slightest. The gap can widen in several different ways:

1) -- the net worth of the rich remains steady while the net worth of the poor decreases
2) -- the net worth of the rich increases while the net worth of the poor remains steady
3) -- the net worth of both groups increases, but that of the rich increases to a greater extent than that of the poor
4) -- the net worth of the rich increases while the net worth of the poor decreases

In scenarios 1 and 4, the poor actually get poorer. In scenario 2 the poor remain steady. In scenario 3 the poor get less poor.

Scenario 3 is the one applicable to the US. I've posted the proof for this in several threads in this forum here in the past that you have read.

So it doesnt matter how many unfair tax breaks the rich bestow on themselves at the expense of the poorer sections of society, in the end poverty boils down to a lack of talent, ability and motivation.

That's not what I said. Re-read the statement I made. It doesn't say that in the end poverty boils down to a lack of talent, ability, and motivation (although those are three contributing factors in many cases) it says that the only way to prevent those who possess those attributes from increasing their net worth is through forcibly seizing the products of their efforts from them. Not the same thing at all, my dear GazzBut.


pinky


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