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OfflineHerbus
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Supplementation with Phalaris Grass
    #3645615 - 01/18/05 10:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, as most of you probably know, supplementing your mushrooms with Tryptamine produces some insanely potent mushrooms, specifically in Psilocin content. Now, for most of us the difficult part will be locating and administering the Tryptamine in an effective way. This is a hypothetical discussion on the possibility of feeding our mushrooms with Phalaris Grass.

First off, anyone interested should get a brief understanding of Phalaris Grass : http://www.erowid.org/plants/phalaris/phalaris_info1.shtml
Phalaris is a hardy aquatic/sub-aquatic plant that grows just about anywhere where necessities meet.

Secondly, this post pertains to Psilocybe Cubensis because it seems to be easiest to experiment with.

Third, I am far from an expert. Very far. So any knowledgable advice or input would be appreciated.

Forth, This is what Phalaris grass looks like


Fifth and final, if you live in Mendocino County don't consider this unless you're certain you will fail. If I hear word of 'abnormally chronic mushies' because somebody in my proximity made this work before me, I'll be very pissed and no doubt probably kill you.

The Ideas:

One would take the phalaris grass and cut it into managable pieces and evenly distribute into a casing layer of whatever you case with, notably straw... which is kinda grassy like phalaris! The problem here is sterility, can Phalaris grass be sterilized at 170 degrees fahrenheit without killing the alkaloids? Only one way to find out.

One would prepare a solvent (probably alcohol based) and soak the grass in it long enough to pull the alkaloids out. Then, one would simply soak straw or other suitable substrate in the alcohol/tryptamine mixture until the alcohol evaporates. Once dried, you use the straw as you normally would. Again, the question of sterility comes up, would it kill the alkaloids?

...Let's find out!

Using the extraction method posted HERE. Steam sterilize the phalaris grass (keep in mind if submerged in water there's a chance the alkaloids could be pulled out of the material if tryptamine is water soluble -I don't know-) and then perform the above extraction, of course this requires a bio-assay of the finished product... but for the sake of science! If the product works like DMT, it's probably DMT meaning that sterilization does not alter tryptamine content.

Obviously the conclusion is this... unless you live in Mendocino county or plan on selling mushrooms in Mendocino County (in California) please do experiment with this and post results, 'a friend of mine' intends to do the same thing!


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InvisibleMycomancer
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: Herbus]
    #3647664 - 01/19/05 11:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

This is an interesting idea, worth trying out IMO.  Well firstly, I'll think you'll be fine with not destroying you alkaloids, 170 degrees should not hurt target alkaloids, because in traditional ayahuasca preps, the plant matter is boiled/simmered which is 212 degrees and the magic isn't destroyed. 

Secondly mycelium is known to transport chemicals through the hyphae network, most notably toxins from a contaminate mold.  So this raises the question, and perhaps the whole purpose of this experiment, will the mushies absorb the DMT? 

possible solution: after harvest, heat dry your mushies at the temp that kills it's native alkaloids, 106 i think, which would be far lower than that necessary to kill DMT.  Experiment with these to see if the DMT actually passed into the mycelium.. 

Problem: DMT isn't normally orally active, would a bioassay actually be able to prove it worked?  It becomes active in partnership with an MAOI, which will change parameters of the experiment. 


So those are my thoughts on you experiment.

:rasta:,

mycomancer


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OfflineHerbus
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: Mycomancer]
    #3648469 - 01/19/05 03:42 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

That's where our friend Syrian Rue comes in to the picture.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: Herbus]
    #3648528 - 01/19/05 03:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There are MANY posts dealing with substrate supplementation...Use the search engine.

Adding DMT to the substrate will not just be absorbed.If i understood correctly what has been so far said in this forumit could posibly increase psilocin yields.

By the way,be sure to add an adequate quantity in the substrate so if there trully is a diference it could show...A good idea woudl be to use juice from the grass using a juice extractor (one used by people who like things like wheat grass juice).

Since the method of assay is propably a bioassay (i will be completely gestunkenflunkt if you have a Gas gromatographer and a lab to carry out a quantitative analysis) keep in mind that expectation can act as a placebo.


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Offlinekam
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: Herbus]
    #3649427 - 01/19/05 06:48 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Herbus said:
Using the extraction method posted  HERE. Steam sterilize the phalaris grass (keep in mind if submerged in water there's a chance the alkaloids could be pulled out of the material if tryptamine is water soluble -I don't know-) and then perform the above extraction, of course this requires a bio-assay of the finished product... but for the sake of science!




Most of the tryptamine alkaloids in the phalaris (DMT, mostly 5-MeO-DMT, maybe others) will be present as water soluble salts (that's why ayahuasca and other brews work), but some will be in their freebase form and not go into the aqueous solution. However, I don't see the point of sterilizing the phalaris before doing the acid/base extraction posted on Erowid. Those chemicals are definitely strong enough to seriously derange any contaminants... not that I would know from experience :wink:.... However, not many people have been successful in getting acid/base extractions to work with phalaris, and that's why the people at DMTWorld would recommend Mimosa hostilis root bark.

An acid/base extraction is quite a lot of work on its own. And, seriously, would you risk losing some rare, tokable freebase in an experiment that might or might not make your mushies super-potent? I would recommend just buying a few grams of tryptamine (Google). Leave the package unopened, and add it all to the casing or the substrate in a sterile environment. Any tryptamine from a chem supply will be sterile enough.

Oh, and I wouldn't tell everybody your county if I were you.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: Herbus]
    #3653393 - 01/20/05 02:05 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Herbus said:
Ok, as most of you probably know, supplementing your mushrooms with Tryptamine produces some insanely potent mushrooms, specifically in Psilocin content. Now, for most of us the difficult part will be locating and administering the Tryptamine in an effective way. This is a hypothetical discussion on the possibility of feeding our mushrooms with Phalaris Grass.




The only thing that I've seen that would let me "know", rather than assume, something like this was in TIKHAL. Shulgin stated that it seemed that psilocybe mycelia would add a 4-ho structure onto any compound that it encountered, no matter what the compound was. This is an enzymatic action so I'm sure that it's fairly effective in carrying out this procedure on most, if not all, of the available compounds. If this holds true, DMT would be 4-hydroxylated to 4-ho-dmt, or psilocybin. I haven't seen anything definative about the 4-ho action on tryptamine equalling psilocybin/psilocin.
Quote:


Quote:


The Idea
One would take the phalaris grass and cut it into managable pieces and evenly distribute into a casing layer of whatever you case with, notably straw... which is kinda grassy like phalaris! The problem here is sterility, can Phalaris grass be sterilized at 170 degrees fahrenheit without killing the alkaloids? Only one way to find out.




I'm not sure that I'd want the grass in a casing layer. I'd say that it would be better to add it to some sort of bulk substrate. However for the pasteurization required for that, you would be heating the phalaris in a large volume of acidic water, thus causing massive loss of product. Probably a spawn bag filled with compost, straw and phalaris (or mimosa bark) would be the best.
Quote:


One would prepare a solvent (probably alcohol based) and soak the grass in it long enough to pull the alkaloids out. Then, one would simply soak straw or other suitable substrate in the alcohol/tryptamine mixture until the alcohol evaporates. Once dried, you use the straw as you normally would. Again, the question of sterility comes up, would it kill the alkaloids?




Thats an interesting method, actually. Adding the DMT after pasteurization. How about this... do an a/b extraction on MHRB (about 2 lbs of it, probably) to obtain a nice sampling of DMT. This product would not be able to be considered literally "sterile", but I don't see very many lifeforms surviving the pH fluctuation and naptha bath required here. If you mixed your compost and straw, pasteurized that, and THEN added the DMT to the mixture, still in crystal form, that would work. Getting a homogenous substance would be tricky, but MHRB is pretty cheap. Thats how I'd try it. Their wouldn't be any molecular bond between the DMT and the straw, so when it was pasteurized (in acidic water), the DMT would release and be lost.
Quote:


bio-assay of the finished product... but for the sake of science! If the product works like DMT, it's probably DMT meaning that sterilization does not alter tryptamine content.




I've tried soaking phalaris in a few organic solvents to extract the DMT and I never got a product that was pure enough to get me off. IF you'd like some information about DMT extractions their are a number of TEKS relating to it, or you could PM me and I'll help ya as much as I can. I think that you have a good idea. It's been suggested about 50,000 times that I know of but noone has really tried it. Get a kilo of MHRB and use all the DMT you get. If it REALLY turns all of that into psilocybin and all of it really makes it into the mushrooms, a bio-assay will be definative. You'd eat 1.5 grams and trip level 5 all night long.
Quote:


Obviously the conclusion is this... unless you live in Mendocino county or plan on selling mushrooms in Mendocino County (in California) please do experiment with this and post results, 'a friend of mine' intends to do the same thing!



Yea, keep us posted. PM me if you have any questions or anything, or if ya just wanna bounce more ideas off of me.


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Offlinecanid
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: SoopaX]
    #3656938 - 01/21/05 02:43 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


The only thing that I've seen that would let me "know", rather than assume, something like this was in TIKHAL. Shulgin stated that it seemed that psilocybe mycelia would add a 4-ho structure onto any compound that it encountered, no matter what the compound was. This is an enzymatic action so I'm sure that it's fairly effective in carrying out this procedure on most, if not all, of the available compounds. If this holds true, DMT would be 4-hydroxylated to 4-ho-dmt, or psilocybin. I haven't seen anything definative about the 4-ho action on tryptamine equalling psilocybin/psilocin.





* Gartz [1989] determinede that psilocin levels of [Psilocybe cubensis] flushes where naturaly low (.1%) from a sterilized mixture of cow dung and rice (2:1), but could be raised up to 3.3% with the addition of only 25 milligrams of tryptamine into 10 grams of substrate. furthermore, his study showed that at least 22% of psilocybin was derived from the introduced radioactively tagged tryptamine.

1.) Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World, Stemets [1996].


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: canid]
    #3657924 - 01/21/05 12:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Ah, very interesting. Tryptamine HCL, or would it work?


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Offlinekam
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: SoopaX]
    #3659056 - 01/21/05 05:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Tryptamine HCL should work... there are quite a few sites that will sell it to anyone out there.


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: kam]
    #3660742 - 01/21/05 10:22 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

kam said:
Tryptamine HCL should work... there are quite a few sites that will sell it to anyone out there.




Hmmmm... I searched for awhile and couldn't find any source for tryptamine, which is strange.

...nevermind. May have found something.


Edited by Land_Crab (01/21/05 10:26 PM)


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3661442 - 01/22/05 01:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I've found a few chemical houses. I'm just not sure what reason I'd need to be ordering 400 grams of tryptamine HCl. Especially if l-tryptophan works just as well. Or even a DMT extraction from organic sources.


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Offlinekam
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: SoopaX]
    #3663080 - 01/22/05 04:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

A DMT plant extraction might work as well. However, it can be a hard process, and I would never throw DMT into a procedure where I might lose it... and I would trade a lot of super-potent cubensis for some DMT any day.

Most of the old research companies in the US got shut down a few months ago, after some deaths caught the DEA's attention. However, the DEA did not shut down any of the ones overseas. I know of one Chinese company, but it does not carry tryptamine. Also, overseas chemical supplies, especially in some of the shadier countries, like India and China, ship indiscriminately. An order for tryptamine would not attract too much attention, especially since it has no effects of its own, and DMT synthesis is not the first priority the drug agencies have today (meth and MDMA syntheses are probably much more under scrutiny).

As for l-tryptophan, I don't know if it would work. But tryptophan can be used to synthesize tryptamine relatively easy (with basic chem skills), and Rhodium has a few procedures for this.

Good luck.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: kam]
    #3664250 - 01/22/05 09:51 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

DMT extractions are so simple and the cost of the plant sources so minimal that I wouldn't be concerned with 'losing' it. No need to find research chems, it seems that it's almost a given (according to Shulgin) that DMT would 4-ho into 4-ho-dmt. Try that, see if it works. Then try tryptamine and tryptophan. Of course we've had seventy thousand posts like this and noone has yet to tryit.


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OfflineHerbus
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: SoopaX]
    #3677715 - 01/25/05 02:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

When I set up my bulk substrate using straw I will experiment with Phalaris and tryptamine in a seperatae container, will post again probably in a month on this issue.


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OfflineHerbus
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: Herbus]
    #3677717 - 01/25/05 02:36 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Let me correct myself, when my friend decides to do this, I will post again. Haha


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Invisibleshroomgirl
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: canid]
    #3677978 - 01/25/05 03:46 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

so if what you're saying is true...then by simply adding more tryptamine product to your substrate...you can increase the amount of psilocybin in your flushes?

for example adding 100 mg of tryptamine to 10 g of substrate...would this in theory increase my yield of psilocybin per flush?

your advice would help me tremendously...i'm getting ready to start a pretty big experiment, and i could use all the help i can get.  :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:


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Invisibleshroomgirl
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: SoopaX]
    #3678010 - 01/25/05 03:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

i was wondering where might be a good place to order some trytamine based products?

my experiment i'm getting started requires a tryptamine based product, and at the moment i'm at a loss as of where to get any!! your information would help me out a lot...thanx!!!
:mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Supplementation with Phalaris Grass [Re: shroomgirl]
    #3683330 - 01/26/05 03:49 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If you want to try tryptamines that are "known" to work, order some mimosa hostilis root bark from some of the shroomeries vendors. Phalaris grass will work as well. l-tryptophan is available from health food stores online.


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