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 snoopaloop53
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 Re: Glocks Rock  [Re: Supernova]
#3658915 - 01/21/05 03:00 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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the lever i'm refering to is built into the trigger and pulling it and the trigger is one and the same move. my friend who has a Glock 22 is getting a .22 conversion kit so he can plink with it too. how is the size of your sig in relation to also using it as a concealed carry weapon?
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d33p
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Re: Glocks Rock [Re: Supernova]
#3658975 - 01/21/05 03:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
supernova said:
you don't want to have to flip anything prior to firing. The sig is just a very well made pistol. I fired thousands of rounds and never had a jam, misfire, or any other problem with mine. Mine comes with two barrels, a .357sig and .40, which change out easily. The .357sig is a nice little short round that is good for practice. The .40 will stop a man dead but won't kill the person standing behind him, unlike a .45 that will go right through the first person and kill one or two more before stopping. You should test one out.
If you can't handle sliding a lever while upholstering a pistol are you sure you have the skill to fire the gun? To carry a concealed weapon you cannot be the panicky type and must remain cool at all times or else you might do something rash. Using a concealed weapon is not like dueling in the old west, it is best to avoid shooting someone at all costs. So you should not be firing immediately after taking out your gun, which would really be the only reason you wouldn't want a safety. Guns for self defence are meant to prevent the loss of life not aid in it.
Of course you already know all of this which is why it puzzles me that you would say that about safeties.
Also this is bs The .40 will stop a man dead but won't kill the person standing behind him, unlike a .45 that will go right through the first person and kill one or two more before stopping.
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 Supernova
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OK, yeah, that's all you want as far as a safety goes. Same thing comes on a sig. The first pull is a bit heavier and then every pull after that is like a third or less of the first pull. Mine is a nice mid-size carry and conceal. Here's a pic of the p229, which is the one I have:
http://www.sigarms.com/apps/cmt/img/p229-large.jpg
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snoopaloop53
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Re: Glocks Rock [Re: d33p]
#3659000 - 01/21/05 03:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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i don't know about not shooting immediately after taking your gun out. If you've exhausted all other means and you're willing to pull your weapon then you had better not be bluffing, b/c the other person just might call you. I do agree you should avoid shooting someone at all costs, so please don't think i just want to shoot somebody. It's just that by unholstering that firearm you need to be 100% ready to use it. just my opinion.
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13eetleJuice
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Being "ready" to use it is exactly what d33p was talking about, I think. I'm sure he's aware that if you pull it out that the situation could escalate to the point where you have to actually pull the trigger on someone. I think all he's trying to point out is that with practice it only takes 1/4 of a second to flip the safety during the act of unholstering and bringing your firearm up to target. Not to mention that it's all done in one motion so there's no time lost. AFter much repitition in practice you begin to do it without even thinking about it.
On another note, if you're actually using a holster, many designs allow for you to "drag the safety" across the holster as you remove the weapon. However, this usually isn't practical for most who carry concealed with a slim pouchlike holster positioned in an obscure location on the body.
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d33p
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Quote:
snoopaloop53 said:
i don't know about not shooting immediately after taking your gun out. If you've exhausted all other means and you're willing to pull your weapon then you had better not be bluffing, b/c the other person just might call you. I do agree you should avoid shooting someone at all costs, so please don't think i just want to shoot somebody. It's just that by unholstering that firearm you need to be 100% ready to use it. just my opinion.
You can easily slide the lever with your digit while unholstering the weapon normally. In no scenario would you pull a gun and shoot someone dueling style. This is the real world not the movies. If he has a gun trained on you and you think you can pull a movie stunt, you will only find yourself dead. If he is not immediately threatening you do not draw your gun firing dueling style.
Describe to me a situation where you think a safety would be a pitfall.
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snoopaloop53
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Suprnova: the one i fired it wasn't really like yours if i understand you correctly. the one i fired it was part of the trigger pull almost there was no difference between first round fired and subsequent rounds. that is a nice looking gun though.
Beetlejuice:i see what your saying after re-reading, but i am a firm believer that when you put the weapon on target rounds will be fired. and i agree that you can certainly flick the safety off with one motion coming out of the holster
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d33p
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Quote:
snoopaloop53 said:
i am a firm believer that when you put the weapon on target rounds will be fired.
If think this i hope you dont have a cwp. And when getting one please be sure to tell them this so they can fail you. Guns for self defense are meant to be a deterrents, not killing machines and property protectors.
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13eetleJuice
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Re: Glocks Rock [Re: d33p]
#3659252 - 01/21/05 03:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Actually, it's not a definate that you'd find yourself dead by pulling a pistol when someone already has a weapon trained on you. When I went through the CQB (Close Quarters Battle) course in the Marine Corps, the instructors cited many real life instances where accuracy goes completely out the window in a live situation, even with trained professionals. Here's two they told us of that stick out in my mind.
A police officer pulls a car over for a routine speeding ticket. The situation escalates and the officer asks the driver to step out of the vehicle. As the driver gets out he pulls a pistol and starts firing. The police officer pulls his firearm and does the same. The shootout lasted mere seconds and they both were within 10 feet of each other the entire time. They both fired thier weapons until they were out of ammo. The officer didn't regain control of the situation until he dropped his magazine and inserted another with 15 rounds. At this point the driver dropped his weapon and complied with the officers instructions.
Example two. An F.B.I. agent is in an elevator and notices that the man he is standing next to is a wanted fugitive. As he performs the arrest, the fugitive pulls a gun and a firefight ensues, in the elevator! The agent was able to shoot the other man only once in the hip. I forget exactly how many rounds were fired in this incident. I remember there were only like 3 round left in the F.B.I. agents gun and something like 3 or 4 rounds in the fugitive's as well.
These two accounts really amaze me. I'm sorry that I can't provide any links to these incidents as they were told to me and my class by our instructors. They insisted that these were true stories. It's just a couple examples to show how all your training can go out the window if you can't remain calm in a life threatening situation.
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snoopaloop53
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d33p i think you misunderstand me. guns are meant to be deterents, but if the situation gets to the point where it is needed then there really aren't any options left, and i'm not talking about "hey that jerk cut in front of me at the slurpee machine". i'm referring to situations like robbery, car jackings, etc.
beetlejuice, i've heard of similar type instances and know what you mean, what i'm trying to say is that if the gun is drawn then it needs to be a last resort (non military/law enforcement applications) and one needs to be fully prepared to fire and accept consequences otherwise walk away
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d33p
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Quote:
13eetleJuice said:
Actually, it's not a definate that you'd find yourself dead by pulling a pistol when someone already has a weapon trained on you. When I went through the CQB (Close Quarters Battle) course in the Marine Corps, the instructors cited many real life instances where accuracy goes completely out the window in a live situation, even with trained professionals. Here's two they told us of that stick out in my mind.
You are talking about marine training yet we are talking about this average joe, see the problem?
A police officer pulls a car over for a routine speeding ticket. The situation escalates and the officer asks the driver to step out of the vehicle. As the driver gets out he pulls a pistol and starts firing. The police officer pulls his firearm and does the same. The shootout lasted mere seconds and they both were within 10 feet of each other the entire time. They both fired thier weapons until they were out of ammo. The officer didn't regain control of the situation until he dropped his magazine and inserted another with 15 rounds. At this point the driver dropped his weapon and complied with the officers instructions.
First of all this is cop and we were talking about an average joe and the type of situation he would get in. I saw this on cops and the guy begins to fire before the cop pulls his gun. And also considering hes sitting in a car and the cop was able to duck and run around this situation is an extreme situation which this average joe will not find himself in. Also the guy did not have his gun trained on the cop, he just pulled and fired so this actually has nothing to do with what i was talking about.
Example two. An F.B.I. agent is in an elevator and notices that the man he is standing next to is a wanted fugitive. As he performs the arrest, the fugitive pulls a gun and a firefight ensues, in the elevator! The agent was able to shoot the other man only once in the hip. I forget exactly how many rounds were fired in this incident. I remember there were only like 3 round left in the F.B.I. agents gun and something like 3 or 4 rounds in the fugitive's as well.
Again this is an FBI agent and we are talking about an average joe. As well this situation took place in an extreme location and the fbi agent probably survived due to his close combat training, not his gun. Also in this case the criminal did not have his gun trained on the agent so it doesnt even apply to what i was talking about.
These two accounts really amaze me. I'm sorry that I can't provide any links to these incidents as they were told to me and my class by our instructors. They insisted that these were true stories. It's just a couple examples to show how all your training can go out the window if you can't remain calm in a life threatening situation.
The situation I am describing where you would fire are if the criminal makes threatening moves which these criminals do and the officers react accordingly. They had nothing to do with a gun being trained on them.
edit: also in your first example the cop got nailed in the abodomen i believe
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Edited by d33p (01/21/05 04:07 PM)
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13eetleJuice
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I see what you're saying, snoop. I think the talk about saftey's which brought on this train of thought has clouded the issue. From what I gather, you're not saying anything in defense/opposition to the use of a safety here. Your point is that one should only pull a gun once the situation has already escalated to the point where another person must die in order to resolve the situation. Am I correct in my understanding of what you are saying?
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snoopaloop53
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beetle juice, yeah that's the point i was trying to get at, eventually a situation may get to a point where that level of force is necesary.
d33p, i think what beetle juice is trying to point out that no matter what the training sometimes people get surprised or caught off gaurd and that having training doesn't mean someone will die it just means that rounds will be fired and you need to be ready to handle it consequences and all
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13eetleJuice
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Re: Glocks Rock [Re: d33p]
#3659339 - 01/21/05 04:12 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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You missed the whole point, d33p. Military or law enforcement training is irrelevant. The point I attempted to get across is that no matter who you are or what training you may or may not have, accuracy with a firearm can go out the window when faced with a life or death situation. Just as those highly trained men in the instances I provided missed, many, many times, so to can this criminal that has a gun pointed at you miss.
The point is that if you stay calm, and remember the fundamentals, there is a better chance that you can pull your firearm and accurately deliver 2 shots to the chest and 1 to the head in a precise and timely manner than one might at first assume.
As far as all your references to the fact that we're talking about "the average joe", I would hope that any person, average joe or not, would have at the least practiced with thier weapon to some degree whether it be in the back yard, at the shooting range, or some gun handling and safety course.
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d33p
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Quote:
snoopaloop53 said:
d33p i think you misunderstand me. guns are meant to be deterents, but if the situation gets to the point where it is needed then there really aren't any options left, and i'm not talking about "hey that jerk cut in front of me at the slurpee machine". i'm referring to situations like robbery, car jackings, etc.
beetlejuice, i've heard of similar type instances and know what you mean, what i'm trying to say is that if the gun is drawn then it needs to be a last resort (non military/law enforcement applications) and one needs to be fully prepared to fire and accept consequences otherwise walk away
I guess it was a semanitc misunderstanding. But still in those situations you gave as exmaple where you would pull your gun you should be prepared to fire your gun but you should not be expecting to shoot him. The goal of self denfense guns after all is to avoid the loss of life and limb.
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d33p
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Quote:
13eetleJuice said:
You missed the whole point, d33p. Military or law enforcement training is irrelevant. The point I attempted to get across is that no matter who you are or what training you may or may not have, accuracy with a firearm can go out the window when faced with a life or death situation. Just as those highly trained men in the instances I provided missed, many, many times, so to can this criminal that has a gun pointed at you miss.
The point is that if you stay calm, and remember the fundamentals, there is a better chance that you can pull your firearm and accurately deliver 2 shots to the chest and 1 to the head in a precise and timely manner than one might at first assume.
As far as all your references to the fact that we're talking about "the average joe", I would hope that any person, average joe or not, would have at the least practiced with thier weapon to some degree whether it be in the back yard, at the shooting range, or some gun handling and safety course.
First of all when i said "gun trained on you" i was specifically talking about a situation similar to the criminal being 5-10 feet away from you with his gun trained on you. In the situations you describe those officers didn't even have guns trained on them when they made their decisions to act. If you think you should try and pull your concealed weapon and shoot in the situation i described above you must be brain dead.
I didn't really expect that people would misunderstand my "gun trained on you" wording. This risk is not one someone should take, this is not the movies.
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Supernova
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Re: Glocks Rock [Re: d33p]
#3659435 - 01/21/05 04:26 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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The only reason to pull your gun on someone is to shoot them. Once you have pulled, you better fire. The decision to shoot can't be made after pulling. It must be made before. If that is not a decision that you can make, then don't carry a gun. You'll be much safer without one.
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d33p
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Re: Glocks Rock [Re: Supernova]
#3659440 - 01/21/05 04:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
supernova said:
The only reason to pull your gun on someone is to shoot them. Once you have pulled, you better fire. The decision to shoot can't be made after pulling. It must be made before. If that is not a decision that you can make, then don't carry a gun. You'll be much safer without one.
How the fuck did you manage to a cwp? That is completely wrong what you just said.
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Supernova
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Re: Glocks Rock [Re: d33p]
#3659452 - 01/21/05 04:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:
Quote:
supernova said:
The only reason to pull your gun on someone is to shoot them. Once you have pulled, you better fire. The decision to shoot can't be made after pulling. It must be made before. If that is not a decision that you can make, then don't carry a gun. You'll be much safer without one.
How the fuck did you manage to a cwp? That is completely wrong what you just said.
It is exactly the truth. If you pull a gun on someone you had better be pulling it to shoot. Otherwise they will be taking the gun from you and shooting your ass with it. The fact is that guns are dangerous. Carrying is a serious decision. Do not pull your gun on someone unless you intend to use it. You can disagree with me all you want. I'm cool with that. But what I'm saying is what any well trained instructor in gun safety will tell you. That's the fact.
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d33p
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Re: Glocks Rock [Re: Supernova]
#3659460 - 01/21/05 04:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
supernova said:
Quote:
d33p said:
Quote:
supernova said:
The only reason to pull your gun on someone is to shoot them. Once you have pulled, you better fire. The decision to shoot can't be made after pulling. It must be made before. If that is not a decision that you can make, then don't carry a gun. You'll be much safer without one.
How the fuck did you manage to a cwp? That is completely wrong what you just said.
It is exactly the truth. If you pull a gun on someone you had better be pulling it to shoot. Otherwise they will be taking the gun from you and shooting your ass with it. The fact is that guns are dangerous. Carrying is a serious decision. Do not pull your gun on someone unless you intend to use it. You can disagree with me all you want. I'm cool with that. But what I'm saying is what any well trained instructor in gun safety will tell you. That's the fact.
Well if you want to be charged with murder have a happy life in jail sir.
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