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InvisibleRavus
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Humanity at its Best
    #3641521 - 01/18/05 12:34 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

A man said to him: Talk to my brothers so that they will divide my father's property with me. Jesus replied: Man, who made me a divider? He turned to his disciples and asked them: Really, am I a divider?


For some reason this seemingly insignificant quote always reveals more about Jesus' personality than mostly all other ones.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMrBump
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: Ravus]
    #3641535 - 01/18/05 12:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

what chapter and verse is that from?


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If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: MrBump]
    #3641554 - 01/18/05 12:41 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Saying 72 from the Gospel of Thomas.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: Ravus]
    #3641674 - 01/18/05 01:12 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The Gospels of Thomas have been popping up everywhere I read lately it seems. So the other night, I decided to check out the hub bub and read some of it. I came across this and stopped to ponder it.


55 Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

I have my own theory on why this was said to be said by him and it's pretty whacked. I was curious what one without such a whacked theory makes of this to find it understandable. I'm open to hearing anyones interpretation and I care not to refute or question it. I am just curious what someone makes of that. Thanks in advance for sharing if you have an interpretation of it.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: Ravus]
    #3641709 - 01/18/05 01:25 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Saying 72 from the Gospel of Thomas.




It's also found in the 'canonized' bible in Luke 12:14. There's some interesting verses in the 'gospels' that show that Jesus' had a personality (in other words he was a 'normal' person in many respects). In my minds eye I can picture the person Jesus was, according to the gospel accounts, and he seems like a pretty 'down to earth' sort of guy.


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OfflineMrBump
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: Ravus]
    #3641729 - 01/18/05 01:34 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

what gospels were left out? werent there about ten of them?


--------------------
If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3641795 - 01/18/05 02:02 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
The Gospels of Thomas have been popping up everywhere I read lately it seems. So the other night, I decided to check out the hub bub and read some of it. I came across this and stopped to ponder it.


55 Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

I have my own theory on why this was said to be said by him and it's pretty whacked. I was curious what one without such a whacked theory makes of this to find it understandable. I'm open to hearing anyones interpretation and I care not to refute or question it. I am just curious what someone makes of that. Thanks in advance for sharing if you have an interpretation of it.




What I get from it is that is has two aspects. The first is that the person must sever family bonds to follow Jesus, if you notice the disciples left their families and it was never mentioned what happened to them. The second is in a secular sense, that you must leave and in a sense hate the materialistic emotional people all around you or you will not enter the Kingdom of God, because they will always get you caught up in worldly matters.

Just one interpretation


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3641829 - 01/18/05 02:20 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:

55 Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."




Matthew 12:46-50

[46]While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
[47] Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
[48] But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
[49] And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
[50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 22:35-39

[35]Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

From what I can tell, Jesus is not commanding people to hate their families, but he is telling them to place their relationship to God on a higher priority level than their familial relationships.


Edited by soulmotion (01/18/05 02:26 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: soulmotion]
    #3641842 - 01/18/05 02:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

soulmotion said:
From what I can tell, Jesus is not commanding people to hate their families, but he is telling them to place their relationship to God on a higher priority than their familial relationships.




--------------------
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Offlineskystone
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: Ravus]
    #3642448 - 01/18/05 09:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

A lot of people stick to their family (which is a natural instinct rather than reason) and some are ready to kill to protect it.

So it's family that matters, and everybody else can screw themselfs...

In fact you should love all people because they are all your family,
this includes friendships, family and friendships are great, but they
should never stand in the way of your spiritual love for all life.

Sticking with the family is a lot like nationalism, only on a smaller scale and more natural.

Your father does not deserve more than a stranger, and your brother
is allso as deserving of respect and love as someone you might consider your enemy.


Well, at least these are my thoughts, and I think Jesus ment this
when he said it


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: skystone]
    #3643259 - 01/18/05 02:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think it is about breaking out of traditions. Turn your back on the culture, the indoctrinated believes and "programs" handed from parents to children. If all followed in their ancestors footsteps, evolution would not occur. Status Quo.

Maybe these quotes can elaborate:

"You have to brush everything aside to find out. Your problem is not how to get something from somebody, but how to reject everything that is offered by anybody.

All the accumulated knowledge, experience, and suffering of mankind is inside you. You must build a huge bonfire within you. Then you will become an individual. There is no other way."

I am sure Yeshua held both Mary and Joseph in the highest esteem. He loved all.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: dorkus]
    #3643609 - 01/18/05 04:06 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

He is speaking of brothers, they can not be a symbol for perental programing, they are in step with you.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: skystone]
    #3643632 - 01/18/05 04:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What about societal (sp?) programming? Expectations? Obligations? Culture at large.

If the message of the saying was "love everybody as high as you love your father, mother, brothers and sisters (in blood)", the saying itself would have been a poor way of presenting these ideas: "Hate your mother and father... etc"

This can't be the hidden meaning imho.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: dorkus]
    #3643655 - 01/18/05 04:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I drew my conclusion out of the original quote AND the quotes someone else posted here.


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: soulmotion]
    #3643689 - 01/18/05 04:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:

55 Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

soulmotion said:
"From what I can tell, Jesus is not commanding people to hate their families, but he is telling them to place their relationship to God on a higher priority level than their familial relationships. "





I find it highly unreasonable that this is what he meant. Why convey such a message using those words? It doesn't make sense  :crazy:

Detachment. Stand your own ground. Remember the context he was "struggling" in. Judaism had grown stale and was ruled by scholars making up bullshit rules. The tradition kept man from the heaven within. Free your mind (from cultural conditions).


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: dorkus]
    #3643703 - 01/18/05 04:29 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Like I said I was refering to that and this:

"46]While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
[47] Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
[48] But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
[49] And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
[50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. "


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: skystone]
    #3643814 - 01/18/05 04:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

25) Jesus said, "Love your brother like your soul, guard him like the pupil of your eye."

(39) Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."

Thomas 101)  <Jesus said,> "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to Me. And whoever does [not] love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a [disciple] to Me.

Maybe you're right. I remember reading a letter written by Yeshua to his mother when he was in India or Tibet or something. It was found in an old monastery in Tibet, I think. Can't remember where I saw it, and it might be fake. Will look a little deeper into this.

Was hoping Markos could shed some light on the issue though :wink:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: Ravus]
    #3643893 - 01/18/05 05:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
A man said to him: Talk to my brothers so that they will divide my father's property with me. Jesus replied: Man, who made me a divider? He turned to his disciples and asked them: Really, am I a divider?...




....Luke 12:13-14
?Someone in the crowd said to him,

?Teacher, tell my brother

to divide the family property with me.? 

He said to the man,

?Who set me over you to judge or arbitrate??


Exodus 2:11-14  ?One day after Moses was grown up, he went out to his own kinsmen and observed their labours.  When he saw an Egyptian strike one of

his fellow-Hebrews, he looked this way and that,

and seeing no one about, he struck the Egyptian

down and hid his body in the sand. Next day when

he went out, he came across two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one who was in the wrong, ?Why are you striking your fellow-countryman?? The man replied,

?Who set you up as an official and judge over us?? ?



















One of the recurring themes in Thomas is that of ?making the two into One?, combining, not dividing.



Luke?s version also brings up the issue of judging or arbitrating, and echoes Exodus.





All judgment must come from within. As Jesus says:



"Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57)

(from a Web Page, i did not write this, i copy pasted and deleted only :smile: )


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3644011 - 01/18/05 05:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Thomas 99 may also clear some of what he meant up, where it says:

His disciples told him: Your brothers and your mother are standing outside. He responded: These here who do the will of my Father are my brothers and my mother. These are the ones who will enter the Kingdom of the Father.

It shows that he values those that are to enter the Kingdom of God over his own mother and family, and that one cannot enter the Kingdom of God unless one stops worshipping their mother and family so highly, because the family has not even entered the Kingdom of God like Jesus has. All throughout the Gospel of Thomas Jesus seems to have place emphasis on the Kingdom of God above all else, even his own parent, and the beauty of the Kingdom of God is so stark a contrast to even your own parents that you must "hate your own parents" in contrast to the Kingdom of God, he says.

Of course, it's possible only Jesus knows what he meant


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Humanity at its Best [Re: Ravus]
    #3644223 - 01/18/05 06:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Thomas 99 may also clear some of what he meant up, where it says:

His disciples told him: Your brothers and your mother are standing outside. He responded: These here who do the will of my Father are my brothers and my mother. These are the ones who will enter the Kingdom of the Father.





Mark 3:31-35

?Then his mother and his brothers arrived; they stayed outside and sent in a message asking him to come out to them. A crowd was sitting round him when the word was brought that his mother and
brothers were outside asking for him. ?Who are my mother and my brothers?? he replied. And looking round at those who were sitting in the circle about him he said, ?Here are my Mother and my Brothers.
Whoever does the will of God is my Brother and Sister and Mother.? ?

Matthew 12:47-50

?Someone said, ?Your mother and your brothers are
standing outside; they want to speak to you.?

Jesus turned to the man who brought the message and said, ?Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?? and pointing to his disciples, he said, ?Here are my
Mother and my Brothers. Whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my Brother and Sister and Mother.? ?









Note that the biological "brothers" and "mother" are standing outside, but it is "those here", who do God's will, who are spiritual "Brothers" and "Mother".



(55) Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me"

(101) Jesus said, "whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his Father and his Mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. For my earthly mother gave me death, but my true Mother gave me life."

Those within the Kingdom are your true family; don't bother with those who loiter around outside the door, for like the pharisees and scribes in Saying (39), "They themselves have not entered, nor have they
allowed to enter those who wish to."

If "no prophet is accepted in his own village; no physician heals those who know him" (31), then it should be no surprise that those who think they

know us best, our family members, will reject our prophecies and healings. You are not spiritually related to those who have not yet evolved out of the animal kingdom and into the Kingdom of the Father.

(Again from a Web Page, i did not write this, i copy pasted only ) http://www.misericordia.edu/users/davies/THOMAS/GospelofGnosis.htm


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Edited by Gomp (01/18/05 06:17 PM)


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