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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans.
    #3659211 - 01/21/05 05:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

http://www.edutopia.org/magazine/ed1article.php?id=Art_1195&issue=nov_04#

I tried to copy the text, but I couldn't seperate it from other garbage on the page.

What America really needs is a culture of self-education. That would solve so many things.

We should just pay kids directly to learn. If we paid the average 5th grader half of what it costs to teach them "the 5th grade" to learn it on their own, alot of them would jump on the chance and do a better job than a teacher could.

Every test would come with a little paycheck. If they make a 100 on this weeks's math quiz, they get $10.

If they finish the 5th, and 6th grade in one year and get all A's, they probably ought to make at least $5000 - $10,000 that year.

They should be allowed to do this until they are 18 years old whether they only make it to 8th grade, or finish a Ph.D.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3673737 - 01/24/05 08:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Mass education... just like how TV is the mass socializer. This way we all share a common understanding of the world that creates order for our mass gov'ts...


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3673795 - 01/24/05 08:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What we need to do is de-institutionalize the system and make it based, not on grade levels, but on thorough tests, certifications, and guided self-learning. I have some good ideas and I may post a paper on it at some point.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3673799 - 01/24/05 08:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I actually like the idea in theory...but don't think it would work in practice.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Rono]
    #3673993 - 01/24/05 09:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You do understand that this is going to serve to further bury any disadvantaged and minority children, don't you? How are the low earners going to feel when their friends and neighbors are socking away the bucks in school and they still can't afford a candy bar. How long do you think it will take for there to arise a Union of Underachievers (We try harder, that's enough!) demanding a more favorable distribution? I give it a week.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3674133 - 01/24/05 09:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If someone is underachieving, they would be put back in regular school, or given special education.


And probably reduced lunches as well.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Rono]
    #3674174 - 01/24/05 09:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. They could take a few classes, and self teach or homeschool some classes, and get paid for the ones they do themselves.


Basically it's just a combination of homeschool and vouchers where the parent would recieve money, and dole out whatever reward they wanted to give them. If the kids do all the work, they should get all the money. If the parent spends 8 hours a day spoon feeding them the material, then the kid gets fuck all for it except for the education.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3674187 - 01/24/05 09:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
What we need to do is de-institutionalize the system and make it based, not on grade levels, but on thorough tests, certifications, and guided self-learning. I have some good ideas and I may post a paper on it at some point.




i would be interested in reading some of your ideas.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3674252 - 01/24/05 10:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The beauty of it is, most people in the US are located 5-10 miles from a library which contains almost everything a student would need and with the growing popularity of electronic media, the government could spend it educational money expanding that resource as well.

The idea is not to abandon structure all together. Indeed, structure can still be maintained in a model of self learning. It has been shown that human brain development actually follows a semi-quantitative, time-based model and we can use that to our advantage.

You are correct in saying that a switch to an independent study model has the possibility of leaving more kids behind. However, this model will allow the education funds to be re-allocated to where they are needed. For instance, in the scheme i have developed, the grade level system would be reduced to 3 phases much like it already is but you would simply get rid of the subdivisions. Theoretically, it could be possible to divert 60-70% of our educational spending to phase I of the program (5-10 years old) to ensure that every child can have the proper tutorial devotion to ensure success in the latter 2 phases.

The idea is not to abandon structured learning altogether but to ween the children off of it as soon as feasibly possible. I believe that the opportunities of such a system could truly serve to propel a culture above and beyond any educational system known to date.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3674382 - 01/24/05 10:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

To expound on this idea further..

Any educated person knows the benefits of a well-rounded education.  This is a necessity that will need to be incorporated into the learning process much like it is in college today where, although you can choose your emphasis of study, every emphasis requires a diverse portfolio of successful education.

To get back to the basics, im sure we all know the follies of strictly time-based education.  It allows the underachievers to catch up to the overachievers at the overachievers expense.  That is hardly a beneficial system.  The problem is that everyone thinks we only have 2 options, leave the underachievers behind or hold the overachievers back.  This class based system is hardly what our society is capable of and an alternitive is possible, if not necessary to our success.  I propose that by introducing and acclimating our childeren to self-learning at an early age, we can divert more resources to the early development and preparation of our children for thier future success...more to come, i need a drink  :stoned:


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3674486 - 01/24/05 10:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Now the "3 phase model" of education is completely separated from the restrictions of age and status, however if done correctly, we will be able to analyze it statistically and, ideally, the average age of phase I will be about 5-12 years old, phase II will be 12-16, and phase III will be 16 and beyond. The beauty of this is that if these statistics begin to deviate, we can adjust the system of certification as opposed to holding people back or going through great lengths to advance those who are deserving of advancement. The system will inherently incorporate these "special people" by giving them the freedom to achieve while catering to the needs of those who require additional help.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3674634 - 01/24/05 11:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

To get into the nitty gritty..

Phase I

This is the first and arguably the most important phase. It begins when the child is kindergarden age and progressivly acclimates the child to the world of self-study. This will be the most tutor-interactive stage of the childs life and will hopefully prepare them for the latter stages.

The earliest years will be devoted to learning how to use resources such as the library and the internet to learn anything that the child is interested in. These first couple years (age 5-7) will be very liberal and non-restrictive in format. This will show the child the limitless opportunities out there and is a good starting point for the system.

This phase will be tutor intensive and followed by teachers who have been trained in the method. After the child has shown progress, he/she will be introduced to the certification system. This will be a system that is divided in subjects much like the current educational system. The certification system will simply be composed of comprehensive tests where the child is required to learn (with the help of tutors, not teachers) a certain amount of information on a subject. The best way to introduce a child to this system is to have them be able to choose thier own goals but have those goals require a number of diverse and unrelated certifications. This will ensure a good general education while preparing the young child for the future that lies ahead of them. Of course, this early phase will be progressive and the overall purpose will be to teach the child how to learn on thier own with the plethora of resources available and how to use thier wits to succeed in a system that replicates the real world which they will inevitably be thrust into.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3674724 - 01/24/05 11:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Phase II

This is where it gets interesting.  Once the child has achieved the appropriate certifications to move on to phase II, they will be exposed to a much more free system than phase I.  They will have a few required pre-classes to show them the possibilities of thier next level of education but after that, they will be largly left on thier own to decide thier paths.  However, the money that is now spent on highschools would be spent on tutors and counselors to be used at the students' disposal.

This is where my system is far superior to the GED system and, in my opinion, gives the lesser-achievers a better opportunity than the current system.  A number of certifications will be offered as alternitives to phase III, thereby eliminating the stigma of having a GED and being labeled badly for it.  For instance, this level of education will allow the student to pursue such certifications as those givin by microsoft and cisco for IT technology as well as several other specialties such as culinary arts or technical trades.  Phase II will essentially replace the position of college in our society and it will be even more liberal because it will be based mostly on comprehensive exams, giving those with a passion and drive the opportunity to rapidly achieve thier goals while also giving the kids who aren't sure about thier future a wider selection of options at an earlier age.

Phase III to come later.

edit: lol, sorry for posting so much in your topic. im just bored  :crazy:


Edited by Catalysis (01/24/05 11:37 PM)


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3677239 - 01/25/05 12:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Catalyis very interesting!

i once met a group of homeschoolers in the public library. the older kids (15-16) were helping the younger ones (12-14) study for the SAT. most of the older ones had already taken the SAT twice. two 16 year olds had full scholarships because they scored over 1400. (the university did not require a high school diploma, GED, or transcripts.)

after talking with them i realized that not only are public schools falling behind, but maybe even private schools.


and by-the-way the home school mom that i talked with was a high school drop-out.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleCalifornia
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3678414 - 01/25/05 05:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The title of this thread is inaccurate in relation to the content.
"raises Americans"-Yet the topic is education, not parenting. Schools do not raise children (or at least they shouldn't), Parents raise children.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3678435 - 01/25/05 05:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Catalyis very interesting!

i once met a group of homeschoolers in the public library. the older kids (15-16) were helping the younger ones (12-14) study for the SAT. most of the older ones had already taken the SAT twice. two 16 year olds had full scholarships because they scored over 1400. (the university did not require a high school diploma, GED, or transcripts.)

after talking with them i realized that not only are public schools falling behind, but maybe even private schools.


and by-the-way the home school mom that i talked with was a high school drop-out.




I went to a private school and roughly99% of graduates attended college (2 went to the military), and the average SAT score was 1290, which isn't too bad.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3678899 - 01/25/05 07:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Its funny when he discusses the text-book publishers.

Quote:

They all run around wondering, What's the coming thing? Is it critical thinking? Metacognition? Constructivism? Project-based learning?




I always used to get a kick out of my teachers who thought they were being "progressive" by following these trends and making us do pain-staking group exercises projects, and presentations. It wasn't until graduate school that I actually gained these skills because I actually USED them for something other than a grade. For instance, working within a research group who are all about the same level of skill, not because of age or status, but because they were given the opportunity to pursue thier interests. If this opportunity is given at a younger age, i think we can cut the crap and start really allowing our youth to learn.


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3679367 - 01/25/05 09:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think centralization has killed our school system. (Along with many other institutions)..

Different people learn in different ways. When they are all being taught under the same umbrella, different ways are not present. I, for example, learn best on my own, at my own pace, about my own interests. Self-teaching, I feel, is ideal in that it not only teaches the knowlegde, but teaches the ability to learn. I'd say its best when supplemented with some sort of mentoring.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #3679947 - 01/25/05 11:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I write better essays when I am paid to write them. That is... I write better essays for money, for people, heh. I don't really have an incentive to write an essay for myself to get a good grade. Now money, that's another story.


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Re: A peek inside the mindless machine that raises Americans. [Re: downforpot]
    #3684153 - 01/26/05 06:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I have a few thoughts to add:
1. parents are crucial in helping kids through school: public, private or any other form. Public school diden't help me get a 30 on my ACTs (I go to a Northwestern school where you take the ACTs rather than the SATs) My parents, though pushing me to learn, helped me achiceve.
2. Get the goverment out of the classroom, teachers are very capable of doing their job if they don't have to worry about losing their job when a kid doesn't score highly enough on an apptitude test.
3. promote free thinking, kids should be awarded for innovative thinking rather than punished.


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