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OfflineMrBump
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Genesis and "the fall of man"
    #3648188 - 01/19/05 02:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat[d] of it you shall surely die."

why would God not want man to have knowledge of what is good and evil (morality)?

did he design man to be more instinctual (animal-like) or more slave-like?

if Eve knew of what was good and evil (right and wrong) she would not have been duped so easily by the serpant-- as opposed to God saying you cant eat of this tree just b/c i say so.

22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: MrBump]
    #3648208 - 01/19/05 02:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Morality is not a product of a higher being. It is dictated by social norms.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: MrBump]
    #3648220 - 01/19/05 03:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

To get into this

God Designed man to be tenders of the garden. Therefore they were mostly animalistic and did not know they were naked

When man ate from the tree of knowledge (A metaphor) He became aware that he was naked and was a man.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3648332 - 01/19/05 03:17 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

""And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat[d] of it you shall surely die."

why would God not want man to have knowledge of what is good and evil (morality)?""

why do you, twist the words in that direction?
:confused: :thumbup: :heart:


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: DNKYD]
    #3648344 - 01/19/05 03:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DNKYD said:
Morality is not a product of a higher being. It is dictated by social norms.




And from the Bible:
22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.

So yes, morality is a social structure of man. However, before we 'ate the fruit' apparently we didn't have the ability to create morality as we do now.

A quick look into anthropological studies of cultural morality will reveal we make and create our moral standards on a continual basis. That does not imply an objective moral standard. There is no 'progress' it is just what works at the time.

When man ate of the fruit and became like gods, able to 'know' right and wrong, we became dangerous to ourselves and the gods who liked to walk around the gardens, breathing the warm evening air.

Therefore, man was thrown out of paradise and left to his own devices. No longer in the care of intuitively guided actions, aka instincts, we had to learn how to conquer nature in order to survive. The rest is, as they call it, history.


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: NariusFractal]
    #3648545 - 01/19/05 03:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Correct. Morality also came from the Bible, which became a social norm. A higher power did not give us morality. The books that people wrote in the name of these false "gods" gave us morality.


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InvisibleCosm
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: NariusFractal]
    #3648561 - 01/19/05 04:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)


did he design man to be more instinctual (animal-like) or more slave-like?

interesting you would say that, i perceive he created us to be slaves.then we became aware and are becoming more like the gods that created us.


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OfflineMrBump
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: DNKYD]
    #3648577 - 01/19/05 04:05 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DNKYD said:
Morality is not a product of a higher being. It is dictated by social norms.




im not saying anything about God directing or giving us morality or a moral code.
i understand morality is dictated by society and its norms.

God knows whats right and whats wrong, why didnt he want us to know?
i dont feel anymore God-like having the knowledge of what is right or wrong...even if my moral beliefs were completely deifferent from anyone else's or society's.


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If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?


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OfflineSource
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: MrBump]
    #3648809 - 01/19/05 04:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe the knowledge of 'Good and Evil' refers to creating distinctions in our own mind. In Buddhist philosophy desire (chasing after the 'good') and revulsion (fleeing from the 'evil') create suffering. Nirvana is found when distinctions are abolished returning us to the 'Garden of Eden'.


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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: Source]
    #3648833 - 01/19/05 04:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe the knowledge of 'Good and Evil' refers to creating distinctions in our own mind.

I would agree with this. Metaphorically speaking, the "fall of man" may be just that. We've fallen from a state of non-duality into one of duality.


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InvisibleClark
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: ]
    #3649723 - 01/19/05 07:46 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The whole story of Genesis is a big goof as far as I can make out. My favorite part is when Noah, holiest man in all the world (and alone worthy to be saved from world-wide devestation) gets falling down drunk and sells his own son into slavery for an imagined slight.

But the part where God punishes Adam for an act he commited while unable to even tell the difference between good and evil is a classic "WTF?" moment as well.

I like to believe that in days of old, people enjoyed a good laugh over this farcical tale.


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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: Clark]
    #3650036 - 01/19/05 08:51 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Clark said:
The whole story of Genesis is a big goof as far as I can make out. My favorite part is when Noah, holiest man in all the world (and alone worthy to be saved from world-wide devestation) gets falling down drunk and sells his own son into slavery for an imagined slight.

But the part where God punishes Adam for an act he commited while unable to even tell the difference between good and evil is a classic "WTF?" moment as well.

I like to believe that in days of old, people enjoyed a good laugh over this farcical tale.




As most people miss... God isn't about who does the most right. He's all about who believes in and loves him. Also, Noah sold his son into slavery (whatever it was) because when he was passed out drunk his son looked at, mocked, and it seems looked at his father in a homosexual way (Noah was naked whilst passed out).

God destroyed the world because no one believed in him anymore

in response to the topic of this thread...



Choice.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: ]
    #3650613 - 01/19/05 10:49 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Max Headroom said:
Maybe the knowledge of 'Good and Evil' refers to creating distinctions in our own mind.

I would agree with this. Metaphorically speaking, the "fall of man" may be just that. We've fallen from a state of non-duality into one of duality.





I've have a theory on this which is based on the metaphysics of St. Augustine a and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Both of these guys said that everything which is is good. In the Genesis creation myth at the end of each day of creation it says that God looked at what he had created and saw that it was good. Aquinas says that goodness is a transcendental perfection. Transcendental is the conjunction of two Latin words, one meaning across, and the other meaning to cut. So a transcendental perfection is a quality which cuts across all levels of reality. To be is to be good. If goodness is equated with being, then evil is the lack of being; in St. Thomas's words, evil is a privation of being, a lack of a due perfection of the good. An example of this is a hole in a shirt. The shirt is good and the hole in it is evil. But the hole doesn't really exist; it is merely an absence of cloth in the shirt. In this model evil does not exist as a thing in itself, it is merely an absence of being, an absence of Good.

In the garden before the fall, man had knowledge; this is evident from his conversations with God and his naming of the animals. He had knowledge of things which exited, knowledge of being, and therefore knowledge of Good, for everything which is is good. When he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he did not gain knowledge of the good, for he already possessed this knowledge; the knowledge he gained was knowledge of evil, knowledge of the privation of good - knowledge of non-being - knowledge of that which does not exist. Having eaten and gained this knowledge, the first thing he noticed was that he was naked. Nakedness does not exist per se; it is merely the absence of clothing. He percived his nakedness as a lacking in his being. Duality interred into his mind. He was ashamed and hid himself from God. Hiding from God is the first consequence of original sin. Before the fall, man had free will, but because he had no knowledge of evil he could only choose good things. After eating the fruit and gaining knowledge of evil, Adam's freewill remained, but it was wounded and broken because he could then choose non-being/evil. Choices for non-being result in death. Thus death enter into the world with the original sin. This is why St. Paul reminds us that the wages of sin is death.


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: MrBump]
    #3651097 - 01/20/05 12:49 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

When I read 'Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World', Paul Staments adds a little blurb about magic mushrooms in ancient history. I can't remember his specific wording, but I remember there was a sublte suggestion that human beings may have gained their unique cognitive abilities from eating magic mushrooms. In other words, some primate ancestor of ours plucked a 'fruit of...knowledge of good and evil'. That suggestion blew my mind. I'm not saying I believe it, but it is an incredible thought: that humans became self-aware from psilocybin!

Putting that wild suggestion aside, I can say with certainty that magic mushrooms definitely do extend the bounds of conscious awareness, not just during, but after the psychidellic episode. 'Mental elacticity' is what I would call it.


Edited by soulmotion (01/20/05 01:14 AM)


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: soulmotion]
    #3651137 - 01/20/05 12:56 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In refference to the question of why God would not want Adam and Eve to partake of the "fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil"; I think it's alot like a parent sending their kids off to school for the first time. They don't want them to leave, but at the same time it is necessary. Why would God have created a "tree of knowledge of good and evil" in the first place if he didn't expect Adam and/or Eve to eat off of it? Obviously, God didn't need to eat it because, as he said after Adam ate it, "he is become as one of us, knowing good from evil", so God already had the knowledge. Also, as Shroomydan mentioned, God pronounced his creations as 'good', which included the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". If, on the other hand, Adam and Eve were obedient and never ate the fruit, what would've been their reward? They couldn't go to heaven because they couldn't have been righteous enough to deserve it if they never sinned; there has to be evil in order for righteousness to exist, and Adam would have to expirience evil to know what righteousness is. Do you really think that God created Adam and Eve to be his gardeners? BTW, who do you think God was talking to when he said "... he has become as one of us? That's a topic for another thread...


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: soulmotion]
    #3652960 - 01/20/05 11:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

who do you think God was talking to when he said "... he has become as one of us? That's a topic for another thread...




This has traditionally been seen as a reference to the Trinitarian nature of God. Three persons subsisting in one God Head.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: soulmotion]
    #3652973 - 01/20/05 11:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

When I read 'Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World', Paul Staments adds a little blurb about magic mushrooms in ancient history. I can't remember his specific wording, but I remember there was a sublte suggestion that human beings may have gained their unique cognitive abilities from eating magic mushrooms. In other words, some primate ancestor of ours plucked a 'fruit of...knowledge of good and evil'. That suggestion blew my mind. I'm not saying I believe it, but it is an incredible thought: that humans became self-aware from psilocybin!




Terence McKenna wrote a book about that theory. "Food of the Gods, The search for the Original Tree of Knowledge." In it he posits that the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was actually Psilocybe cubensis. It's an interesting theory, but in my opinion most of the book is wild speculation.


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Offlinen0xious
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Re: Genesis and "the fall of man" [Re: MrBump]
    #3654428 - 01/20/05 06:20 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thecornking said:
if Eve knew of what was good and evil (right and wrong) she would not have been duped so easily by the serpant-- as opposed to God saying you cant eat of this tree just b/c i say so.





I don't think that this is supposed to be taken literally, even if it is real and needs interpretation I don't think an all-loving God would try to deceive his creation from knowledge.


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