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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: spudamore]
    #3664330 - 01/22/05 10:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The attitude speaks for itself. Maybe you don't see it, but as a person who HAS had anger issues in the past I see it. My personality shines out all over my posts as does anyone who enjoys writing. It is unavoidable. No offense intended, but you seemed to have a really hostile response to the parent post...if it offended you so much you could have not posted...but you did. That very action speaks for itself.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching *DELETED* [Re: spudamore]
    #3664343 - 01/22/05 10:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x



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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: poke smot!]
    #3664819 - 01/22/05 11:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

actually i was joyous and laughing the whole time i was posting that.

No offense intended, but you seemed to have a really hostile response to the parent post...if it offended you so much you could have not posted...but you did. That very action speaks for itself.

did you take your own advice? like the parent post suggested?


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suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: incubaby_421]
    #3664944 - 01/23/05 12:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

incubaby_421 said:
if you werent a dick would you be here. does somebody have an inferiority complex becuase they have no life????




please refrain from talking about the people here and instead discuss the ideas.

we have all been dicks before, no one is special.

this idea rings true in my eyes because whatever you are thinking is a result of your past experiences. when you give someone advice it's from your perspective. it's how you would have handled a situation.

there's great benefit in looking at what you advise to others so we don't fall into the trap of "do as I say not as I do" kind of mentality.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: kaiowas]
    #3665226 - 01/23/05 12:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

we have all been dicks before, no one is special.

After my dickechtomy, I am a much nicer person.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePed
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: Swami]
    #3665635 - 01/23/05 02:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

>> For the next month (or the rest of your life) you are to notice all of the advice that you give to others and realize that you (and I) are just talking to and guiding ourselves.

This can be interpreted in one of two ways:

1) That in giving advice to other people, we are deepening our own understanding of that advice and thereby guiding ourselves into that behavior.

2) That there is no ultimate distinction between ourself and others, that other living beings are of the same single entirety as ourself, and that when we are offering advice to others we are in fact giving advice to extensions of ourself as part of a single being.


If your intention was to communicate the first interpretation of your post, then ignore the rest of what I have to say. What I have to say has to do with the second interpretation of your post. If your intention was to communicate the second interpretation of your post, then I'd be very interested in hearing what you have to say, because it may put you and I, perhaps for the first time, on the same page in a philosophical matter.

For the sake of this discussion, we need to suspend any perceptions we have of ourself and others as plural beings. We need to conceive of ourself and others as being part of the same essential body.

If we conceive of living beings in this way, when we impart advice to them it is the same as imparting advice to ourself. By the same token, then, the actions we bring to others must be actions that we bring unto ourself. For example, if we are angry at another person, we are angry at ourself. If we see something in another person and fall in love with them, we are falling in love with an aspect of ourself. In the reverse, if someone has become angry at us, we have become angry at ourself. If someone has fallen in love with us, they have fallen in love with themselves. Remember, we are not conceiving of a distinction between ourself and the other: together, we are parts of a larger whole with it's own singular nature.

Now, suppose that we create suffering in another living being by injuring them out of anger. If they are merely an extension of ourself, why are we not in pain as well, physically, mentally, or otherwise? Why do we remain angry while they cry in despair? After all, if they are of the same essential being as we are, injuring them out of anger should not be dissimilar from smashing ourself with a hammer. But we do not feel injured. In fact, we might have a feeling of satisfaction, of victory.

Before I can continue, I must posit the question: Where does suffering come from? In the preceding example, suffering was caused by an action; it was the effect of an action. Suffering was the intended effect. In the preceding example, suffering, the effect, arose as the result of a cause, the action, which itself was the effect of another cause: an intention. So we have a chain of cause and effect which gave rise to the appearance of suffering: intention, action, suffering. So this is one avenue by which suffering appears.

Where do other sufferings come from, though? Sufferings such as sickness, headaches, accidents, hunger? Nobody sets out to give us a headache. A headache arises on it's own. Nobody decides that we will become hungry and be without food. These are circumstances that happen on their own. We might contract a virus from another person, but that person had no intention to make us sick. Where do sufferings like these come from? It seems irrational to suppose that suffering simply assembles around us and manifests in the form of headaches and starvation. Suffering is an effect, and all effects must have a cause.

What if all suffering was the result of a single cause? We already understand that some suffering is the effect of a certain cause: actions with hurtful intentions. What if all suffering was this way? Before we could consider that possibility, we must also consider the notion that there is no ultimate distinction between ourself and others, and that other living beings are of the same single entirety as ourself. Only upon considering this view would we be able to consider that the actions that we bring to others might serve as causes for our own experience.

Remember when we injured that person we were angry with? We did not experience suffering of our own in that moment, but it is a gaurantee that we will experience suffering of some kind in the future. In the past, we have committed countless hurtful actions of varying degrees of severity against other people. In the future, we will experience countless sufferings of varying degrees of severity, many without any intervention from another person. Suppose the distinction between individuals does not exist: might this suggest a correlation between action and experience? Considering the many multitudes of actions we engage in, and considering the totality of our field of experience, a delay between actions brought to others and experiences manifest unto ourself should not be unexpected.

Karma is a sanskrit word meaning action. It also refers the effects of actions: karma is the total accumulated effect of many actions. It is a special instance of cause and effect whereby our actions are the cause and our experiences are the effect. From a karmic standpoint, the totality of our experience is the result of our own past actions, accumulating over aeons into vast degrees of complexity. In fact, from the karmic standpoint the biological complexity of the human organism is seen as the necessary result of many concious actions of prior simplicity: evolution itself is driven by karma, action, as the condition necessary to sustain a single conciousness of increasing complexity.

If karma is to be considered a natural law like electromagnetism or thermodynamics, it must first be understood that the boundries between ourself and others are not real, that our own conciousness is part of a single, greater conciousness. Is it true? Do you believe in karma, Swami?


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Edited by Ped (01/23/05 02:18 AM)


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OfflineSensismoker
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: Ped]
    #3665784 - 01/23/05 02:35 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Ped said:
What if all suffering was the result of a single cause?


I say

-all suffering is the result of our separation from God.

-all suffering is caused by us in other words, sin.


Edited by Sensismoker (01/23/05 02:40 AM)


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OfflinePed
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: Sensismoker]
    #3665954 - 01/23/05 03:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

How did you arrive at that conclusion? On what is it based?


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: Ped]
    #3666399 - 01/23/05 04:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Do you believe in karma, Swami?

Why should I? There is no basis for karma except as a borrowed teaching. That is not good enough in my eyes.

Today a good man was killed trying to stop a robbery here in Vegas at a McDonald's. He had noble intentions and lost everything he had. As I do not believe in reincarnation, that seems strong evidence against karma. And the fact that karma believers have to jump through all kinds of illogical hoops to "explain" why these things happen, puts me in even greater doubt, if that is possible.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: Swami]
    #3666496 - 01/23/05 05:06 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

karma believers have to jump through all kinds of illogical hoops to "explain" why these things happen

Can you expand on that a bit please?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: Jellric]
    #3667032 - 01/23/05 10:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"The Ultimate truth, is a lie."
-Period :wink:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: Swami]
    #3667042 - 01/23/05 10:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

that's an interesting proposition, and i think i'm going to explore it


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Offlineincubaby_421
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: vampirism]
    #3667380 - 01/23/05 01:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

forgive my vulgarnish and general rudeness and the fact that i ignore the rules.

I WONT BE CENSORED
AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



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OfflinePed
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: incubaby_421]
    #3667844 - 01/23/05 03:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

>> There is no basis for karma except as a borrowed teaching

I just gave you a basis, though. I was hoping we could discuss that. It's not necessary to borrow teachings. We can borrow the term and it's meaning, but only for the sake of convenience.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: Ped] * 1
    #3668042 - 01/23/05 04:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

has this turned into the same continuous discussion that we have been having or do I deceive myself again?
i.e. "I like karma and you don't bcause you don't see proof?"

as usual I might just add that there are 2 karmas, One is the karma for dummies (which I don't buy at all) that says everything from:
"your suffering is due to a previous life of gluttonny"
to "that monster will suffer in his next life."
and "this lottery winning must be due to something good I did a long time ago."

the other karma, the one which I can handle, deals with your own ongoing personal experience editor, dispensing pain and pleasure along the way appropriate to what you personally believe you deserve.

i.e.
if you deserve good results from having been decent to self and others, you let yourself enjoy the good moments and are inured to the unpleasant ones. i.e. more pleasure.
and
if you deserve bad results from laziness or outright hateful intent, you filter out every opportunity for pleasure and intensify your own pain.

now it does start to sound like the initiating post (of this thread) in that we are learning from ourselves, and that still might be more metaphysical than anyone suspected would come from the pentagenerian swami raquetballer.


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OfflinePed
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3670259 - 01/24/05 01:21 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

>> has this turned into the same continuous discussion that we have been having or do I deceive myself again? i.e. "I like karma and you don't bcause you don't see proof?"

No, not at all. I thought that with the point emphasized at the beginning of this post, Swami and I had the opportunity to discuss from the same perspective a certain issue that we disagree on, karma. It doesn't matter to me whether or not Swami believes in or understands karma. It would be nice, though, if him and I could find something in common philosophically.


>> as usual I might just add that there are 2 karmas

I'd like to address your points further, but I only have a moment here at the computer. The kind of karma I'm talking about has to do with every action we engage in and every experience we enounter. There is no facet of our experience that is not the result of past action, and there is no action which does not contribute to future experience. It might take a minute of contemplation to fully appreciate the ramifactions of this view -- it's not a view which suggests that karma is something magical that steps in arbitrarily to "settle the score" or to "level the playing field." It is a view which is relevant to our entire scope of reality; it addresses the seemingly inexplicable momentum behind life itself.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: Ped]
    #3671517 - 01/24/05 09:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

you are right about the fabric of existence being knit with karma, that would be my 2nd meaning of karma, the one I can abide by, though I like to leave it in psychological terms and let the mystery of the holographic gestalt mind sequence karma engine emerge at the student's pace.

the first karma is karma for dummies. that is the karma that most people revert to discussing: "he deserves this because of that"...
karma for dummies is a linear measure cause and effect rule of god.


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Offlineergot
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3671540 - 01/24/05 09:46 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What are we guiding ourselves to??! An application of 'oneness' is not an ultimate teaching. :thumbdown: Actually, it's just an abridged version of Ken Wilber it seems... and he's a fool, too.

I really dislike when "mystics" claim we are all one being and every ego is merely the mask of that one eternal being. Then, these so-called mystics start theorizing about where we are going and giving all sorts of meaning and purpose... it's all BS--your BS. We're all one and we're all separate. Get over it, already. You don't have the truth and you never will.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: ergot]
    #3671622 - 01/24/05 10:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

we have the truth of what we are (inside)

a clue of where we have been memory and history

and no idea about where we are going. (the gambling game is a racket)

(I am not happy about ken wilbur either)


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InvisibleCosm
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Re: The Ultimate Teaching [Re: Swami]
    #3671667 - 01/24/05 11:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

swami said "As I do not believe in reincarnation, that seems strong evidence against karma"

your disbelief is evidence, wow.

if someone has believed something for 1000's of years and it cant be disproved i have no reason to doubt them.


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