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InvisiblePaou
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Registered: 09/23/04
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: Catalysis]
    #3665806 - 01/23/05 12:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well, for one thing, I don't think Kerry would've needed bullet-proof glass.

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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3665847 - 01/23/05 12:46 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ld50negative1 said:
It seems to be the poplar consensus that you KNOW that you have the possibility of going into combat when you join the service...  :rolleyes: 




Yes, but speaking as a former service member here, you also have faith when you sign on that dotted line that if you do have to go to war and put your life at risk that it will be for the protection of our country and our freedoms. This war is not for the protection of our country or our freedoms. That faith that was bestowed upon the powers that be, has been crushed in the eyes of many soldiers who fight in this war. So, :rolleyes: roll your eyes all you want. Not everyone who fights does so because they believe in the cause.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3666511 - 01/23/05 03:11 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have to say that i agree with both sides of this conversation are saying.

Yes Bush spent too much money on his inauguration, and yes Kerry would have done the same.

Yes FDR was dieing when he had his low key inaugural, but that was not the reason he had it like that. He was a man of principal. The people loved him so much that they had to make a law so that if some young guy like him comes along we dont end up with the same man as president for 50 years.

Honestly zappaisgod, if you are defending Bush, which you were, then you must believe him to be a good guy. If Bush is a good guy then FDR was a fucking saint.

Oh and I agree those "lefty protesters" as you call it were in the wrong, but thats the mob mentality. Right wingers in a mob would have done the same thing probrobly worse if a left winger showed up at one of their rallys ranting and raving. Dont deny that you know its true. Let's not forget how crazy those Christian colition morons can get. Bombing abortion clinics, because its "god's will" I hope there is a hell because that's right where those idiots will be.

I get around a 28.8 connection, and i dont feel like waiting an hour to see some lady yelling at a fox news person, but if I did im sure that ld50negative1 would be right in calling her an idiot. He is also most likely right that the woman is just part of a fad. If you are like most of the people here, myself included, then its fun to see this, but it means nothing really. That Lady made no difference, in fact the White house probrobly wants things like that to happen just because it makes the intelligent people who voice the same opinoins sound like jackass's for thinking the same way.

ld50negative1 fox new may not be the SOURCE of Bush support but you cannot deny that it is weighted heavily to the right. This doesnt bother me though because I'm not as stupid as some people who dont think that most of the media is weighted to the left. It would be nice if there was a completely neutral news service, but alas that will never happen. So its best to get news from several different places before forming an opinion.

I do agree with you on one other point ld50negative1, I have no pity for the troops. In my opinion they got what they deserved for signing away their rights, just so they could either a) play with some deadly toys, or b)get money for college. I personally would never give away my rights just for either of those things. If however I had been alive during world war II i would have signed up the day after pearl harbor just like my grandfather did. You'll probly say that im just a pussy and would never sign up to serve, but you would be wrong. There is nothing wrong with serving your country, as long as there is some reason to do so, and as far as i am concerned there hasn't been an overriding reason to do so since WWII. Some would say 9/11 was a good reason, but Iraq certainly was not one.
So i feel no pity for the soldiers that Mr. Bush has sent to their deaths. They all knew it was a possibility when they signed up, especially if they signed up under Bush.

I do feel remorse for the families and friends of those dead soldiers that never wanted them to join in first. On the other hand there are the parents who forced their children to sign up and if their kids die i hope they think about it everyday. The kids themselves? well they didnt have the backbone to stand up to their own parents they shouldn't have signed up in the first place their mistake.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: blaze2]
    #3669234 - 01/23/05 06:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:

I do agree with you on one other point ld50negative1, I have no pity for the troops. In my opinion they got what they deserved for signing away their rights, just so they could either a) play with some deadly toys, or b)get money for college. I personally would never give away my rights just for either of those things. If however I had been alive during world war II i would have signed up the day after pearl harbor just like my grandfather did. You'll probly say that im just a pussy and would never sign up to serve, but you would be wrong. There is nothing wrong with serving your country, as long as there is some reason to do so, and as far as i am concerned there hasn't been an overriding reason to do so since WWII. Some would say 9/11 was a good reason, but Iraq certainly was not one.




Need I remind you that we must have active duty military service members ALL the time and not just in times of war? Not everyone who joins the military does so to "a) play with some deadly toys, or b)get money for college". I certainly didn't join the Marine Corp back in 99' for either of those reasons. I joined not to "sign my rights away", but to do my part in ensuring that my family, you, your family, and all the people of the United States of America stays safe and free from the evils that many around the globe so wish to bestow upon us.

If we follow your logic and only join after the conflict has happened then that will be too late. The enemy will have already struck and we as a nation would be helpless to defend ourselves without a current military in place. The ignorance of this type of logic astounds me. And your disrespect for those who "signed thier rights away" so that they may BE READY to protect you and everyone else in this nation when the time comes, honestly brings me a great deal of pain.

I feel sorry for you. I am sorry that for whatever reason, something clouds your vision so that you can't see just how noble a thing it is to join in the cause of providing to the people of this nation the security of knowing that should some crazed dictator in a far off land get a hair up his ass and decide to attack this country, that these brave men and women will be there to fight and give thier lives for the people of this country.

Not all acts are of a selfish nature, my friend, and not all who join in peace time do so with hopes of getting something in return. It is often a very selfless act that one gives from the heart, a small portion of thier rights and freedoms as a civilian and becomes a soldier in the service of others.


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OfflineXygyg
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3669378 - 01/23/05 07:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I deeply respect and admire those who chose military service, for whatever reason (as long as that reason isn't based on a desire to kill out of blind prejudice and hatred). To be willing to put one's life on the line for those who can't, or won't, is one of the most selfless and noble acts I can think of.
Having said that, I am completely sickened and disgusted at the way that these brave souls have been misled, used, abused, and generally disrespected by this current administration (and their corporate masters). I can't imagine how those in power can sleep at night or look themselves in a mirror knowing that they have sent these kids to risk life and limb for nothing more than hollow greed. They can try to spin it anyway they'd like, but in my eyes they're nothing more than theives, liars, and murderers without conscience.


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"There are no facts, only interpretations."
from Nietzsche's Nachlass

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OfflineMycoJunkie
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Registered: 11/04/04
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: Xygyg]
    #3669451 - 01/23/05 07:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Lol, Lots of conflicting opinions in this thread.

The chick on the right was definately right. Bush could have cut that $40 mil in half and sent $20 mil to buy some kevlar or armored humvees. Bush is a bastard, and for all the people who hate him with a passion, I'm surprised he lived to see the 2nd inauguration.


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:cussing::whip:

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OfflinePhred
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: MycoJunkie]
    #3669470 - 01/23/05 07:44 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sigh.

The same argument applied to Clinton. Adjusted for inflation, more money was spent on Clinton's second inaugural than was spent on Bush's. Did I hear anyone suggesting Clinton should have taken that money and spent it on relieving world hunger or buying better armor for the pilots bombing Kosovo? No, I sure didn't.

pinky


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: Phred]
    #3669880 - 01/23/05 09:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Im sorry that you are wasting time feeling sorry for me 13eetlejuice. There is no need for the size of the military that we keep around in times of peace period. There is not a single nation excluding our allies that would actually pose a threat that would require said military. I'm tired of seeing america being the "world police".

Also on a side note the war in iraq may have removed a dictator that as you put "may have got a wild hair up his ass, and attacked us", but it has established a workign training ground for terrorists. The insurgency in Iraq is largly terrorists and they like having a real enemy to practice on. Sadaam Hussien on the other hand just sat in his palaces, and...well didnt do much to threaten us. He didnt have weapons, and didnt have a nuclear program. People always like point out that he bombs his own people, true enough, but he hadn't done that since hte last gulf war.

So instead of a Ruthless Dictator we have an anarchy that will have a sham government, and will become the terrorist hotbed for years to come, jeez when you look at it that way its easy to why it was a good idea...

pink shark you are right clinton spent too much as well, i didnt hear anything at the time but i have since there has been a big deal made about bush.

But Bush did take it a step further, the security and the bullet proof stands that were built for him, and some other parade route expenses have always fallen to the city of DC to pay for then they are reimbursed by the Federal Government. It came out to 15 million dollars or something like that and the Fed gov. said that DC should use the money they had given them for Homeland security to pay for it. That is a fact not just some conspiracy theory. So instead of upgrading their fire fighters and hospitals DC is stuck paying for a fancy parade and some partys. Clinton and Kerry would not have done that. I have no doubt they would have spent near the same amount, but i know they wouldn't have given part of the bill to DC like that.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: blaze2]
    #3669905 - 01/23/05 09:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I wasn't addressing your views on the war in Iraq right now. If you'll read my previous post, I stated that I oppose it. I just felt I needed to respond to your comments about the troops who serve in the military. It's not thier decision when where or how they go to war. If you have a grievance with the way the military is run then please point your finger at the true culprits but don't badmouth the troops. It's just plain disrespectful.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3670044 - 01/23/05 10:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

well its the troops who sign up knowing that they are nothign but robots for the buracrats to give orders to. I have no respect for someone who would sign up for becoming a mindless killing machine no matter how they justify it to themselves.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Registered: 10/25/04
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: blaze2]
    #3670055 - 01/23/05 10:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps they don't think their service is being misused? That their masters might be misguided? Maybe you didn't notice but alot of these troops believe the opposite, that they are helping spread freedom and democracy. For them it is the most respectable job one can have.

There are some in the army who believe the war is wrong, but they DID sign a contract and they face court martial and jail for refusing to follow orders.


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: blaze2]
    #3670197 - 01/23/05 11:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
well its the troops who sign up knowing that they are nothign but robots for the buracrats to give orders to. I have no respect for someone who would sign up for becoming a mindless killing machine no matter how they justify it to themselves.



Simple question: Do you believe that there is a need for a military? Not necessarily the size we have now, but do you recognize that a nation, especially one as big as the U.S., requires a military to maintain the security of the country? If so, then shut the fuck up and give the soldiers the respect they deserve.

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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: blaze2]
    #3670542 - 01/24/05 12:32 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
well its the troops who sign up knowing that they are nothign but robots for the buracrats to give orders to. I have no respect for someone who would sign up for becoming a mindless killing machine no matter how they justify it to themselves.




Y'know it's funny how you spoke so highly of your grandfather and the sacrifices he made as a young man in WWII in a previous post and then here you call him a robot, killing machine, used to do the bidding of the bureaucrats. You also note that you have no respect for him no matter how he justifies his service to himself.

I think you're confused on this issue and need to give it a little more thought before posting your half-pondered opinions in public debate, making yourself look like an ass in front of your peers. That is all.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3671233 - 01/24/05 03:53 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

My Grandfather wasnt a robot he went and served his nation when he felt he needed to. He did not join until pearl harbor however. He would never have joined the military in a time of peace becaues there is no point. Other than WWII there hasnt been a fully justifiable war in the 20th century. The people who sign away their rights to participate in pointless murders for the "sake of national security" and "protecting our freedoms" are robots who buy into whatever their superiors tell them to do, and as such im not going to respect them.

I realize that the people who do sign up, at least some of them, believe they are trully serving the good of the country when they invaded iraq for instance. There is no argument there, but it just makes it easier not to respect them, because they are not only robots but stupid ones at that. Anyone who lets themself get sold on the idea that the war in Iraq is a noble cause deserves to spend a year and a half eating shitty food, and living in the fuckign desert. Personnally i think anyoen stupid enought o think that should get a Darwin Award.

As for the soldiers who did not agree with this war, like you said they face court marshall if they desert. But THEY gave up that right so i feel no pity for them they are dumbasses for signing up in the first place. And there are countries that give political assylum to american soldiers or government officials that want to get out of their job because they realized how stupid they were. I believe that Sweeden or Norway is one of them. Canada had a few cases, but i think the people up there lost and were sent back to the US. I'm Not sure on that one.

Yes i admit there has to be a military of some sort at all times, but if you read my post you would see that i said there is no need for one of the size we have during peace times. If there is a conflict of some sort i say that then there should be a open volunteer army and when the conflict is resolved, reduce the number back down. No matter how stupid a reason beuracrats decided is good enough to involve war, there will always be that certain type of person who will sign up. That way you only get people fighting for what they believe in and not have a bunch of people dissenting in the military. I still probrobly will not respect them but at least they would all respect themselves, and it would save money.

You people might say that there wouldnt be enough military if we were surprised attacked, but if we closed the ridiculous amount of military bases we have around the world then we wouldnt need as many troops. And as the military moves more and more into technology troops become less and less needed. The government has even acknowledged this. The bases are there because in the past we needed to be able to reach any point in the world in a short amount of time. There are aircraft, and missles, that can do this easily taking off from the US now making the bases obsolete. Ground troops arent going to prevent any surprise attacks anyway. In this day and age the only thing that could "surprise" would be a stealth aircraft and no marine or army man would be usefull against that. So i think it would be safe to say that the military would need a permanent command structure, and missile defense probly would need fighter pilots at all times too. the other groups in the military would be no help in the event we were surprise attacked. And any other sort of build up to war there would be enough time to get the people, who agree with whatever the conflict is, to sign up.

peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: blaze2]
    #3671293 - 01/24/05 04:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I've been insulted by you long enough. I joined in peace time and am not unintelligible robot by any means. You continue to contradict yourself at every turn and this conversation is going nowhere. You have thoroughly proven yourself and absolute moron and I believe this is where we just agree to disagree. I will leave you with this morsel of advice before I go; if you know not of what you speak, then keep thy fucking mouth shut.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3671341 - 01/24/05 04:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

oh dont get biblical on me now.

seriously tho its a difference of opinion and your right agree to disagree is the only real solution. Obviously your not a complete robot or you would never have come to a drug website, but for me i would have to a very very very good reason to sacrifice my rights. In end all you have are your basic human rights and to just sign them away.... I would definately have to have a better reason than "defending freedom" or one of eth other million cliches that the military uses. but thats just my opinion. try to take it easy, and make sure to keep your joints well oiled...... Just kidding.

peace

blaze2

EDIT: I forgot to mention that to me you seem to be a moron just as i appear to you. Just something to think about.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

Edited by blaze2 (01/24/05 05:02 AM)

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: blaze2]
    #3671497 - 01/24/05 07:06 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If there's one thing that pisses me off, it's patriotism. Scourge of the fucking world, it is.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: nice blow to Fox News (re: Bush's inauguration) [Re: blaze2]
    #3671526 - 01/24/05 07:31 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This thread has degenerated into a flame fest. Beetlejuice and blaze2, you're not posting in OTD. This forum has rules. I suggest you each review the forum rules before making your next post.

This thread is locked.


pinky


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