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Anonymous

No-mind
    #3643238 - 01/18/05 02:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote from another thread:

The mental act of clearing out the mind is the rejection of thoughts and is an extremely unhelpful and non-beneficial state to find oneself in! Agitation soon ensues in the mind of one who is averse to his/her own thoughts! Sort of like a rejection of mind. This is an extremely nihilistic point of view, please do not fall into this trap!

These comments were made in response to no-mind meditation, where one takes a few minutes and simply doesn't think of anything. I don't agree that when one is in the state of no-mind, they are averse to their own thoughts. One is simply taking a break from their thoughts so that, for a few minutes, they're not drowning in them.

Mentally, I'm very over-active. I'm one of those people who lies in bed at night trying to fall asleep but I can't because my thoughts keep me awake. Eventually my body fatigue overtakes my mind's ability to think and I can then sleep. It's not unusual for me to lay there for one to two hours before finally drifting off to sleep. For those people who find themselves mentally overactive, such that your thoughts cause insomnia, the no-mind state is a good method to use in this case.

I also think our minds need the no-mind state occasionally to "refresh." It's like a short nap. I find that when I "zone out" for a minute, and then snap back into the moment, my mental clarity is much clearer and cohesive.

The no-mind state is not one of mental atrophy or laziness. It's our base state. It's a state of pure awareness, taking in all things but not actively processing anything. There is no need to fear this state or avoid it if you feel the need to experience for a few moments.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: No-mind [Re: ]
    #3643288 - 01/18/05 02:41 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I only included what i said in response to you becuase it is easy using your technique for one to fall into the trap of rejection of thoughts and nihlistic point of views.

But a blank state of non-thought is catagorized within the buddhist teachings a Stupidity mediatation and leads to causes placed for birth in the animal realm. This kind of detachment, (as i have stated in other posts) is a hazy, sleepy, dull, state of disconnecting and not thinking of anything in particular. Disconnecting from all of your senses and letting lose in a hippy'esque state of cool. This kind of state people regulaly fall into whilst sunbathing.

This state is absolutley devoid of awareness or presence and is a major obstacle to authentic meditation practice. People usually like and get attached to this state becasue it feels like mentally taking a break and one can just 'chill out' and not do anything with their minds.

This warm and fuzzy state although it feels like taking a break
in actaulity is just zoning out. I have described methods for authentic detachment on this forum before and will find it and post it here ASAP!


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Anonymous

Re: No-mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #3643320 - 01/18/05 02:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

a blank state of non-thought is catagorized within the buddhist teachings a Stupidity mediatation

LOL!

This state is absolutley devoid of awareness

Lack of awareness implies lack of consciousness and this is impossible.

People usually like and get attached to this state becasue it feels like mentally taking a break and one can just 'chill out' and not do anything with their minds. This warm and fuzzy state although it feels like taking a break
in actaulity is just zoning out.


I wouldn't call it 'warm and fuzzy' but I agree otherwise!


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: No-mind [Re: ]
    #3643333 - 01/18/05 02:50 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

THE SUTRA


Not "keeping the mind still," but mindlessness.

Though you may not fully know whether the teachers of the various localities are wrong or right, if your own basis is solid and genuine, the poisons of wrong doctrines will not be able to harm you, "keeping the mind still" and "forgetting concerns" included. If you always "forget concerns" and "keep the mind still," without smashing the mind of birth and death, then the delusive influences of form, sensation, perception, volition, and consciousness will get their way, and you'll inevitably be dividing emptiness into two.

Let go and make yourself vast and expansive. When old habits suddenly arise, don't use mind to repress them. At just such a time, it's like a snowflake on a red-hot stove. For those with a discerning eye and a familiar hand, one leap and they leap clear.

Only then do they know lazy Jung's saying: right when using mind, there's no mental activity. Crooked talk defiled with names and forms, straight talk without complications. Without mind but functioning, always functioning but non-existent -- the mindlessness I speak of now is not separate from having mind. These aren't words to deceive people.

Zen Master Ta Hui.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: No-mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #3643337 - 01/18/05 02:51 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

wrong!

no mind is a realization
a direct face to face meeting with what mind is

it does not fit in words well as it comes from an absorptive state but the mind is seen as both a miraculous interface and as devoid of form.

meantime there is little traffic in thoughts on the way to the confrontation of self with self, and that is achieved by not reacting to thoughts, by not opposing the flow.


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Re: No-mind [Re: ]
    #3643343 - 01/18/05 02:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Lack of awareness implies the lack of the presence of being concious, this doesnt mean that conciousnness is not present, but means that we are unaware of its presence!


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Re: No-mind [Re: ]
    #3643378 - 01/18/05 03:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"The state of no-mind or mindlessness is just the opposite of stilling the mind -- it is getting beyond the mind. It is creating such a distance between yourself and the mind that the mind becomes the farthest star, millions of light years away, and you are just a watcher. When the mind is stilled you are the controller. When the mind is not, you are the watcher. These are the distinguishing marks.

When you are controlling something you are in tension; you cannot be without tension, because that which is controlled is continuously trying to revolt against you, that which is enslaved wants freedom. Your mind sooner or later will explode with vengeance."


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Re: No-mind [Re: dorkus]
    #3643399 - 01/18/05 03:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

yes
presence
and no pretense


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Re: No-mind [Re: dorkus]
    #3643442 - 01/18/05 03:17 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

When using a technique such as concentration, if one is not careful and is too harsh with the mind and without compassion brings the mind strongl back to the object. This is like being harsh and ruthless towards your child and sitting it down on a chair and saying "You will not move from this chair, if you do i will pick you up, shake you and return you to your seat!", the child doesnt understand why and very soon will get upset amd either burst into tears or get extremely frustrated and angry and give up.

When you are training your mind if you are gentle, kind, and patient with your meditation then there is no control needed, after a while it naturally comes back to the meditation object when you notice distraction.

The state of mindlessness is like saying "fuckit! Do whatever you like, im done with you" and kicking the child out of the house!

You may feel relief becuase there is no longer any child around to frustrate you, but you have essentially cut your nose off to spite your face, letting your mind run wild without control! how any progress be made under such circumstances?


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Re: No-mind [Re: dorkus]
    #3643476 - 01/18/05 03:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The realization of no-mind is valid, but it was not what Max Headroom was describing, i was posting in reply to his experience.

In buddhism the state he was describing is called 'stupidity meditation' as i have been taught this by my teacher.

this is my previous post on non-attachment

"There are no limits placed on what we can experience in this world.

Whether we are attached to these experiences or not is etirley our choice. We can have one wife or a hundred wives, it does not matter, your missing the essence of non-attachment. Desire can even be beneficial if burned as the fuel for non-attachment.

To be in a state of non-attachment doesnt mean that you have to go to a quiet place devoid of distraction and zone-out as some hippy-types will tell you.

It means that what ever appears, you just remain unattached, and observe the rise and fall of thoughts, feelings, and emotions without entering into judgement. Its quite simple, detachment doesnt mean devoid of feeling, or remaining emotionless like a zombie, fixed in some isolated state. One can be completely surround by the limitless manifestations of their minds and remain completely in a state of detached equinimity!

When Buddha Siddhartha was sitting under the bodhi tree, hoards of demons attacked him and shot poison arrows at his body, before reaching his body , he transformed them into flowers and they fell to the ground by his feet, leaving him completely unaffected.

Whether this is an actual historical event or not is irrelevant. It has some meaning. Hoards of demons could be taken to mean the endless distractions of the senses, the transformation of poison arrows into flowers could be taken to mean that whilst remaining in the state of non-attachment (bearing in mind what i said previously about that state) he realized the dream-like, illusory nature of reality and as such could not be harmed or affected in any way.

Sort of like when your having a nightmare and your realize that its just a dream, at that moment you can transform and have complete mastery over the dream.

Dont you feel like this is a dream? Doesnt this all feel very fluid and unreal?"

There is a presence of mind in the practice of meditation, a mindfullness of thoughts, feelings ,emotions and all external sense phenomena. In realizing the illsuion of all phenomena, One turns with presence, to obseve the observer, when nothing is found, just resting in this presence is the realization of no-mind.


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Re: No-mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #3643478 - 01/18/05 03:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In my view both my contributions in this thread support yours.

I think mindlessness is to flow, just like you are recommending.

To keep ones mind still is the purposive clearing of the mind and struggle to keep it empty. This is what you call a sort of rejection of the mind, and leads to pressure and tension.


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Re: No-mind [Re: dorkus]
    #3643489 - 01/18/05 03:31 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, you are correct. But for me the word mindlessness implies lack of presence! This maybe just my interpretation and limitation but the word flowing, strikes me as meaning the following of thoughts, which is contradictoiry to meditation.


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Re: No-mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #3643494 - 01/18/05 03:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

so you are saying mindlessness is non-attention, (or non-concentration, though concentration itself is a less prefferred word in your other thread).

I like that useage - i.e. mindfullness as opposed to mindlessness
it makes a good simple word axis of simple ideas.

but
is no-mind the same as mindlessness
or
is it closer to
anatta or no-self which is one of the usual realizations of insight meditation.
or maybe an after transcendence
an experience after no-self


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Re: No-mind [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3643506 - 01/18/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes this is my view, mindlessnes infers a lack of presence, so i dont like to use this word to describe the realization of no-mind.

It may be used by others to mean the same thing, but in the english language if you call someone a 'mindless oaf' this infers lack of presence!


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Re: No-mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #3643513 - 01/18/05 03:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

would you say that mindfullness is attention?


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Re: No-mind [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3643520 - 01/18/05 03:43 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes i suppose it could be interpreted that way. But mindfulless to me means attention with the quality of awareness.


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Re: No-mind [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3643521 - 01/18/05 03:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In my limited understanding mindfulness is the same practice as mindlessness. I think it is different cultures using different words. The sutra does not promote non-attention, does it? I thought it meant to take it all in, fully attentive yet without preconceived discrimination. But of course I am probably wrong :smile:

I agree mindfulness seems to be a better word.

Do you guys recommend keeping the mind still, as in no-mind? Or does no-mind hold different meanings in different contexts?

Bear in mind, I know little of these things...


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Re: No-mind [Re: dorkus]
    #3643531 - 01/18/05 03:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Nope your quite right, but not exactly 'taking in' as such, more like letting come and letting go, not being attached to phenomena!

Leaving the sense complately open with presence and awareness. Relaxed with Attention. Leaving everything as it is. Not trying to judge or modify anything. Just relaxing with presence.

Your knowlege is correct!


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Re: No-mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #3643544 - 01/18/05 03:51 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think I can picture what you mean. I agree flowing was a terrible word. Could I see my self as a firm stone in the middle of the river, watching the water flow by me, but the water not being able to bring me down the river with the flow. Because I am heavy and firmly rooted or placed at the bottom of the river?


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Re: No-mind [Re: dorkus]
    #3643596 - 01/18/05 04:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

You could, but it would only be a fantasy  :blush:

Great obstacles and diffculties can and do arise in meditation, but there is never a 'bad meditation'.

Its all part of the practice of undoing. Weve been weaving this ball of string for eterinity, meditation is the unraveling of this infinite ball of string wvee spun.

Sure we will have many experiences on the path, but that whcih notices these experiences never changes, this pure awareness is always their like the sky, no matter how clouded, its always infintely vast and blue underneath those clouds!

But all this wordplay in the end is irrelevant, to practice without fanciful ideas, or illusions of a perfect meditation is the key. beleive me none of these ideas are gonna happen, your gonna come up against many brick walls in practice, the secret is just to always be a beginner and continue with the method and not to get distarcted and conditioned by expereience.

even if you do get distracted and condtioned, dont be discouraged because this too is just part of the process, just begin again. Remember short sessions frequently, leave it while its fresh!

Shynro Suzuki always said " The secret is to always be a begginner, forever a begginer, over and over just practice beginning again and again. This is the key."


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