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usefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
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WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh?
#3641085 - 01/17/05 08:59 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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J4S0N
human
Registered: 07/29/04
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: usefulidiot]
#3641213 - 01/17/05 09:32 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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The offical story is such a lie when you actually look at the evidence. There is little reason not to believe those towers weren't lined with explosives before sept 11. The evidence is in WTC tower 7. THis tower wasn't even hit by a plane, yet it collapsed. There is video of them 'pulling' it. Larry silverstien himself said on public television that they decided to pull it. If this tower was already lined with explosives, then the question is why? And why did larry silverstien have control of the explosives? And then we can wonder if the other two towers were also lined. They sure did fall nice didn't they.. really fast too. Actually they fell about as fast as physically possible.
Plus has anyone else seen the video clip of the FEMA employee on sept 11 saying that FEMA was deployed in New York on Sept *10*.. Slip up on his part i guess.. so then why were they delpoyed if no one knew what was coming?
Not bad for afgan terrorist cavemen huh..
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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faslimy
Dead Man
Registered: 04/04/04
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3641635 - 01/17/05 11:00 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think it's sad that people need evidence such as this but whatever..
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: faslimy]
#3641801 - 01/18/05 12:05 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Are you insinuating that it was obvious the US government played a role in the fall of the WTC Towers? Because that's cool, it's your opinion man
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Ravus]
#3642367 - 01/18/05 06:35 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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> The offical story is such a lie when you actually look at the evidence.
There is a large difference between looking at the evidence and understanding the evidence. Obviously, not many people understand what they are looking at.
> There is little reason not to believe those towers weren't lined with explosives before sept 11.
There is no reason to believe tha the towers were lined with explosives before sept 11.
1) Shaped charges have to be strapped onto both sides of each I-beam to cut the beam.
2) Pusher charges have to be put under the building to lift the thing to start the collapase.
3) The structure of the building has to be weakened so that it can fall with the help of the explosives.
4) Nobody reported any construction work on the building in the months before the attack. It would have taken several months to a year to prepare these THREE buildings for demolotion.
5) There was no explosive residue reported on the rubble
6) There were no signs of explosives being detonated before the buildings collapsed
7) The buildings collapsed from the top down, not the bottom up as you would see in a demolition
8) The top of the building can be seen sliding off to the side as the collapse starts. This is obviously related to the plane impact point.
9) There would have to be wires running everywhere to properly time the charges for detonation. Batteries and remote receivers would be impractical with the time required between placement and activation... not to mention the danger or a premature detonation.
10) The Bush admin isn't smart enough to make something like this happen.
> They sure did fall nice didn't they.. really fast too. Actually they fell about as fast as physically possible.
Take a high school physics class before posting such drivel, please. All objects on earth, ignoring air resistance, fall at the exact same speed of 9.8 m/s/s. A marble or a bowling ball or a building, it doesn't matter; they all fall at the same rate!
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3642403 - 01/18/05 07:12 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Of course it was the afgan boogiemen....
You do know that the CIA had setup NORAD training sessiones that day right? Norad was unnder the impression that there was a training exercise going on that day, there were quite a few 'highjacked' planes, the targets included the world trade centre and the pentagon. The people guarding the skies had no idea the planes were actually high-jacked. it was in teh USA today, near the back of course.
So how did osama get the CIA to do this so that norad would ignore the high jacked planes? Im curious
Physics class isn't going to change that fact that FEMA was ther on Sept 10 ready and waiting, and that Larry Silverstein himself (owner of the towers) admitted on PBS that they decided to PULL tower 7. So who are you believing? None of it makes sense..
and and as for the residue on the fallen structure, the entire building was shipped off to China before any non-government official could look at it. The FBI wouldn't allow it.
If you believe the government was not in on it perhaps you can answer some questions for me. I have a lot of them, and the offical story just doesn't cut it for me (and im not alone).
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3642682 - 01/18/05 09:32 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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4) Nobody reported any construction work on the building in the months before the attack. It would have taken several months to a year to prepare these THREE buildings for demolotion.
Didn't FEMA or some government agency admit the fall of one of the buildings (WT7?) was planned? They demolished it on purpose after the planes hit "to reduce further damage" or something like that?
If that is true then they most certainly were able to install all the explosives required without public knowledge.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: newuser1492]
#3642707 - 01/18/05 09:41 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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> If that is true then they most certainly were able to install all the explosives required without public knowledge.
There are many ways to tear down a building without using explosives.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3642715 - 01/18/05 09:44 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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you all need tin foil hats.
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Innvertigo]
#3642754 - 01/18/05 09:59 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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> you all need tin foil hats
Eh? My reception is fine.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Innvertigo]
#3642761 - 01/18/05 10:00 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc7.html
Quote:
Building 7 underwent a total structural collapse at around 5:20 PM.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html
Quote:
Larry Silverstein, the controller of the destroyed WTC complex, stated in a PBS documentary that he and the FDNY decided jointly to demolish WTC 7 late in the afternoon of September 11, 2001.
That means within 7 hours of the attack people were able to organize the demolition of that building while everything else was happening. I'm not saying it didn't happen that way just that it's hard for me to believe.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Innvertigo]
#3642786 - 01/18/05 10:09 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Anyone recall the burning of the Reishstag?
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3642804 - 01/18/05 10:13 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
J4S0N said: Of course it was the afgan boogiemen....
You do know that the CIA had setup NORAD training sessiones that day right? Norad was unnder the impression that there was a training exercise going on that day, there were quite a few 'highjacked' planes, the targets included the world trade centre and the pentagon. The people guarding the skies had no idea the planes were actually high-jacked. it was in teh USA today, near the back of course.
So how did osama get the CIA to do this so that norad would ignore the high jacked planes? Im curious
Physics class isn't going to change that fact that FEMA was ther on Sept 10 ready and waiting, and that Larry Silverstein himself (owner of the towers) admitted on PBS that they decided to PULL tower 7. So who are you believing? None of it makes sense..
and and as for the residue on the fallen structure, the entire building was shipped off to China before any non-government official could look at it. The FBI wouldn't allow it.
If you believe the government was not in on it perhaps you can answer some questions for me. I have a lot of them, and the offical story just doesn't cut it for me (and im not alone).
This is true...It seems a little convenient that on the same day of the highjackings that there were also nation wide mock drills. According to the radar ops, they seen a multitude of 'highjacked' planes on their screen, even after they were aware of the first plane hitting the WTC... ..care to guess who called for the Exercises?... If you guessed Dick Cheney, you would be right.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3642805 - 01/18/05 10:13 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
7) The buildings collapsed from the top down, not the bottom up as you would see in a demolition
Not exactly....
They collapsed from around half way up where the planes went in. The middle section of building gave way; and from there up came down with enough weight to crush the bottom half.
They collapsed from the bottom of the top half, from there up.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3642821 - 01/18/05 10:17 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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well there's a coincidence.....'don't worry guys it's only a drill'
ooops!
the Reichstag fire....
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3642827 - 01/18/05 10:19 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
5) There was no explosive residue reported on the rubble
Actually this can't be proven either way since the metal was immediately sent to China...without EVER having been examined.
Quote:
6) There were no signs of explosives being detonated before the buildings collapsed
Not quite accurate...many fire fighters that were at the scene heard a 'bang' just before the building collapsed and believe that this was controlled demoltiton.
Quote:
10) The Bush admin isn't smart enough to make something like this happen.
I agree that Bush isn't smart enough...but Cheney and Rumsfield are...and I think everyone here would agree that they are the ones that are running the show...not Bush.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3642828 - 01/18/05 10:20 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
the entire building was shipped off to China before any non-government official could look at it. The FBI wouldn't allow it.
Is this true? Why on Earth were the fallen towers shipped to China of all places?
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3642836 - 01/18/05 10:23 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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anyone smell fish?
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3642842 - 01/18/05 10:25 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I haven't been able to smell anything else for a few years now...
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3642850 - 01/18/05 10:29 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Hi Mom!"
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3642858 - 01/18/05 10:32 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Eh? My reception is fine.
You get better reception with the hats, but it stops all the hearsay conspiracy theories.
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3642866 - 01/18/05 10:35 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
They collapsed from around half way up where the planes went in. The middle section of building gave way; and from there up came down with enough weight to crush the bottom half.
You are correct. I was trying to point out that the buildings went down from the top, not the bottom.
Quote:
Not quite accurate...many fire fighters that were at the scene heard a 'bang' just before the building collapsed and believe that this was controlled demoltiton.
Again, this would discredit the explosives theory. A single bang would be a big bomb which does nothing. When pulling down a building with explosives, you hear (and see!) a lot of little explosions that go on for about 10 to 15 seconds followed by a big boom as the pusher goes...
Also, remember that a lot of things can create 'bangs'. I have seen high tension wires break creating a bang that sounds just like a rifle crack. (I assume the wires ends whipped by faster than the speed of sound creating a small sonic boom, just like a rifle bullet.)
Quote:
That means within 7 hours of the attack people were able to organize the demolition of that building while everything else was happening.
It would not surprise me to find out that building 7 was torn down rather than fell on its own. I doubt that explosives were used. It was heavily damaged by the collapse of the twin towers. Like a house of cards, it would have been fairly easy to drop. With all of the other damage in the area, they wouldn't be too worried about creating more damage in the short term to stabalize the site in the long term.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: newuser1492]
#3642867 - 01/18/05 10:35 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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it's fine to have your suspicions but it just doesn't make any sense. Not everything that happens to the US is a conspiracy, hell the government has a hard enough time screening people going on airplanes, what makes you think that they would be sucessful at this?
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Innvertigo]
#3642900 - 01/18/05 10:45 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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True but it seems like the attacks happened on the perfect day.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: newuser1492]
#3642921 - 01/18/05 10:50 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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> True but it seems like the attacks happened on the perfect day.
Or perhaps the conspiracy theory folks are making a perfect day out of when the attacks happened. I haven't seen anything other than hear-say regarding these norad training missions, etc. I am not saying that they didn't happen, but unless somebody can show me a signed order or an interview with several people involved in the training exercices, I tend to discredit the reports as fantasy.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3642934 - 01/18/05 10:55 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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This Should get you started Just click on the "excerpt" link at the bottom of the page.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3642999 - 01/18/05 11:18 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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So what am I supposed to believe now... one set of conspiracy theory folks claim that the US added extra blips to the radar screens so that the air force could not react while another set of conspiracy theory folks claim that the US air force actually shot down one of the planes.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3643028 - 01/18/05 11:26 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I personally have never believed that the U.S. shot down one of the planes...and doubt that many would agree that a plane was shot down. But it would certainly be a justifed action if they did fire on the hijacked planes...
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (01/18/05 11:44 AM)
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: newuser1492]
#3643080 - 01/18/05 11:46 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
True but it seems like the attacks happened on the perfect day.
how was it a perfect day? Couldn't the terrorists have planned this?
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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usefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3643087 - 01/18/05 11:49 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > If that is true then they most certainly were able to install all the explosives required without public knowledge. There are many ways to tear down a building without using explosives.
By whatever means the buildings demolitions may have occured or been controlled - perhaps the mechanisms used was not your average conventional bomb that just goes boom... I think we all know the government has alot of money reserved for black ops and secret projects, and as such it might be safe to consider that they may have some pretty wacky weaponry developed and hidden away under their sleeves ready to put to use if and when it is necessary, for whatever reason. So how does one get around this little bit of evidence without acknowledging that possibility?
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: usefulidiot]
#3643115 - 01/18/05 11:55 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just because it's possible doesn't mean that it's probable. I have everything needed to rape a woman, it doesn't mean I did or would.
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3643145 - 01/18/05 12:02 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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We are not making this up, it was in the USA today. Do i have to do all your research for you? If you dont want to read up on it and keep believing daddy bush is a hero then go ahead.
Why do people believe Osama and his cavemen terrorists could pull it off, but the most technologically advanced and powerful government in the world wouldn't be able to.
Did you know that larry silverstien took out double insurance on the towers two months before the attacks. Then after the attacks he tried to claim it twice because there was two planes. When he was denied in court he went to federal court and was awarded his money for the towers (a few billion).
Did you also know that there was insider trading for the Air line companies. Oh i bet that was the cavement terrorists that did that.
You do know that Osama bin laden was trained and funded by the CIA during the afgan war with russia right.. He is CIA. In the early 90's him and his terror network received BILLIONS from the US government.
Read up on Operation Northwood and Project for a New American century. They basically detail the need for Sept 11 from the governments point of few. PNAC was written by the current cabal in office now. They need a 'new pearl harbor' incident to spark the need for war.
It wasnt bush who did Sept 11. It was the military industrial complex who profited the most (as did everyone involved). Just look at the defence buget now. Tax payers money going directly into the pockets of the weapons dealers. Pure scam.
Then there is the record opium production coming out of afganistan now that the taliban is gone. THe CIA, and the daddy Bush make billions from poppy production.
Also a large amount of firefighters that were in the towers reported hearing bombs going off, floor by floor. I have the video of it. Its lately been reported in the news that the firefighters have been told not to talk about it.
Just follow the money and you'll find who did it. Open your eyes people.
But then again im crazy, it was really cavemen who did it. Yes i know i've heard it before. You don't have to believe me
also has anyone else noticed that osama can't seem to afford a decent video camera? Just because hes shooting in a cave doesn't make the video look like shit. hahaha
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: usefulidiot]
#3643173 - 01/18/05 12:06 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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*misread on my part* -Seuss (long day)
Edited by Seuss (01/18/05 12:13 PM)
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3643176 - 01/18/05 12:07 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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There is also evidence out now that the U.S had planned the war in afganistan long before Sept 11.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4262511,00.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1550366.stm
So if the war in afganistan was because of Sept 11, then why was it setup prior to Sept 11?
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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st0nedphucker
Rogue State
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Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3643177 - 01/18/05 12:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
You do know that Osama bin laden was trained and funded by the CIA during the afgan war with russia right.. He is CIA. In the early 90's him and his terror network received BILLIONS from the US government.
Source. The only reason I ask is that it was the USSR, which collapsed in 1991, that invaded Afghanistan. Not only that the Soviet-Afghan war ended in 1989 and billions sounds sounds a little excessive. That's if you're willing to do my research for me .
-------------------- The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.
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usefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Innvertigo]
#3643178 - 01/18/05 12:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Maybe so, but I mean there would probably be a pretty big difference between the motives you may have to rape somebody and the motives any given government may have for even considering orchestrating such an event (again). Also, being in the high-level positions that they are in, I could see why they would maintain their confidence in that they could actually get away with something like this.
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usefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3643182 - 01/18/05 12:10 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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*misread on my part* -Seuss
Edited by Seuss (01/18/05 12:13 PM)
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J4S0N
human
Registered: 07/29/04
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: st0nedphucker]
#3643214 - 01/18/05 12:21 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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The billions were after the war was finished. As for sources, i'll try to find some.. but honestly who keeps sources of everything they read?
Also I would like to say that some of the stuff i've read maybe bullshit, but at this point if only 10% of it was real its still worth being concerned about.
Think about this, so far the U.S has released NOTHING to show the official story was true. They found a hi-jackers passport in the rubble of the tower. Now how is this possible? A peiece of paper survived that explosion? and happened to be found by the FBI? Now thats crazy people
Also i've also read reports of some of the hi-jackers being seen alive after sept 11. Could be BS, but who knows anymore. The whole event is shrouded with lies.
I always like the follow the money. The U.S.A has the highest defense bugjet in the world. Almost every advanced country warned of the attacks. The gov had to have known, yet they did nothing. There is only 1 person that can setup the stand down of the defense of New York and Washington.
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: usefulidiot]
#3643246 - 01/18/05 12:29 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Maybe so, but I mean there would probably be a pretty big difference between the motives you may have to rape somebody and the motives any given government may have for even considering orchestrating such an event (again).
not really, evil is evil. Many here, ignorant as they may be, think that since we have the ability to do things then we will do just that. Most sources are illegitimate at best and are usually chat forum articles that find their way in front of ignorant eyes, and minds. There is no benefit from killing thousands of innocent people and destroying our money center. If we wanted an excuse to bomb Iraq and Afghanistan it wouldn't be that hard to find a reason.
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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usefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Innvertigo]
#3643327 - 01/18/05 12:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not sure it's entirely about doing what is more 'evil' for whatever reason at all.. it's about doing what is necessary in order to maintain control and continue building upon that control.. The idea of self inflicted terrorism has sacraficial merit to it, and to think that some of these individuals would have a problem with killing a few thousand of their own people in order to further advance such a large scale agenda..? Especially when we can observe them actively killing and calling for the torturing of other said 'evil' people in various countries, not to mention in many cases not even taking care of our own troops, a number of them currently sick and dying from D.U. exposure among other things akin the so-called 'gulf war syndrome'.. What the hell are they trying to say when they tell us to 'support our troops' anyway? They are merly seen as resources to get the job done - the loss of life is but an indifferent side effect in the eyes of the man waving the magic dictator stick.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Loc: Calgary, Alberta
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3644746 - 01/18/05 06:11 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
We are not making this up, it was in the USA today. Do i have to do all your research for you? If you dont want to read up on it and keep believing daddy bush is a hero then go ahead.
...Are you sure that you're replying to the right person??? You're preaching to the pope on this one.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (01/18/05 06:23 PM)
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3644811 - 01/18/05 06:22 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Don't deny your daddy!
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3644816 - 01/18/05 06:22 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
...As for sources, i'll try to find some.. but honestly who keeps sources of everything they read?
People who try to present supposed facts that no one else has ever heard of.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3644830 - 01/18/05 06:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Actually, Every single one of his facts is well documented.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3644846 - 01/18/05 06:26 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok, well for starters im gonna need some kind of information on insider trading in the airline companies just prior to 9/11 indicating some type of knowledge of the events before they unfolded as well as the source inferring that Bush is profiting billions of dollars from the heroin trade.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3644877 - 01/18/05 06:31 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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holy crap dude...You have alot of catching up to do...Do a google search either of those. (I'm not going to do your research for you...you can make your own decisions) Although i don't think he is claiming that Bush himself is profiting from the drug trade...but the CIA certainly would appear to be. Edit*** here ya go... Insider Trading CIA involvment in the Drug trade.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3644905 - 01/18/05 06:35 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, dude. Im not going to google a bunch of web logs from conspiracy theorists and think thats factual evidence. If you have the evidence, I suggest you post it here so we can all see it and decide if it is credible. If you do have evidence of this, then it would be quite a bombshell to the world community...<waits on the edge of his seat>
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3644920 - 01/18/05 06:39 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you live in a cave? The insider trading is a documented fact that has been in every major publication since it happened. As for the CIA drug involvement...How's this for information with no source needed. Before the attack on Afghanistan, the Taliban effectively crippled Opium production in that country. Now that the U.S. has control over the country...Opium production is at an all time high. Opium & Afghanistan
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (01/18/05 06:42 PM)
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3644929 - 01/18/05 06:41 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Catalysis said: No, dude. Im not going to google a bunch of web logs from conspiracy theorists and think thats factual evidence. If you have the evidence, I suggest you post it here so we can all see it and decide if it is credible. If you do have evidence of this, then it would be quite a bombshell to the world community...<waits on the edge of his seat>
yes...heaven forbid you actually do your OWN research...what the hell was I thinking.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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usefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3644936 - 01/18/05 06:42 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Watch and pay attention to the video about a third ways down the screen: http://prisonplanet.com/articles/december2004/141204webbmurdered.htm
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3644953 - 01/18/05 06:46 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Omigod! They're growing poppies in Afghanistan?!?!?! Stop the presses! Dewd, Afghanistan has been growing poppies since before the days of Alexander. That's what they do there. The fact that for a few years under the Taliban opium production purportedly declined is (if true) an aberration -- a blip in the graph. By the way, does it strike anyone else as just slightly weird to see -- on a site dedicated to mind-altering natural substances, let's remember -- the implication that growing poppies is somehow a bad thing? Just wondering. pinky
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3644970 - 01/18/05 06:50 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
pinksharkmark said: By the way -- does it strike anyone else as just slightly weird that to see on a site dedicated to mind-altering natural substances the implication that growing poppies is somehow a bad thing? pinky
Only when they don't share! If Iraq is a fight for oil... and Afghanistan was a fight for Poppies... WHERE'S MY SHARE? Kerry would have shared.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (01/18/05 06:51 PM)
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Loc: Calgary, Alberta
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3644987 - 01/18/05 06:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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nobody is saying that growing poppies is a bad thing...But what I AM saying is a bad thing is that the government is encouraging ( and most likely profiting from) it's production, while sending people to prison for the same drugs that they are encouraging Afghani' to grow.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (01/18/05 06:54 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3645019 - 01/18/05 06:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wait a minute, wait a minute... are you trying to claim that the US government is "encouraging" (how... through subsidies or US government foreign aid grants? Give us some specifics here) poor Afghanis to plant poppies?
pinky
--------------------
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3645056 - 01/18/05 07:03 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well I looked at your very informational reference to google search (lol) and, yes, you have succeeded in convincing me that they are growing poppies for opium in afgahnistan. The only problem is I already knew that. I specifically asked for the credible reference that Bush was making billions from this and you have failed to provide that. You need to learn that you can't just say "I claim xxx and you need to do the research to prove it", it doesnt work that way.
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usefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3645080 - 01/18/05 07:07 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
pinksharkmark said: Wait a minute, wait a minute... are you trying to claim that the US government is "encouraging" (how... through subsidies or US government foreign aid grants? Give us some specifics here) poor Afghanis to plant poppies? pinky
heh..well it doesn't seem like they are making much effort to discourage it either now does it? somehow i got a hunch that the 'poor' Afghanis probably don't particularly need foreign aid to enable them to grow plants..but as far as getting the resources required for packing/safe shipping overseas goes..
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: usefulidiot]
#3645094 - 01/18/05 07:11 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Are you saying that the US is shipping Afghani opium overseas? Lol, what is with these cryptic statements?
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3645181 - 01/18/05 07:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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i think the U.N. needs to start a Opium for Food Program.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: lonestar2004]
#3645184 - 01/18/05 07:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: i think the U.N. needs to start a Opium for Food Program.
And they need to give me the opium. I'll pay them kickbacks. Just like oil for food.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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usefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3645200 - 01/18/05 07:32 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Generally speaking, yes..considering the circumstances I think that the possibility it is at the very least worthy of investigation, and the fact that they have been caught doing it in the past should help open more people up to the fact that the whole idea is well within the realm of reason, and I would hope that once a majority have been exposed to the evidence that it would infuriate enough people in this country to the point where an independent investigation is more or less inevitable..as that is what is going to have to start happening if we are to ever escape from the closing jaws of what I may as well reffer to as slavery inc.
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3645481 - 01/18/05 08:22 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Everyone knows that the FBI admitted to bombing the WTC in 1993 right? The hired a nearly retarded muslim man to drive a van to the basement and park it close to a main pillar. The man was surprised when he found out there were real explosives in the van. Anyway, he didn't end up parking the van in the right place and the attack was a failure. This was reported in the new york times of all places.
Also here is a link to a report on insider trading before the attacks: http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=99402 (requires registration)
But then again im crazy and making this all up. The authority of the government knows all and loves its citizens very much! They will get rid of this boogieman for you, all you have to do is lose some freedoms and pay for an endless war with your taxes and the lives of your children. Don't worry, go back to sleep.
Look at how much money the weapons dealers, oil tycoons, drug dealers made from this event. Follow the money
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3645527 - 01/18/05 08:27 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Also, Read the book "Crossing The Rubicon" by Michael C. Ruppert, he does a good job of laying out all the evidence. And hes not some wacked out conspiracy writer. He comes from a family of CIA agents, and was a DEA agent himself. He was involved in exposing the drug importing that was and still is being done by the CIA.
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3645532 - 01/18/05 08:29 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
J4S0N said: Everyone knows that the FBI admitted to bombing the WTC in 1993 right?
I would fucking love to see a reliable source on that.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: z@z.com]
#3645665 - 01/18/05 08:47 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0408c.asp
heres a mirror (originally from new york times): http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html
The tapes have been released where FBI agents talk about how the bombs are to be constructed.
Here is an article about NORAD training: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/04/19/norad.exercise/index.html
Also i found this site: http://www.911truth.org/readingroom/index.html has quite a few links to most of the stuff I posted.
Do people know how to use search engines? Oh ya i forgot, everything on the internet is false. It has to be signed by some sort of authority figure before its real. pfft
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Posts: 8,978
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3645715 - 01/18/05 08:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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i did not know the F.B.I. admitted to bombing the WTC the first time.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3646117 - 01/18/05 09:51 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The tapes have been released where FBI agents talk about how the <FAKE> bombs are to be constructed.
Fixed.
The FBI never admitted to bombing anything, nor have they been implicated. They were using an informant to penetrate a muslim extremist organisation and the plan was called off well before the bombings took place. It says so right in your links.
Also, it is well known that the government took into account the possibility of hijacked planes being used as weapons long before 9/11. This is all old news and introduces nothing new. I dislike the government as much as the next guy but you need solid facts not distortions and half-truths twisted to your liking.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3646215 - 01/18/05 10:07 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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You claim that the FBI admitted to the bombing of the WTC in 1993. You then post links to prove your assertions. The first link you post(the www.fff.org link) claims something completely different. It says that the FBI was incompetent and didn't pursue clues in stopping the attack. There is a big difference between not believing an informant that said an attack was imminent, and actually participating in and encouraging the attack.
Edited by RandalFlagg (01/18/05 10:08 PM)
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3646247 - 01/18/05 10:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do people know how to use search engines? Oh ya i forgot, everything on the internet is false.
When something comes off of a loony conspiracy theory site with absolutely no credibility or supporting evidence I tend to be skeptical. So sue me.
It has to be signed by some sort of authority figure before its real. pfft
Does everything have to be a loony Left-Wing conspiracy theory in order for it to be real?
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3646288 - 01/18/05 10:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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So you all honestly beleive that Osama Bin Laden did the whole thing? With no help?
How did he get norad to stand down? How did get the funding? Why was afganistan attacked when nearly all the hi-jackers were from Saudi Arabia? How was were they able to hi-jack 4 planes and fly them into two of the worlds largest towers, and the most heavily gaurded building in the world with NO ONE in the government knowing whats going on? Why hasn't the FBI released the blackbox tapes from the airliners that were found? Why didn't anyone know what was going on with the terrorist, but within the same day the FBI was able to produce photos of the terrorists in the airports.. how were they able to identify them so quickly, but not able to stop them?
I know im crazy, but im also open to suggestions. I dont' see the evidence from either side. I see the outcomes, I see whos making money, I see whats happening to the freedom of Americans.
Osama publically admits to not having anything to do with the attacks, then later a tape shows up where he admits it. Then later people say it was a fake, then it disapears from the news.
What is really going on, thats all I want to know. I think the public should have a right to know whats going on. This is pretty serious stuff, especially since if the government had knowledge, or even worse had a part in it.
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3646343 - 01/18/05 10:34 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Heres a good one, Hi-jackers still alive: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
If the FBI was so sure they were the ones responsible, then why are they still alive?
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3646748 - 01/19/05 12:11 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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So you all honestly beleive that Osama Bin Laden did the whole thing?
Huh? We are not talking about Sept. 11. We are talking about the WTC bombing of 1993. You asserted that the FBI admitted to "doing" the bombing. You then provided links which did not say that at all. But, I will talk about Sept. 11 if you so desire.
How did he get norad to stand down?
Norad never stood down. There was so much confusion and chaos that they didn't respond in time.
How did get the funding?
It has been estimated that the Sept. 11 attacks cost $500,000. Osama Bin Laden is rich(he inherited a lot of money). The Al Qaeda organization has a lot of money as well(from private donors and drug smuggling).
Why was afganistan attacked when nearly all the hi-jackers were from Saudi Arabia?
Because Osama Bin Laden was using Afganhistan as a base of operations and the governing body of Afganhistan(the Taliban) allowed him to operate. His organization ran extensive training camps there. The Saudi's who participated in the Sept. 11 attacks were private citizens who acted of their own accord...they were not representing the Saudi government.
How was were they able to hi-jack 4 planes and fly them into two of the worlds largest towers, and the most heavily gaurded building in the world with NO ONE in the government knowing whats going on?
Because they were smart, planned well, and executed things well.
Why hasn't the FBI released the blackbox tapes from the airliners that were found?
I have no clue.
Why didn't anyone know what was going on with the terrorist, but within the same day the FBI was able to produce photos of the terrorists in the airports.. how were they able to identify them so quickly, but not able to stop them?
Think about this a second. It wouldn't take long to figure out which planes had been hijacked. Then all the authorities had to do was call the airports that those planes came out of and tell them to look at videotapes of the people getting on the planes. They already knew(from passenger cell phone calls) that the hijackers were Arab males. All they had to do was quickly look at the tapes for Arab males. It probably took airport officials five minutes to look at the tapes, another five minutes to pull up passenger info for the planes, and another five minutes to call INS and get info on the names of the Arab passengers. I'm not surprised that authorities had a good idea of who did it so quickly.
Osama publically admits to not having anything to do with the attacks, then later a tape shows up where he admits it. Then later people say it was a fake, then it disapears from the news.
In one of his most recent tapes, he admits that he was responsible for 9/11. There is ample evidence that the hijackers were trained in Afganhistan(read the 9/11 report) at Al Qaeda camps.
This is pretty serious stuff, especially since if the government had knowledge, or even worse had a part in it.
Yes, it is serious stuff. That's why you shouldn't believe garbage when contemplating this topic.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3646759 - 01/19/05 12:14 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Heres a good one, Hi-jackers still alive: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
If the FBI was so sure they were the ones responsible, then why are they still alive?
Are you terribly shocked that a sophisticated terrorist organization might have stolen people's indentities? It happens thousands of times a day in America.
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AhronZombi
AhronZombi
Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3647098 - 01/19/05 03:22 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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its crazy how the government is trying to brain wash us as fast as possible to think arabs did it, so that we dont see the truth. i saw a CNN segment today that said their is no reson these days not to suspect any arab that gets on a plane to be a terrorist, but still they have no proof at all that any arabs did it, but we have plenty of proof that the US government did it
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: AhronZombi]
#3647225 - 01/19/05 05:56 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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> but still they have no proof at all that any arabs did it, but we have plenty of proof that the US government did it
I do not think the word proof means what you think it means.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: st0nedphucker]
#3647368 - 01/19/05 07:54 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Osama bio - trained by CIA and supported by USA in Afgan action
CIA & bin Laden are in love
Osama bin Laden was recruited by the CIA to fight the Soviet occupation troops in Afghanistan. The budding guerrilla leader was trained and supplied by American taxpayers' dollars.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3647401 - 01/19/05 08:12 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dewd, Afghanistan has been growing poppies since before the days of Alexander. That's what they do there. The fact that for a few years under the Taliban opium production purportedly declined is (if true) an aberration -- a blip in the graph.
Strange then that the moment the anti heroin USA and UK get in the trade starts to soar again??? I mean what's the deal there? Awfully strange - and the last 2 years have been the highest crops on record. Succeeeding each other. Good work UK and USA - bet the back end of the governm,ent is taking baths in banknotes.
Quote:
By the way, does it strike anyone else as just slightly weird to see -- on a site dedicated to mind-altering natural substances, let's remember -- the implication that growing poppies is somehow a bad thing?
You are missing the point. The point is that the government says it is AT WAR WITH DRUGS. Yet under their control Afghanistan produces much more opium than under the Taleban, not only that Afghanistan produces the BIGGEST CROPS EVER!
Wow that's some going by the anti drugs government.
It is the hypocracy and lies that people are upset about, not poppies in themselves.
Governments are traditionally the greatest purveyors of drugs and it was really only the horror of the public after the invention and then use of the hyperdermic needle by those using the new opium derivative morphine in the late 1880s that began to make governments pretend they had morals on the subject. However they have kept their fingers in all the pies ever since and profit from the trade greatly, while still keeping a clean face.
The CIA needs limitless sources of invisible money and the government is desperate for resources since the USA is getting milked pretty dry. Besides this heroin is perhaps the ultimate capitalist product, something that takes no advertising and which people are literally willing to kill or crawl through shit to get.
The middle east has 2 of the worlds most profitable products, 2 of the ultimate capitalist products. Poppies (Heroin) and Oil....
The USA now controls both of them.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3647418 - 01/19/05 08:23 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Are you saying that the US is shipping Afghani opium overseas? Lol, what is with these cryptic statements?
Air America.....the CIA has been caught out before, that was in their attempts to narcotise and demonise the black inner city populace back in the '60's. Do you think they have changed??
In the late 1970s, as the United States was first becoming involved in the covert support for the Afghan mujahideen, Dr. David Musto, a member of the Carter administration's drug advisory board, issued a prescient warning that the United States was moving "into Afghanistan to support the opium growers in their rebellion against the Soviets. Shouldn't we, try," Dr. Musto asked, "to avoid what we had done in Laos?"
The Laos parallel was precise. Back in the 1960s and '70s, the CIA had conducted a secret war in Laos, which was predominantly funded by the sale of opium. The CIA's private airline, Air America, became notorious for its dope shuttle flights in and out of Southeast Asia's "Golden Triangle" opium region. The CIA station chief in Laos, Theodore G. Shackley, would later emerge as a key behind-the-scenes player in the Reagan-Bush-era secret wars.
The CIA/US was a major influence in Afghanistan to move the people from cannabis cultivation toward poppy cultivation. Maximising the profits all around.
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st0nedphucker
Rogue State
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Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3647485 - 01/19/05 08:45 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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This I know.
Perhaps my wording was a little confusing, I was requesting a source that details how the US government continued to fund OBL after the Soviet-Afghan war had ended and the collapse of USSR. To me at least, the 'early 90's' would suggest the latter half of Bush Snr's term and the first half of Clinton's first term.
-------------------- The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3647507 - 01/19/05 08:55 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why didn't anyone know what was going on with the terrorist, but within the same day the FBI was able to produce photos of the terrorists in the airports.. how were they able to identify them so quickly, but not able to stop them? Think about this a second. It wouldn't take long to figure out which planes had been hijacked. Then all the authorities had to do was call the airports that those planes came out of and tell them to look at videotapes of the people getting on the planes. They already knew(from passenger cell phone calls) that the hijackers were Arab males. All they had to do was quickly look at the tapes for Arab males. It probably took airport officials five minutes to look at the tapes, another five minutes to pull up passenger info for the planes, and another five minutes to call INS and get info on the names of the Arab passengers. I'm not surprised that authorities had a good idea of who did it so quickly.
This about the pentagon plane, but still worth noting:
A list of names on a piece of paper is not evidence, but an autopsy by a pathologist, is. I undertook by FOIA request, to obtain that autopsy list and you are invited to view it below. Guess what? Still no Arabs on the list. It is my opinion that the monsters who planned this crime made a mistake by not including Arabic names on the original list to make the ruse seem more believable.
You may have noticed that even before Sep 11th, that airlines are pretty meticulous about getting an accurate headcount before takeoff. It seems very unlikely to me, that five Arabs sneaked onto a flight with weapons. This is the list provided by American of the 56 passengers:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html On September 27th, the FBI published photos of the ?hijackers? of Flight 77:
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/aa77/77.htm
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), does a miraculous job and identified nearly all the bodies on November 16th 2001.
The AFIP suggest these numbers; 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were ?passengers? on the plane. The AA list only had 56 and the list just obtained has 58. They did not explain how they were able to tell ?victims? bodies from ?hijacker? bodies. In fact, from the beginning NO explanation has been given for the extra five suggested in news reports except that the FBI showed us the pictures to make up the difference, and that makes it so.
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3647566 - 01/19/05 09:18 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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CJay writes:
The point is that the government says it is AT WAR WITH DRUGS. Yet under their control Afghanistan produces much more opium than under the Taleban, not only that Afghanistan produces the BIGGEST CROPS EVER!
Under whose control? Afghanistan is not under the "control" of either the US or the UK. It may have escaped your notice, but the Afghanis recently elected their government -- something that has never occurred before in all of Afghanistan's recorded history. Some frequent posters here have argued that Afghanistan is under no one's control at all outside Kabul and a few other urban areas. I doubt many people grow poppies in Kabul.
It is the hypocracy and lies that people are upset about, not poppies in themselves.
What hypocricy? Which "lies"?
Governments are traditionally the greatest purveyors of drugs...
Bullshit. Which government? The government of Burma, maybe.
However they have kept their fingers in all the pies ever since and profit from the trade greatly, while still keeping a clean face.
"Ever since"? Bullshit. Explain to us please specifically how Blair's government (for example) "profits" from the trade in opiates. None of this cop-out vague phraseology of "keeping fingers in pies". I want specific examples of the methodology involved here. Does the UK government purchase raw opium from farmers in Afghanistan? Do they run refining labs? Do they import it into Britain and then sell it to street suppliers and throw the proceeds into general tax revenues?
The CIA needs limitless sources of invisible money...
Actually, no it doesn't.
...and the government is desperate for resources since the USA is getting milked pretty dry.
Actually, no it isn't. Government tax revenues in 2004 were up 10.5%. There's no shortage of money for CIA operations.
The USA now controls both of them.
Bullshit. The USA doesn't control Afghanistan's poppy crop.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3647573 - 01/19/05 09:20 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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J4SON writes:
Also, Read the book "Crossing The Rubicon" by Michael C. Ruppert, he does a good job of laying out all the evidence. And hes not some wacked out conspiracy writer.
Yes he is. Mike Ruppert has been so thoroughly discredited by so many independent sources there's no space in this forum to list them all. He's a sketchy character -- always has been. Ruppert is one of the biggest con artists around today. Why people take anything he says as true is a complete mystery to me.
pinky
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J4S0N
human
Registered: 07/29/04
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Seuss]
#3647873 - 01/19/05 10:54 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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http://www.americanfreepress.net/051302/FBI_Admits__No_Evidence_/fbi_admits__no_evidence_.html Heres a good one, FBI admits there is no evidence to link the hi-jackers.
http://www.freedomdomain.com/Templemount/9_11q.html Heres is one from a explosion expert who says the towers were brought down by controlled demolition.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/032404firefightersdiscuss.html Here is a clip of firefighters discussing bombs going off in the building.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/121104easilywithstood.htm WTC Construction Certifiers Say Towers Should Have Easily Withstood Jet Fuel Temperatures
And last, the media likes to make it look like people like me are all alone, but here are some interesting polls. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2004/310804zogbypoll.htm half of new york believes it was the government.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/111104cnnpoll.htm 89% of CNN viewers thought it was a government job (yet i know its an internet poll).
The people that were actually there that day reported many things that don't show up in the official story. Mostly the firefighters, which have been banned from talking to the media, and all the radio recordings have been classified.
If you listen to some recorded news broadcasts from that day you'll constantly hear about bomb blasts going off.
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3648074 - 01/19/05 12:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Osama bin Laden was recruited by the CIA to fight the Soviet occupation troops in Afghanistan. The budding guerrilla leader was trained and supplied by American taxpayers' dollars.
Bin Laden was fighting the Soviets. The Soviets were the enemies of the U.S. I'm not surprised nor would I care if Bin Laden got training or money from the CIA in the 80's.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3648118 - 01/19/05 12:35 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Strange then that the moment the anti heroin USA and UK get in the trade starts to soar again??? I mean what's the deal there? Awfully strange - and the last 2 years have been the highest crops on
Poppies are a huge cash crop in Afganhistan. The reason Afganhi people grow it is because they can make good money with it. The Taliban was very strict in making people not grow it. Now the new government doesn't have as much "scare ability" as the Taliban did(the new government doesn't execute people left and right like the Taliban did). I am not surprised that poppy production has increased.
The CIA needs limitless sources of invisible money and the government is desperate for resources since the USA is getting milked pretty dry. Besides this heroin is perhaps the ultimate capitalist product, something that takes no advertising and which people are literally willing to kill or crawl through shit to get.
Show me proof that any U.S. government agencies are involved in the heroin trade. I wouldn't be surprised if they were however. It's easy money that would be used to fund important stuff.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3648186 - 01/19/05 12:52 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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A list of names on a piece of paper is not evidence, but an autopsy by a pathologist, is. I undertook by FOIA request, to obtain that autopsy list and you are invited to view it below. Guess what? Still no Arabs on the list. It is my opinion that the monsters who planned this crime made a mistake by not including Arabic names on the original list to make the ruse seem more believable.
Ok...you viewed an autopsy list where the hijackers weren't listed. So, from that you automatically assume that because no arabs were listed on that list that they were not on the plane. Who knows what the parameters for that list was? It could have listed only "victims" and omitted the terrorists. How do you account for the fact that numerous relatives got calls from the planes? The people calling from the plane said, "Arab males have hijacked us." Do you think all of those family members are lying?
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3648218 - 01/19/05 12:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I heard news on CNN about these phones calls the day of sept 11, but not to much after that. I do know however that the FCC bans cell phones calls from planes, because they claim it interferes with the planes electronics. Do they allow you to have your cell phone but not use it? Or are you not allowed to take it on the plane?
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Loc: Calgary, Alberta
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3648225 - 01/19/05 01:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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You are allowed to take cell phones on planes...but you need to have them turned off.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3648251 - 01/19/05 01:07 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://www.americanfreepress.net/051302/FBI_Admits__No_Evidence_/fbi_admits__no_evidence_.html Heres a good one, FBI admits there is no evidence to link the hi-jackers.
Link doesn't work.
http://www.freedomdomain.com/Templemount/9_11q.html Heres is one from a explosion expert who says the towers were brought down by controlled demolition.
Why the hell haven't the multitudes of explosive experts in this country came to the same conclusion?
http://www.prisonplanet.com/032404firefightersdiscuss.html Here is a clip of firefighters discussing bombs going off in the building.
I am on dial-up, so I will not watch movies(it takes an hour to download small ones).
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/121104easilywithstood.htm WTC Construction Certifiers Say Towers Should Have Easily Withstood Jet Fuel Temperatures
That's the only thing of interest that you posted.
And last, the media likes to make it look like people like me are all alone, but here are some interesting polls. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2004/310804zogbypoll.htm half of new york believes it was the government.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/111104cnnpoll.htm 89% of CNN viewers thought it was a government job (yet i know its an internet poll).
I don't give a shit what a poll says. I care about actual evidence.
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faslimy
Dead Man
Registered: 04/04/04
Posts: 3,436
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3648949 - 01/19/05 03:25 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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WHy some of you are even bothering arguing this topic is beyond me. Some people say they will not believe in a massive conspiracy against the world until they see absolute proof.. if there was going to be absolute proof.. like maybe an article on CNN (lol if thats what you think is proof) then it wouldn't be a very sucuessful conspiracy would it?
The masonic plans are running beautifully as far as I can see, divide the nation. Create distrust and confusion. You are all juggling with these 'facts' which were fed to you by media corporations.. you choose what to believe and what to discredit as bullshit, anything that doesn't fit your own little truth story is instantly written off.
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faslimy
Dead Man
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649004 - 01/19/05 03:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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oh and randalflagg it doesnt take a fucking genius to figure out that if you were a profesional descrediting something from a powerful organisation implying some VERY SERIOUS SHIT you might get your career and perhaps your life erased... these kinds of threats go on every day and play a large factor in the reasons CNN or anyone else doesn't write an article giving you some 'evidence' you seem to desperatly need
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: faslimy]
#3649018 - 01/19/05 03:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Isn't a Mason someone who builds archways? Oh, and on a separate note, FEMA... helps American disaster victims PAY THEIR BILLS (FEMA aren't the Men in Black... not EVEN close).
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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faslimy
Dead Man
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Posts: 3,436
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rose]
#3649093 - 01/19/05 03:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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did i say mason? no i said masonic
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: faslimy]
#3649108 - 01/19/05 03:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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You are all juggling with these 'facts' which were fed to you by media corporations.. you choose what to believe and what to discredit as bullshit, anything that doesn't fit your own little truth story is instantly written off.
These news corporations have a history and a reputation of providing accurate information. I would trust a major news organization that is held to an accountable standard(notice how CBS got slammed for the "Memogate" fiasco) more than some site called "www.stopthewar.com" or "www.BushknewbutIhavenoevidencetoproveitIjustknowit.com".
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: faslimy]
#3649134 - 01/19/05 04:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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oh and randalflagg it doesnt take a fucking genius to figure out that if you were a profesional descrediting something from a powerful organisation implying some VERY SERIOUS SHIT you might get your career and perhaps your life erased.
Has anybody who insinuated complicity or questioned the government's role in 9-11 disappeared? If they did it would be ALL over the news and all kinds of wacky conspiracy theories and accusations would be flying around.
.. these kinds of threats go on every day and play a large factor in the reasons CNN or anyone else doesn't write
You seem to be asserting that journalists and experts are being routinely threatened with their lives to not report the truth. Do you have any proof of that?
an article giving you some 'evidence' you seem to desperatly need
How horrible of me...when someone insinuates that my government ruthlessly killed 3,000 people and I demand evidence to prove it...the nerve and gall that I have!! How dare I actually want some verifiable and concrete evidence from reputable and informed sources!
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faslimy
Dead Man
Registered: 04/04/04
Posts: 3,436
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649135 - 01/19/05 04:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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And I would go the complete opposite, so do you see a little problem trend occuring here?
I would much rather read opinions from people who spend their lives researching and providing information on a website. Than a large corporation which is solely for profit and therefor very easily bribed and corrupted.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649203 - 01/19/05 04:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Has anybody who insinuated complicity or questioned the government's role in 9-11 disappeared?
Yes...Mike Vreeland has disapeared.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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blacksabbathrulz
Registered: 05/22/02
Posts: 2,511
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3649222 - 01/19/05 04:14 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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A lot of people in this thread should read this link:
http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html
-------------------- .
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Of course...anyone that thinks that the U.S. government would lie to it's own people MUST be crazy.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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blacksabbathrulz
Registered: 05/22/02
Posts: 2,511
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3649240 - 01/19/05 04:17 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rono said: Of course...anyone that thinks that the U.S. government would lie to it's own people MUST be crazy.
These are the same people who don't have a rudimentary understanding of physics....
-------------------- .
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3649256 - 01/19/05 04:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes...Mike Vreeland has disapeared.
Elaborate.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3649278 - 01/19/05 04:23 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Of course...anyone that thinks that the U.S. government would lie to it's own people MUST be crazy.
I am perfectly willing to accept that possibility, if I could see some believable evidence from someone.....anyone...All I have seen so far is garbage and innuendo from extreme Left-Wing sources that hate the U.S. federal government and are therefore biased.
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faslimy
Dead Man
Registered: 04/04/04
Posts: 3,436
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649296 - 01/19/05 04:26 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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visit the website in my signature and try spend a few hours reading
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: faslimy]
#3649311 - 01/19/05 04:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
faslimy said: did i say mason? no i said masonic
What word do you think gave us Masonic? masonic adj 1: of or relating to stonemasons or masonry; "masonic tools" 2: of or relating to Freemasons or Freemasonry; "Masonic lodge" [syn: Masonic]
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: faslimy]
#3649323 - 01/19/05 04:31 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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freedom domain political conspiracies hemp marijuana sovereignty consciousness underground politics hemp jfk assassination flying saucers patriot movement sacred mushroom cannabis sativa jesus christ mind control alternative therapies goddess worship secret handshake biblical prophecy knights templar illuminati freemasons
Bwahaha!!!
I haven't even gotten past the welcome page and they have listed every possible conspiracy theory topic that Man has ever thought up. When it comes to 9-11 research...I expect educated people doing legitimate work. Not people talking about "mind control", "flying saucers", and "freemasons".
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649339 - 01/19/05 04:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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How about you tell me what sources you would consider as reliable....and I'll find examples? Sound Fair?
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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faslimy
Dead Man
Registered: 04/04/04
Posts: 3,436
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3649381 - 01/19/05 04:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's not 'they' just one guy, and I think that is one of those things to help your webpage come up on search engines like i said read on, it is a VERY informative website with also some excellent books available
Edited by faslimy (01/19/05 04:41 PM)
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3649418 - 01/19/05 04:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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How about you tell me what sources you would consider as reliable....and I'll find examples? Sound Fair?
I have read through a lot of the 9/11 report. I believe it. If you can show me evidence that what the 9/11 report says is bullshit, I will listen. I want real evidence presented by respectable people who do not have an agenda.
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Rono
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649448 - 01/19/05 04:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am perfectly willing to accept that possibility, if I could see some believable evidence from someone.....anyone...All I have seen so far is garbage and innuendo from extreme Left-Wing sources that hate the U.S. federal government and are therefore biased.
How about right from the horses mouth...Just a few lies that were told about Iraq. "Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.? State of the Union Address ? 1/28/2003
Iraq has 500 tons of chemical weapons: - Sarin gas - Mustard gas - VX Nerve agent Not True Zero Chemical Weapons Found Not a drop of any chemical weapons has been found anywhere in Iraq
?U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents.? State of the Union Address ? 1/28/2003 Not True Zero Munitions Found Not a single chemical weapon?s munition has been found anywhere in Iraq
?We have also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas." State of the Union Address ? 1/28/2003 Not True Zero Aerial Vehicles Found Not a single aerial vehicle capable of dispersing chemical or biological weapons, has been found anywhere in Iraq
"Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of Al Qaida." State of the Union Address ? 1/28/2003 Not True Zero Al Qaeda Connection To date, not a shred of evidence connecting Hussein with Al Qaida or any other known terrorist organizations have been revealed. (besides certain Palestinian groups who represent no direct threat to the US)
"Our intelligence sources tell us that he (Saddam) has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production." State of the Union Address ? 1/28/2003 Not True The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) as well as dozens of leading scientists declared said tubes unsuitable for nuclear weapons production -- months before the war.
"Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at [past nuclear] sites." Bush speech to the nation ? 10/7/2002 Not True Two months of inspections at these former Iraqi nuclear sites found zero evidence of prohibited nuclear activities there IAEA report to UN Security Council ? 1/27/2003
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." State of the Union Address ? 1/28/2003 Not True The documents implied were known at the time by Bush to be forged and not credible.
"We know he's been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." VP Dick Cheney ? ?Meet the Press? 3/16/2003 Not True ?The IAEA had found no evidence or plausible indication of the revival of a nuclear weapons program in Iraq." IAEA report to UN Security Council ? 3/7/2003
"We gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in." Bush Press Conference 7/14/2003 Not True UN inspectors went into Iraq to search for possible weapons violations from December 2002 into March 2003
yet many Americans continue to believe everything this blatant liar says as gospel.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Rono
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649462 - 01/19/05 04:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I have read through a lot of the 9/11 report. I believe it. If you can show me evidence that what the 9/11 report says is bullshit, I will listen. I want real evidence presented by respectable people who do not have an agenda.
So what you are saying is that the only source you will accept is the 9/11 report...is that correct?
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3649514 - 01/19/05 05:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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So what you are saying is that the only source you will accept is the 9/11 report...is that correct?
No, you misread me. I'm saying I have read a lot of the 9/11 report and I believe it is as accurate of a representation of what happened as I have seen so far. However, if you can show me some believable evidence from a respectable source that contradicts the "official" story of 9/11, I will listen. I have yet to see any 9/11 conspiracy theories that weren't garbage.
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usefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649524 - 01/19/05 05:04 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do you have any evidence to suggest that anything in this indisputable 9/11 report is infact accurate? Your automatically taking it to heart and then pointing fingers at others for even considering otherwise is pratical hypocracy. What kind of evidence are you looking for? If you ended up finding something sufficient, would you even be willing to change your position? You say you are willing to listen, but I still see you filtering out what you do not like and blaming others for having some kind of 'agenda'? What's the problem with having an agenda if it's purpose is to seek and exploit the truth? Until you can understand who is actually benefitting from the situation, and who may have actually had the motives to excecute this so-called 'new pearl harbor' and why, you will not understand how the 9/11 report can and is most likely a complete fraud.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3649533 - 01/19/05 05:06 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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When I say I wanted proof of government lying...I was referring to 9/11, not Iraq. I have always thought that there were tons of geopolitical reasons for taking out Saddam, and the WMD argument was either a lie or a minor reason for wanting to get rid of Saddam.
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Rono
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649544 - 01/19/05 05:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
No, you misread me. I'm saying I have read a lot of the 9/11 report and I believe it is as accurate of a representation of what happened as I have seen so far. However, if you can show me some believable evidence from a respectable source that contradicts the "official" story of 9/11, I will listen. I have yet to see any 9/11 conspiracy theories that weren't garbage.
So again I ask...give me a source that you would consider as reliable.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: usefulidiot]
#3649594 - 01/19/05 05:21 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do you have any evidence to suggest that anything in this indisputable 9/11 report is infact accurate?
The 9/11 report was the result of a public hearing of respected elected officials who interviewed witnesses. If there had been any major problems with how the report was written or the proceedings were conducted, we would have heard about it. I have yet to see any information that is believable and proven and that contradicts the 9/11 report. If you have any, please post it.
Your automatically taking it to heart and then pointing fingers at others for even considering otherwise is pratical hypocracy.
It is perfectly fine to consider other viewpoints. It is perfectly fine to think the 9/11 report is not accurate. I think that the evidence that the 9/11 commission put forth(which relied on eye-witnesses and documented and verifiable evidence) was much more believeable than some douchebag on the internet who comes up with implausible scenarios which he has no proof for.
What kind of evidence are you looking for? If you ended up finding something sufficient,
Real evidence from educated people who have come to a consensus and who know what they are talking about.
would you even be willing to change your position?
Yes.
You say you are willing to listen, but I still see you filtering out what you do not like and blaming others for having some kind of 'agenda'? What's the problem with having an agenda if it's purpose is to seek and exploit the truth?
When somebody has an agenda they are biased. When people are biased they make shit up or exaggerate things. Why the hell would I trust stories from an extreme Left-Wing source who absolutely hates everything America stands for and what it does? They will do anything to discredit America...including espousing wacky theories. Now...if one of these Left-Wing sources actually comes up with a reasonable hypothesis which is indisputable and supported by evidence then I will listen. I have yet to see any 9/11 conspiracy theory stories that hold up to examination.
Until you can understand who is actually benefitting from the situation,
I don't give a shit about who is benefitting from the situation. I care about what actually happened. When my father died, I benefitted monetarily because I inherited some life insurance money. Does that mean I was responsible for his death(he died of a stroke hundreds of miles away)?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3649616 - 01/19/05 05:26 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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So again I ask...give me a source that you would consider as reliable.
Respected and non-biased news or educational organizations.
How about Fox News or something.
But seriously, you are the one who was thinking of posting something, so how about you post something and I will determine if I trust the source. Some wacky story from www.BushplanneditallandIhavethefabricatedevidencetoproveit.com isn't going to cut it.
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faslimy
Dead Man
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649630 - 01/19/05 05:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have not even bothered looking deeper into the exact cause of the two towers collapse, I don't think I would ever be convinced of ANY evidence. I believe that the whole event was orchestrated to create initial chaos and then a need for the American government faculties (armies, special ops etc) to do such extreme things as we have seen since 9/11, and these are just the things they choose to tell us about... I also think that people have instigated bogus conspiracies to incourage people to discredit all conspiracies because a conspiracy nearly ALWAYS sounds like bullshit when you first read about it because your brain freaks when its 'facts' don't line up.
Edited by faslimy (01/19/05 05:30 PM)
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Rono
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649652 - 01/19/05 05:31 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
But seriously, you are the one who was thinking of posting something, so how about you post something and I will determine if I trust the source.
How about you just give me a source that you would consider as trustworthy...or can you not think of one?
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3649683 - 01/19/05 05:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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How about you just give me a source that you would consider as trustworthy...or can you not think of one?
I have a feeling you are trying to bait me into a trap...but I'll oblige you anyway.
I have yet to see any bullshit from the BBC. I have seen a little bias from CNN, but that can be ignored and you can be comfortable that the facts they are reporting are real. From what I have read and seen of the 9/11 commission hearings and the report, I am comfortable that it is accurate and exhaustive.
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Rono
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3649787 - 01/19/05 05:58 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I have a feeling you are trying to bait me into a trap...
...maybe it's a conspiracy. Fair enough...So the sources you chose are CNN, BBC and the 9/11 commssion...correct? Let me see what I can dig up, although I suspect this might be pretty easy.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (01/19/05 05:59 PM)
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3649895 - 01/19/05 06:22 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you listen to some recorded news broadcasts from that day you'll constantly hear about bomb blasts going off.
You have any idea how loud concrete breaking and/or steel snapping can be? Or floors collapsing? I imagine it very well may sound like a bomb.
If bombs had gone off, we would have seen the evidence on the video footage of the towers.. no ifs, ands, or buts. Bombs explode, and explosions entail visible consequences.. gases expelled rapidly outward, flashes of light. I saw nothing of the sort, and I watched them fall. You may have been able to set off a hand grenade in the middle of the building.. but that's not going to do jack shit.
Quote:
Do they allow you to have your cell phone but not use it? Or are you not allowed to take it on the plane?
You can have your phone, you've just got to turn it off and not use it. In addition almost every plane I've been on has Skyphones on the backs of the seats.. I've never used 'em because I hear it's expensive, but you can use those to call people in-flight. I wouldn't be surprized if some people used those, and some people turned on their own cell phones to call out.
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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Rono
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Mushmonkey]
#3649941 - 01/19/05 06:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Unfortunately...the technology to use cell phones from the air was not available yet at the time of 9-11 American Airlines and QUALCOMM Complete Test Flight to Evaluate In-Cabin Mobile Phone Use Yet The 911 Commission points to the clarity and detail of these telephone conversations. Aviation Week (07/20/04) described this new technology in an authoritative report published in July 2004: "Qualcomm and American Airlines are exploring [July 2004] ways for passengers to use commercial cell phones inflight for air-to-ground communication. In a recent 2-hr. proof-of-concept flight, representatives from government and the media used commercial Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA) third-generation cell phones to place and receive calls and text messages from friends on the ground." Kind of puts a new spin things eh?...
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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JacquesSauniere
mr
Registered: 07/19/04
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Mushmonkey]
#3649957 - 01/19/05 06:35 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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hey one good thing has come of this, with the taliban not in control of afghanistan, and the increase of coccaine in the current market, charlie has hit an all time low in terms of price that i haven't seen in years. i mean this could be of other factors, but if what you guys say is true then with that the decrease in price can only be a good thing for users (depending on the view you take)
way more to party with at the weekend now, woohoo!
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usefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
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Not to mention more police in riot gear eagerly waiting to smash your door down and shoot your dog
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3650025 - 01/19/05 06:50 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ugh, airplanes travel a maximum of about 5 miles above the ground and im pretty sure i can get a wireless signal 5 miles from a tower. In rural areas, cells are spaced up to 20 miles apart.
This was a test to see if an airline can carry a cell with it for use on, for example, intercontinental flights.
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SWEDEN
Miracle of Science
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3650041 - 01/19/05 06:52 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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a new spin?
do you mean to tell us that those cell phone calls were fabricated because it would have been impossible at the time for a call to get through? That the altitude and speed of the airplane would have been too great for a recipient on the ground to recieve even 1% of the signal? That reliable government sources made up each of these calls in order to more thoroughly fool the American sheople? That these trusted sources would lie to us? Because if that is what you are saying, you, sir, are correct.
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: SWEDEN]
#3650116 - 01/19/05 07:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Again, you can get a wireless signal on a plane. The FCC is actually debating right now if they should universally allow cell phone calls on planes because it is currently banned due to the fears that tower communication could get disrupted. Im not sure where you get the argument that planes travel too fast to allow cell phone calls. lol, thats just ridiculous. Its not like they are traveling near the speed of light, just a few hundred miles/hour tops. I dont know where you guys get this stuff.
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SWEDEN
Miracle of Science
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3650133 - 01/19/05 07:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Before this new "Pico cell," it was nigh on impossible to make a call from a passenger aircraft in flight. Connection is impossible at altitudes over 8000 feet or speeds in excess of 230 mph.
http://www.nypress.com/17/30/news&columns/AlanCabal.cfm
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3650149 - 01/19/05 07:09 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's not the speed that is in question...it's the altitude.
Anything over 8000 feet, cell phone communication is next to impossible.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rono]
#3650215 - 01/19/05 07:20 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Air Phones anyone?
In the back of EVERY F*ing seat? Anyone? Anyone? Bueler?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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SWEDEN
Miracle of Science
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Rose]
#3650225 - 01/19/05 07:22 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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every seat? no, not every seat, and not every plane. flight 77 did have airphones though.
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Edited by SWEDEN (01/19/05 07:28 PM)
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: SWEDEN]
#3650239 - 01/19/05 07:25 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ahhh yes, true. But phones are on every other seat in most American Boeings. Especially on airlines like United and American. Especially on buisness flights. This WAS a Tuesday morning flight, after all. Air phones are FOR intercontinental, buisness flights. The hijackers even TOLD the people to use the phones.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: SWEDEN]
#3650288 - 01/19/05 07:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Whether they were cell phones or satellite phones, I still dont see how you can discount real people recieving real phone calls from real relatives. If so, than this conspiracy far exceeds the scope of anything I can imagine. You would need to have those people either on the ground and holding a gun to thier heads or record previous phone calls and use an elaborate splicing technique..Or it could just be that the alien voice simulation technology left behind from the battles between the grays and the knights templar has finally been reverse engineered.
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3650603 - 01/19/05 08:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorry if im not replying to the correct people, here is another one.
Former German Defense Minister Confirms CIA Involvement in 9/11 http://www.prisonplanet.com/020804vonbuelow.html But since hes not an american hes lying, not a valid source.
Also how many people are aware that Boeings can be flown by remote control? Yes, these planes can be taken over from the ground and landed completely by remote control. So why didn't this happen?
NORAD stood down, simple as that. No one has given me a valid source as to WHY this happened.
Ah whatever, theres always going to be those super patriot type of people who will follow their leaders to the graves. Nothing I can do about it.
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3650629 - 01/19/05 08:52 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Also here is an article about the problem with the Cell phone story: http://www.rense.com/general56/moreholes.htm Why hasn't the FBI released the blackbox recordings? Surely they would be the smoking gun to prove the offical story true. But thats not going to happen. In fact the rescue worker that found it was threatened not to say anything. Any also how does the cell phone calls prove anything anyhow? From what i've read the messages were like "We're being hi-jacked".. not very discriptive.
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
Edited by J4S0N (01/19/05 11:35 PM)
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SWEDEN
Miracle of Science
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3650647 - 01/19/05 08:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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"wasn't threatened" you mean was threatened right? The cell phone issue is important not because of the content of the calls but whether or not the calls could have been made at all. If a cell phone does not function at a certain altitude, then it does not function, and those calls were fabricated. Then again if all of the calls which were released to the public (some were withheld because of family members' wishes) were made from air-phones, then the cell phone argument is a moot point.
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Rose
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Catalysis]
#3650672 - 01/19/05 09:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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AIR PHONES...
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3651267 - 01/19/05 11:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Also here is an article about the problem with the Cell phone story: http://www.rense.com/general56/moreholes.htm This is interesting. I have seen many sites claim that cell phone calls are practically impossible from over 8,000 feet. And, supposedly a lot of cell and air phone calls originated from Flight 93(the flight that crashed into the field). So, people ask how did all of the calls originate from a plane that was quite probably over 8,000 for most of the flight. I have looked around and have found no credible sources debunking this question. However, I have seen a lot of posts from people saying stuff like, "I have made secret cell phone calls on planes before and it worked just fine". I would really like to hear from some respected telecommunications engineers on this. The 9/11 report specifically says that air and cell phones were used by the passengers.
Edited by RandalFlagg (01/19/05 11:32 PM)
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3651335 - 01/19/05 11:50 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm no "telecommunications engineer", but I have made cell phone calls from a plane before with no problems.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Twister
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3651558 - 01/20/05 12:49 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
How about you just give me a source that you would consider as trustworthy...or can you not think of one?
I have a feeling you are trying to bait me into a trap...but I'll oblige you anyway.
I have yet to see any bullshit from the BBC. I have seen a little bias from CNN, but that can be ignored and you can be comfortable that the facts they are reporting are real. From what I have read and seen of the 9/11 commission hearings and the report, I am comfortable that it is accurate and exhaustive.
If you consider CNN a trustworthy source then you have a very different definition than I do of what is trustworthy. In one particular istance CNN aired what is known as a video news release on a controversial medicare law. It was presented by a public relations representative named Karen Ryan as an actual news story. News stories, however, are not paid for by the government, which this particular video news release was. The simple fact CNN aired the VNR, which was one-sided and funded by the government, shows a severe lack of journalistic integrity. So, perhaps you should reevaluate what is credible. I would personally rather believe a conspiracy theorist with relatively little to gain then a news organization that blatantly airs slanted information for a little government cash. CNN isn't the only news organization that airs slanted VNRs either. All that the media outlets care about is money; and why trust anyone, or anything, that can be bought.
Here's an article that deals with the situation that I refer to: http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/20865/
So it seems like you are going to have to settle with the info in the 9-11 report because, by your standards of objectivity, no news organization will should have the credibility that you deem necessary for something to be believable.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Twister]
#3652315 - 01/20/05 04:20 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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The planes were flying LOW for a while too. On the East Coast... Lots of cell towers in the East!
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: SWEDEN]
#3652899 - 01/20/05 09:09 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
every seat? no, not every seat, and not every plane.
Everyone on the plane has access to an airphone, and every plane?
Nope, not every plane -- the smaller puddlejumpers don't have them. Any plane that I've ever flown on that was in the air for more than an hour was large enough they were equipped with the phones.
Each plane hijacked on 9/11 was a transcontinental flight. A large plane, a fucking NEW plane.. weren't they 777's or 767's? A plane that big -will- have airphones.
Anyway, these planes were quite a bit lower than 8,000 feet.. if the facts in that article are correct. I really doubt you can't get a signal above that height and faster than 230mph.. that pretty much makes no sense really. I see no reason why you could NOT get a signal. Cell phones are prohibited because it is believed they may interfere with the electronics of the aircraft, possibly to the extent that the plane would crash.
I've yet to see anything more than hearsay that cell phones cannot be used over 8,000 feet or more than 230 mph. Fact is, that is not why you can't use your cell phone on a plane. If that were the case, they wouldn't tell you to turn them off, would they? You'd just be uselessly burning your battery. Nope.. it's a safety issue. And if you want a conspiracy, it SHOULD be that your cell phone DOES work fine, they merely claim a safety issue to try and force people into using their high-priced airphones. I know that's one crackpot theory I've heard many, many, many times before 9/11.. and is quite a bit more likely to be true than cell phones NOT working.
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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SWEDEN
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Mushmonkey]
#3652975 - 01/20/05 09:43 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Although, for some reason, the 9/11 commision report does not differentiate between calls made from cell phones and calls made from airphones, it does mention calls that were made from lavatories. Lavatories typicaly are not equipped with airphones. But I think the cell phone issue is not worth arguing for either way.
What about the Fake Osama who claimed responsibility for the attacks? Now there's a serious discrepancy worth looking at closer.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape2.html
notice differences in the facial structures. notice how he writes with the opposite hand notice that he wearing a gold ring, something that is forbidden by Islam.
Unless Osama is an ambidextrous polytheistic shapeshifter, it is likey that this recording was faked.
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CJay
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: SWEDEN]
#3653170 - 01/20/05 10:53 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Under whose control? Afghanistan is not under the "control" of either the US or the UK. It may have escaped your notice, but the Afghanis recently elected their government
Get real - puppet, troll, special fx. The most dubious election in history save G 'dubious' Bush's first.
Quote:
Some frequent posters here have argued that Afghanistan is under no one's control at all outside Kabul and a few other urban areas. I doubt many people grow poppies in Kabul.
Bloody stupid to take over the country then - stupid Americans have bitten off way more than they can chew in that case and opened up another realm of chaos and lawlessness - Doh! Well done! Great for the gangs at least eh? Oh and all the junkies.
Oh well at least they have mapped their ideas network onto the people and allowed capitalism to take root fully. Now the farmers all know they can grow a crop that they can make the best profit from and export via the new entrepeneurial capitalist system the Americans have bequeathed them with. Not to mention the connections and a helpful hand from the CIA import-export team.
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C:It is the hypocracy and lies that people are upset about, not poppies in themselves.
P:What hypocricy? Which "lies"?
What planet are you on? Think outside that tiny box they've given you.
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C:Governments are traditionally the greatest purveyors of drugs...
P:Bullshit. Which government? The government of Burma, maybe.
Ever heard of the opium wars? Do you know where Hong Kong came from? Ever heard of the British East India company? Ever wonder who ran the outrageously lucrative tea trade that the British Empire's industry was built on? Ever heard of the Boston Tea Party, a critical juncture that moved the power of drug control from one government to a new subsidary? Ever heard of the almighty tax governments place on all legal drugs that they effectively contract out entrepeneurs to do the work selling? Ever heard of Walter Ralleigh and the tobacco story? Ever wondered why the US tobacco growers are so heavily subsidised by their government? Ever heard of the CIA, heard of Air America? Oh and that Russian government ship pulled up with tons of heroin on board? Ever heard of MKUltra and its almighty backfire? Ever heard of the invention of MDMA, and that backfire in the trenches? Ever hear about 'Monster' from the legendary LA Crips, know what he went down for, after leaving a life of crime? etc ad nauseaum
Whatever is workable in their favour is worked, whatever isn't is banned and covered up, and the public's attention is drawn away to other substances and comforts. Whatever works in their favour, but is recieved with moral outrage is shifted to the back end... *sssh*
Quote:
Explain to us please specifically how Blair's government (for example) "profits" from the trade in opiates. None of this cop-out vague phraseology of "keeping fingers in pies". I want specific examples of the methodology involved here. Does the UK government purchase raw opium from farmers in Afghanistan? Do they run refining labs? Do they import it into Britain and then sell it to street suppliers and throw the proceeds into general tax revenues?
read between the lines and use your brain - what is happening in Afghanistan right now? Look at what is in front of you not where you are told to. It seems to me an elite organisation that calls itself government, wants to run the world if it can run more than its own country, and has an insatiable need for riches; this elite bunch which traditionally controlled ans dealt psychoactive substances itself or was the main profiteer from controlling these substances cannot give up. Sure Blair himself has clean hands, but then doesn't he always???
I'm sure the government itself does not own any labs or suchlike, certainly not the front end of government. However the sheer ubiquity of these most taboo of substances and past history leads me to believe that some of these elite are making a lot of money for looking the other way and giving the odd helping hand. Besides it gives the front end of the government a real good reason for us to need them - they'd be lost and unecessary if it wasn't for this evil trade (amongst other similar issues)from which they must protect us.
I doubt any proceeds go into tax revenues, more likely invisible money for MI5/6, and the lining of many a toff's pocket
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The CIA needs limitless sources of invisible money...
Actually, no it doesn't.
Actually it does....you think all these endless covert operations, payoffs, invisible wars and secret campaigns & experiments come for free? The CIA lost out on it's monopoly of tax on the Mafia it enjoyed through the Prohibition, and it lost it main man Hoover....but it goes on strong still. It is a secret service....with many secrets.
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C:...and the government is desperate for resources since the USA is getting milked pretty dry.
P:Actually, no it isn't. Government tax revenues in 2004 were up 10.5%. There's no shortage of money for CIA operations.
It's not enough for the megolamaniac, it's not enough for the rich. It's simply not enough. Tax is always going up till the point of revolution or at least heinous unpopularity that makes the government shit themselves and throw out a bone, it has nothing to do with what is needed and nothing to do with meeting costs. It has everything to do with greed.
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C:The USA now controls both of them.
P:Bullshit. The USA doesn't control Afghanistan's poppy crop.
Want a bet? Sure it doesn't have US citizens down there growing it, but the USA has it's puppet in control of its new 'colonial' territory. Crops are soaring to previously unknown heights, and the masters oversee from afar the glorious move to capitalism, it's beautiful.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3653177 - 01/20/05 10:55 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bin Laden was fighting the Soviets. The Soviets were the enemies of the U.S. I'm not surprised nor would I care if Bin Laden got training or money from the CIA in the 80's.
They created a monster mwaaahahahaha
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3653207 - 01/20/05 11:04 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Show me proof that any U.S. government agencies are involved in the heroin trade. I wouldn't be surprised if they were however.
Ever heard of Air America? Altho it was FBI selling crack, do you know that Monster from the crips got jailed for beating the agent up coz he thought the agent was a dealer? That's a real smart way to fight the war on drugs - peddle it on street corners to kids.
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Poppies are a huge cash crop in Afganhistan. The reason Afganhi people grow it is because they can make good money with it.
Welcome to the America - Welcome to the American Dream
yee - hah!!
uuum - whose gonna ship this stuff out for us??? Don't worry plenty Western Entrepeneurs can help. Revenue is king, profit is queen, and the Government is emperor, a bung here and a bung there. Emperor wasn't looking....or was he?. They make a lot more money selling it in the West too than the poor. oh so poor, farmers.
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CJay
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3653212 - 01/20/05 11:07 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ok...you viewed an autopsy list where the hijackers weren't listed. So, from that you automatically assume that because no arabs were listed on that list that they were not on the plane. Who knows what the parameters for that list was? It could have listed only "victims" and omitted the terrorists. How do you account for the fact that numerous relatives got calls from the planes? The people calling from the plane said, "Arab males have hijacked us." Do you think all of those family members are lying?
Strange how the blackboxes never got released, the buildings were shipped off to China without inspection, the autopsy lists don't show the people who were supposed to be on the plane, and very strange that a passport is found virtually unsinged in the rubble of a #hot enough to melt steel' blaze.
Oh and phonecalls are pretty easy to fake, especially when you hold a gun to someone's head and tell them what to say. (Not that that happened)
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3653216 - 01/20/05 11:08 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
it doesnt take a fucking genius to figure out that if you were a profesional descrediting something from a powerful organisation implying some VERY SERIOUS SHIT you might get your career and perhaps your life erased... these kinds of threats go on every day and play a large factor in the reasons CNN or anyone else doesn't write an article giving you some 'evidence' you seem to desperatly need
seen
--- I will be back to read past page 9 soon...gotta go now
peace
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SWEDEN
Miracle of Science
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3653376 - 01/20/05 11:59 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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whoa... there goes my post at the top...
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3653391 - 01/20/05 12:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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CJay writes:
Get real - puppet, troll, special fx. The most dubious election in history save G 'dubious' Bush's first.
So -- as I knew when I asked the question -- you have nothing to back up your claim that it is a puppet government. "I say it is, so it is!" doesn't cut it in this forum.
Bloody stupid to take over the country then...
You still don't get it. The UN-approved coalition didn't march into Afghanistan to take it over, they marched in to oust the Taliban and deny Al Qaeda a state-sponsored haven. They then -- as they said they would from the beginning -- turned it over to the Afghanis.
Now the farmers all know they can grow a crop that they can make the best profit from and export via the new entrepeneurial capitalist system the Americans have bequeathed them with.
LOL! They all knew that long before the UN-approved coalition crossed their borders, duh! Afghanis have been traders, merchants, and enterpreneurs for millennia. They are a fiercely independent people who don't look to government for handouts. They look after themselves. They didn't need any American to tell them growing poppies is a great way to provide for one's family.
What planet are you on? Think outside that tiny box they've given you.
So -- as I knew when I asked the question -- you have nothing to back up your claims of lies and hypocricy. "I say it is, so it is!" doesn't cut it in this forum.
Ever heard of ... (snip)... etc ad nauseaum
So -- as I knew when I asked the question -- you have nothing to back up your claim that governments are traditionally the greatest purveyors of drugs. "I say it is, so it is!" doesn't cut it in this forum. The sound bites you list show -- at the most -- that governments have in the past turned a blind eye to those who traffic in drugs, not that they are the greatest purveyors of drugs. They're not, and never have been. Did England's government tax tobacco, tea, and opium? Sure they did. They taxed everything. Did England's government run the opium trade? Or the tea trade? Nope. The China traders did.
read between the lines and use your brain - what is happening in Afghanistan right now?
There's no point trying to get a clear picture of what is between the lines until you have an accurate picture of the lines. What is happening in Afghanistan right now? Afghani poppy farmers are farming poppies -- as they have done for millennia. Why you feel the need to attribute this traditional means of making a living to some evil government plot escapes me. Try to wrap your brain around this inescapable fact -- Afghanistan has (with occasional lapses where the Southeast Asian countries of the "Golden Triangle" has held the lead for a few years) always been the world's single greatest producer of opium. The Taliban years -- which saw a decline in opium production -- were an aberration, not the norm. Read some freakin' history fa cryin' out loud!
It seems to me...
Yes, yes, we know it seems that way to you. You've made that abundantly clear. Excuse the rest of us for wanting a bit of actual foundation for our beliefs.
I'm sure the government itself does not own any labs or suchlike, certainly not the front end of government.
So -- as I knew when I asked the question -- you have nothing to back up your claim that governments are profiting from the prohibition of certain mind-altering substance. "I say it is, so it is!" doesn't cut it in this forum.
However the sheer ubiquity of these most taboo of substances and past history leads me to believe...
So the fact that drugs are readily available leads you to believe not that they are an enormously profitable business for people to engage themselves in -- thus assuring plenty of suppliers -- but that governments are somehow feeding them secretly into the economy? Ever heard of "Occam's Razor"?
...leads me to believe that some of these elite are making a lot of money for looking the other way and giving the odd helping hand.
Of course. Anyone who thinks no government official in Columbia or Burma or Thailand has ever taken a bribe to look the other way when a drug shipment is passing through his jurisdiction is naive indeed. I have no doubt there are also English and American Customs and Excise inspectors who are on the payroll of drug traffickers. But to claim that the heads of state of the UK, the US, or other free Western nations are deliberately engaing in drug trafficking is completely unsupported bullshit. Your paranoid speculations to the contrary are not convincing data on which to decide they are. Besides it gives the front end of the government a real good reason for us to need them - they'd be lost and unecessary if it wasn't for this evil trade (amongst other similar issues)from which they must protect us.
LOL! You think the sheeple suddenly decided a century ago that they needed a government inorder to be protected from drugs? That if drugs were to be legalized tomorrow governments would find themselves with nothing to do? Dude, sometimes you crack me up! There has never been a shortage of government justification for its existence. These days, people have convinced themselves they need the government for dozens of things no one a century ago would ever have dreamed of laying off on government. The prohibition of drugs is a tiny, tiny side issue -- barely even a blip on the radar screen.
I doubt any proceeds go into tax revenues, more likely invisible money for MI5/6, and the lining of many a toff's pocket.
All right then, please detail for us the exact process by which money is extracted from a drug trafficker. If not through taxes, then how? Then detail for us the exact process by which that money makes its way into the bank accounts used to fund MI5/6 operations.
Actually it does....you think all these endless covert operations, payoffs, invisible wars and secret campaigns & experiments come for free?
Of course they're not free. They're paid for with money seized by force from US taxpayers.
t's not enough for the megolamaniac, it's not enough for the rich.
So you speculate. Besides, your claim wasn't that there are greedy people in the US, your claim was that the US is being "milked dry". It's not. Not even close.
Want a bet? Sure it doesn't have US citizens down there growing it, but the USA has it's puppet in control of its new 'colonial' territory.
Again with the completely unfounded speculation. "It is so because I say it's so!" is not an argument worthy of notice.
Crops are soaring to previously unknown heights, and the masters oversee from afar the glorious move to capitalism, it's beautiful.
From afar. Uh huh.
Face it -- you've spent hours of both our time indulging in completely imaginary speculations. No evidence, not even any kind of logical rationale -- just "I say it is this way, therefore it is this way." What kind of freakin' "masters" are required for an Afghani to continue doing what he and the majority of his ancestors have done since time immemorial? People are capable of recognizing reality on their own you know. Poppy farmers don't need anyone to force them to grow poppies -- all they need is people willing to buy the sap they harvest. This isn't some grand and complex and mysterious government conspiracy, it's basic economics. Even more simple than basic economics, it's just common sense. Hell, if I were an Afghani goatherd livng up in the mountainous boonies with a wife and six kids I'd be harvesting poppies too. And I wouldn't need any "master" to tell me I should.
pinky
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3653409 - 01/20/05 12:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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More thoughts on autopsy report:
The AA list only had 56 and the pathology list obtained has 58......neither list has any arab names
By the way - the AA list aired by CNN is of EVERYONE who boarded the plane, including all crew. It is not a list of Americans/Non-terrorists. It is THE boarding list.
Yet CNN states there were 64 people aboard....since the Pentagon has already released the terrorists identities there are no secrets to keep. Why do they not appear? And why would there be 8 when the FBI says there were 6?
How did they get on board, if they didn't have tickets? Did they storm on with guns blazing before takeoff? Why wasn't this noted and the alarm raised? If it happened before takeoff where did they hide unnoticed? Why is there no explanation for any of this? If they were noitced (6-8 extra passengers in the cabin), why oh why didn't someone get on their cellular (since they were able to just before impact), or the pilot radio in mayday, or the stewardess?
We are led to believe by our authorities that on all the flights that hit US installations that day the passengers boarded as normal, the terrorists went on with regular tickets and passports, nothing was amiss. Things only went awry deep into the flight when the knives went out. This doesn't tally up.
Surely one would include total transparency in these type of documents if one wanted to show people the real story was as one told them. Why hide the terrorists names? Names already released?
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SWEDEN
Miracle of Science
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3653416 - 01/20/05 12:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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perhaps it was a technical error?
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3653420 - 01/20/05 12:15 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
These news corporations have a history and a reputation of providing accurate information. I would trust a major news organization that is held to an accountable standard(notice how CBS got slammed for the "Memogate" fiasco) more than some site called "www.stopthewar.com" or "www.BushknewbutIhavenoevidencetoproveitIjustknowit.com".
Notice how the reporter and chief exec lost their jobs over the BBC story that the 45 minute claim was bull.
Notice how when it got proven that the story was correct, the man who did lie, Tony Blair didn't loose anything.
It was an attempt to rein in real news.....people and organisations get scared to tackle scary stories when the government sees yto it careers and lives are ruined over their exposure.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3653430 - 01/20/05 12:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Has anybody who insinuated complicity or questioned the government's role in 9-11 disappeared? If they did it would be ALL over the news and all kinds of wacky conspiracy theories and accusations would be flying around.
see my post above RE: BBC....
Not only that but think: the government sees your angle there, they have to be damn careful, killing people is pretty risky. Discreditting them etc is much better. Or whatever can be got away with....Who's gonna believe some conspiracy nut anyway when everyone trusts the government and wants the revenue?
And shouting them down, or having their propaganda machine do it for them, as they did to every 'conscientious objector' who could get on the pages of a newspaper.
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CJay
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3653464 - 01/20/05 12:29 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
When somebody has an agenda they are biased. When people are biased they make shit up or exaggerate things. Why the hell would I trust stories from an extreme Left-Wing source who absolutely hates everything America stands for and what it does? They will do anything to discredit America...including espousing wacky theories. Now...if one of these Left-Wing sources actually comes up with a reasonable hypothesis which is indisputable and supported by evidence then I will listen. I have yet to see any 9/11 conspiracy theory stories that hold up to examination.
If you replaced left-wing with right-wing....well you have the US government. When they come up with an indisputable story...
Mad thing is that I personally would love to believe them and trust in these guys and have them as the 'good guys' who work for us...however my mind slips the other way no matter what.
Their character reference is terrible - they are known liars, known election riggers and known hypocrites. How can they be a credible source for anything?
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J4S0N
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3653496 - 01/20/05 12:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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The president has admitted that he continued to read a story to schoolchildren in a Florida school for 30 minutes after being informed that two planes had struck New York and that the nation was under attack. He has never explained this puzzling behavior, nor how he saw the first plane hit. It was never televised, only recorded by a French crew filming firemen in New York. In that film, the plane in question does not appear to be a passenger airliner.
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3653506 - 01/20/05 12:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Planes that lose contact with control towers are usually intercepted by fighter jets inside of ten minutes, as the incident with the golfer's plane a few months earlier so clearly demonstrated. Yet on 9/11, the jetliners that struck New York were allowed to proceed unmolested for more than a half-hour, and the plane that supposedly crashed in Washington was not intercepted for more than an hour and forty minutes after it was widely known that four planes had been hijacked.
FBI Director Robert Mueller insisted officials had no idea this kind of attack could happen when in fact the FBI had been investigating the possibility of EXACTLY this kind of attack for almost TEN YEARS. Numerous previous attempts at using planes as weapons, intimate knowledge of terror plans called Project Bojinka, and knowledge of suspicious characters attending flight schools who were being monitored by the FBI make his utterance a clear lie on its face.
In the weeks before 9/11, the U.S. received warnings from all over the world that an event just like this was about to happen, but FBI investigations into suspected terrorists were suppressed and those warnings were deliberately disregarded.
The names of the alleged hijackers, all Muslims, were released to the public only hours after the attacks, despite Mueller saying we had no knowledge this would happen. This is an impossible twist of logic. If he didn't know of a plan to strike buildings with planes, how would he know the names of the hijackers? Various artifacts were discovered in strategic places to try to confirm the government's story, but these have all been dismissed as suspicious planting of evidence. Since that time several names on that list have turned up alive and well, living in Arab countries. Yet no attempt has ever been made to update the list. And why were none of these names on the airlines' passenger lists?
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3653633 - 01/20/05 01:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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The president has admitted that he continued to read a story to schoolchildren in a Florida school for 30 minutes after being informed that two planes had struck New York
Page 38 of the 9/11 report:
The President remained in the classrom for another 5-7 minutes after being told of the second airliner hitting the WTC tower.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3653643 - 01/20/05 01:23 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not only that but think: the government sees your angle there, they have to be damn careful, killing people is pretty risky. Discreditting them etc is much better.
They discredit themselves by putting out bullshit hypotheses that don't make any sense.
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RandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3653656 - 01/20/05 01:26 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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The AA list only had 56 and the pathology list obtained has 58......neither list has any arab names
By the way - the AA list aired by CNN is of EVERYONE who boarded the plane, including all crew. It is not a list of Americans/Non-terrorists. It is THE boarding list.
Show me proof that this list is an official boarding list and that your assertion is correct.
So far, only the cell phone use above 8,000 feet has made me wonder about anything yet.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: J4S0N]
#3653683 - 01/20/05 01:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Planes that lose contact with control towers are usually intercepted by fighter jets inside of ten minutes, as the incident with the golfer's plane a few months earlier so clearly demonstrated. Yet on 9/11, the jetliners that struck New York were allowed to proceed unmolested for more than a half-hour, and the plane that supposedly crashed in Washington was not intercepted for more than an hour and forty minutes after it was widely known that four planes had been hijacked.
You are making assertions that it is standard for fighter planes to be on constant alert and 10 minute readiness. Show me proof. You also assert that the planes were "allowed" to proceed unmolested. Show me proof.
In the weeks before 9/11, the U.S. received warnings from all over the world that an event just like this was about to happen, but FBI investigations into suspected terrorists were suppressed and those warnings were deliberately disregarded.
Show me proof.
The names of the alleged hijackers, all Muslims, were released to the public only hours after the attacks, despite Mueller saying we had no knowledge this would happen. This is an impossible twist of logic. If he didn't know of a plan to strike buildings with planes, how would he know the names of the hijackers?
We live in a high-tech age of fast information retrieval. You could go and get information on my credit, wealth, and driver's license stuff within a few minutes probably.
Various artifacts were discovered in strategic places to try to confirm the government's story, but these have all been dismissed as suspicious planting of evidence.
Show me proof.
Since that time several names on that list have turned up alive and well, living in Arab countries. Yet no attempt has ever been made to update the list. And why were none of these names on the airlines' passenger lists?
I'm not surprised if some of the hijackers had stolen identities.
However, the "passenger list" is a good point. If the hijackers were not listed on the passenger list of everyone that got onto the plane, that would spark my concern and interest.
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faslimy
Dead Man
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3653855 - 01/20/05 02:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
Show me proof.
i don't see why anyone should bother anymore
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SWEDEN
Miracle of Science
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3653943 - 01/20/05 02:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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you're not worried about the fake Osama? I guess that post kind of got swallowed up by you quintuplet posters :P
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: faslimy]
#3654159 - 01/20/05 03:23 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Show me proof.
i don't see why anyone should bother anymore
You are free to believe in fanciful conspiracy theories with minimal evidence.....I will not do the same.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: SWEDEN]
#3654167 - 01/20/05 03:25 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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you're not worried about the fake Osama? I guess that post kind of got swallowed up by you quintuplet posters :P
That video always did look a little weird to me. It quite possibly could be faked. I wouldn't put that past the government. I never said that the U.S. federal government was incapable of propaganda.
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Phred
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: SWEDEN]
#3654611 - 01/20/05 04:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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If that was a fake Osama, who was the guy in his latest videotape? The first one seen in like two years or whatever? That guy took credit for the 9/11 attacks.
As for the appearance of the odd one out, it is possible it was an Osama double, but the voice was determined by the same experts who verified the many audiotapes released while Osama was being camera shy to be the same. Were the experts wrong? Possibly.
But as others have pointed out, the facial bloating apparent in that videotape is not uncommon at all in people with severe kidney disfunction, or even for people taking prednisone (as I am only too well aware). It is common knowledge bin Laden required regular dialysis to stay alive. That's one reason so many were convinced he'd kicked the bucket years back -- kind of hard to get regular kidney dialysis in a cave on the Afghan-Pakistan border after all.
pinky
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SWEDEN
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3655088 - 01/20/05 06:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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but he can't morph his facial structure (move eyes closer together, shorten nose)
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3655125 - 01/20/05 06:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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you have nothing to back up your claim that it is a puppet government. "I say it is, so it is!" doesn't cut it in this forum
Look he's an old boy from a good English public school. He's on the payroll and out for the loot, and there was never any question it would not be he that became president and paved the way for this 'kaos' to take over the country and the heroin gangs to cheer.
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You still don't get it. The UN-approved coalition didn't march into Afghanistan to take it over, they marched in to oust the Taliban and deny Al Qaeda a state-sponsored haven. They then -- as they said they would from the beginning -- turned it over to the Afghanis.
And what a great job they have done - oh yes oh yes. Just look, Afganistan's a nice safe place, Al Qaeda are gone and terrorism has declined. Well done guys. Almost as good as the position Europe put Africa in when they gave it to the natives, only to enslave them economically.
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They all knew that long before the UN-approved coalition crossed their borders, duh! Afghanis have been traders, merchants, and enterpreneurs for millennia. They are a fiercely independent people who don't look to government for handouts. They look after themselves. They didn't need any American to tell them growing poppies is a great way to provide for one's family.
If they are so fierce and brave and were already such great capitalists, at the level of which you speak - why the Hell wasn't it like this before? The Taleban stopped them with fear? The poppy market was poor? The export infrastructure was not sufficient? Sure the Taleban may have stopped much, and they may be good merchants...however they did not have the opportunity or the easy networking with the west.
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Did England's government run the opium trade? Or the tea trade? Nope. The China traders did.
Not within the British Empire, the British Government chartered the British East India company to do it for them. This company even held government office in India, it was embedded in the British government, it governed. This company was also sole controller of the aquisition, transport and marketing of the substances you list.
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The Taliban years -- which saw a decline in opium production -- were an aberration, not the norm
This may be so, but with the new networking and extra distribution capabilities afforded by the US invasion opium production hit an ALL TIME HIGH within just one crop of the occupation.
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Yes, yes, we know it seems that way to you
This is one interpretation I have based on the facts I have seen, or more often the omissions and the dubious. I don't actually know what I really believe to be honest - this is a strong contender though. I feel it's always important to consider all the angles and not to hold to one firm reality. Do not believe entirely in anything, do not dis-believe entirely in anything....consider and equate everything. My own gut feelings included.
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you have nothing to back up your claim that governments are profiting from the prohibition
Only their history, one small segment is provided above, their proven lying, deceptive manner, as evidenced from their treatment of the WMD affair (unless it was the most awful incompetence imaginable - if so why has no one been held accountable), and the fact they have done nothing to stop it or encourage other possibilities.
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So the fact that drugs are readily available leads you to believe not that they are an enormously profitable business for people to engage themselves in -- thus assuring plenty of suppliers -- but that governments are somehow feeding them secretly into the economy? Ever heard of "Occam's Razor"?
No not solely this. See above, this does add just one straw to the heap of possibilities. Amazing how after all these years of the war on drugs drug availability and use is at an all time high and growing all the time. Either they are the most foolish warriors of all time or there is a hidden agenda. As with all these things, the government is either implicit, or just incompetent. Either way they do not deserve to hold office. Oh and I have heard of Occums razor, and it can be pretty self limiting, but a nice reality in itself. I feel one should consider all possibilities in life however, including the one gained by this method. Multiple reality tunnels are quite funky.....I do believe the world is oft not so simple as the simplist model, that is something we are always learning as a species. Look at what has happened to our picture of the atom over the last 2000 years.
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To claim that the heads of state of the UK, the US, or other free Western nations are deliberately engaing in drug trafficking is completely unsupported bullshit.
I never claimed that. I feel that at best these people and their organisations are either subconsciosly creating enemies and situations and trades that foritify their identity by being their seeming opposite; or they are actually at least in the know on theses schemes, at worst (now this is paranoid) masterminding them.
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You think the sheeple suddenly decided a century ago that they needed a government inorder to be protected from drugs? That if drugs were to be legalized tomorrow governments would find themselves with nothing to do? Dude, sometimes you crack me up!
No I don't, but it is an important piece of armoury. You see it is not the small blip you call it, the war on drugs is a front gun that gets wheeled out at every opportunity. None are bigger save the cold war, the war on crime, and now the war on terror. The drugs issue is part of a composite of features that make up the identity of the government, the nation and the culture. It is a reasonably important one at least. Governments of course do do many other things, but remove their great obstacles and they are marginalised significantly. All right then, please detail for us the exact process by which money is extracted from a drug trafficker. If not through taxes, then how? Then detail for us the exact process by which that money makes its way into the bank accounts used to fund MI5/6 operations. This I cannot tell you, I don't have that kind of information. You don't have to believe me. I do however guess that cartels of various sorts actually handle things with a 'connection' who collects, in whatever form that takes. I'm sure only the highest cartel member(s) know how or who or even if. I don't know you are right. There is always plenty of money available for looking the other way at the right time, and maybe it's just that; or not at all maybe they've just ballsed it right up.
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Of course they're not free. They're paid for with money seized by force from US taxpayers.
It is likely not enough, though I have never seen the true US Admin budget. I can only speculate based on the huge and wide reach of these operations and organisations....and that's only the stuff I know! I mean there's never enough for schools and hospitals, always plenty for guns....and absolute sky's the limit for the secret side.
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your claim was that the US is being "milked dry"
what are you on about here? I've got no idea - are you mixing your replies up?
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"It is so because I say it's so!"
Neither is spoonfed shit
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This isn't some grand and complex and mysterious government conspiracy, it's basic economics. Even more simple than basic economics, it's just common sense
I know - this is what I am trying to tell you.
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Hell, if I were an Afghani goatherd livng up in the mountainous boonies with a wife and six kids I'd be harvesting poppies too. And I wouldn't need any "master" to tell me I should.
Or shouldn't? Which makes it strange the pattern of success for poppy farmers. Look dude, I don't know what I think or believe, and that is why I consider the possibilities. There are many gaps, omissions, lies, untrustworthy actions and coincidences that seem too numerous to make me believe every word I am fed by government. If you have been following my words, and the actions as well as words of politicians you will see good ground for this thinking. Their whole behaviour pattern displays these facets. Maybe you should try to form a few questions of your own. Oh - have you heard of the Reichstag fire of 1933 by the way? That is the closest parallel in recent history that I find to these events on 9/11. In the same way....no one knows what really happened, the story is fishy and the doubts rise high. One thing that is for sure is that, like the Nazis did from the Reichstag, the US government used this opportunity to aggressively advance it's agenda. In this case curbing freedoms, overring the constitution with new laws, using false evidence to invade Iraq, making connections where there are none and forcing the world to bow. Maybe you should give your Occam's razor tip to Bush and his team. What great slipery, snidey, "I say it so, so it makes it true!" opportunists; magnificent aren't they? peace out
Edited by CJay (01/20/05 06:53 PM)
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Posts: 931
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3655172 - 01/20/05 06:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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However, the "passenger list" is a good point. If the hijackers were not listed on the passenger list of everyone that got onto the plane, that would spark my concern and interest.
This is what i am trying to say....why would AA's "passenger list" submission to CNN, CNN itself or the autopsy report not include them? There is no reason not to and to do so would show transparency. If their passports were found in the rubble...they must have boarded as proper passengers. It just doesn't make good sense. I know if I was the government I would want to make it as clear as possible, and since the names were released virtually immediately by the FBI - why withold them from these lists?
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Posts: 931
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3655244 - 01/20/05 06:56 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
It is common knowledge bin Laden required regular dialysis to stay alive. That's one reason so many were convinced he'd kicked the bucket years back -- kind of hard to get regular kidney dialysis in a cave on the Afghan-Pakistan border after all.
Kinda hard to run around avoiding the greatest nation on Earth when it puts all of its security efforts into finding you too eh?
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3655801 - 01/20/05 08:43 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Cjay writes:
Look he's an old boy from a good English public school.
And this proves what? There are dozens of leaders of Third World countries who were educated abroad.
He's on the payroll and out for the loot, and there was never any question it would not be he that became president and paved the way for this 'kaos' to take over the country and the heroin gangs to cheer.
Here we go again with your unfounded assertions. He's on whose payroll? Source, please. And no, your fevered imaginings don't count as a source. Before he was elected, Kharzai was chosen by the Loya Jirga to run the transitional government. No members of any UN coalition members sit on the Loya Jirga. None get a vote in their deliberations. Why is it such a surprise to you that the Loya Jirga might choose someone capable of reading and speaking English, someone capable of conducting himself without embarassment in diplomatic circles? Is it because you think they're too much the savages to consider such issues when choosing such an important interim post?
As for his not forcibly preventing the poppy farmers from returning to their traditional means of making a living, are you suggesting he should have? What else are the farmers supposed to do? It's not as if Kharzai can offer them jobs in Afghanistan's fast-growing electronics assembly industry, for example. Don't you think he has enough on his plate without worrying about how many junkies there are in Russia and Amsterdam? Enforcing the drug laws in the EU and the US is not his problem.
And yet again I can't help but note the absurdity of condemning one government for allowing people to harvest natural substances while simultaneously condemning other governments for prohibiting people from harvesting natural substances. Talk about cognitive dissonance.
And what a great job they have done - oh yes oh yes.
On this we agree. They have indeed done a great job. The terrorist training camps are no more, women can leave the house without a male relative accompanying them and the Afghanis just elected their first government ever. This is one of the very few UN sanctioned interventions in its sad history that actually had good results.
If they are so fierce and brave and were already such great capitalists, at the level of which you speak - why the Hell wasn't it like this before? The Taleban stopped them with fear?
You got it. The Taliban were a ruthless bunch.
...however they did not have the opportunity or the easy networking with the west.
I repeat -- read some history. The Afghanis have never had difficulty getting their product out of Afghanistan and into the hands of those who wish to purchase it.
Not within the British Empire, the British Government chartered the British East India company to do it for them. This company even held government office in India, it was embedded in the British government, it governed. This company was also sole controller of the aquisition, transport and marketing of the substances you list.
The fact that the English government restricted the number of companies who could operate in certain areas doesn't mean they profited directly from the opium trade. They made their money from taxing the companies who dealt in opium. Or in tea or tobacco or silk or spices or anything else for that matter. The English government didn't give two shits what they were taxing. Opium, salt, cotton from the southern United States -- same same.
This may be so, but with the new networking and extra distribution capabilities afforded by the US invasion opium production hit an ALL TIME HIGH within just one crop of the occupation.
Gee, I wonder why that might be? Could it have anything to do with weather patterns (which account for bumper crops of grapes in France and Italy, for example)? Or maybe the fact that land which was getting kind of exhausted from crop monoculture had a chance to recover during the Taliban years? Ever heard of crop rotation? When a farmer uses the term "lie fallow", do you know what he refers to? Or maybe it's just due to the fact that every year more stuff is produced. All kinds of stuff. There were more cel phones produced last year than any year in history, too -- because the demand is there. More wheat than any year in history, too. An ALL TIME HIGH for opium, wheat, and cel phones. Probably an all time high for dozens of other products.
I feel it's always important to consider all the angles and not to hold to one firm reality. Do not believe entirely in anything, do not dis-believe entirely in anything....consider and equate everything. My own gut feelings included.
There comes a point in which being "open-minded" in the manner you describe equates to all intents and purposes to being empty-headed. Hey, it's possible OJ Simpson really didn't kill his ex-wife and her lover. It's also possible that my eyes move to follow the text on the screen because they're being guided by exceedingly tiny invisible monkeys manipulating even tinier invisible cables and pulleys. There are endless possibilities out there, but very few probabilities. Life's too short to dwell on something that may be technically speaking possible, but the preponderance of available evidence points in the opposite direction. Show me covincing evidence and I'll change my mind. Hell, it wouldn't be the first time. I used to be a shop steward for one of Canada's most militant and commie-oriented unions. No lie. But I want evidence. I want data. Otherwise it's all just frat house bull sessions, and I'm too old for that. Been there, done that, moved on.
Only their history, one small segment is provided above, their proven lying, deceptive manner, as evidenced from their treatment of the WMD affair (unless it was the most awful incompetence imaginable - if so why has no one been held accountable), and the fact they have done nothing to stop it or encourage other possibilities.
Ah. Yet another one who believes the intelligence agencies were "lying" about Hussein not having destroyed all the stocks of bio and chem weapons he was known to have and that he admitted to having when caught with the incontrovertible evidence. Did he destroy them all? Or are some still sitting waiting to be discovered in some obscure bunker somewhere within Iraq's borders? Did they get moved to Syria before the invasion? There's more evidence of that than there is of their destruction. Is it possible he actually destroyed them all? Yep. But any government who believed Hussein's word after his track record on the matter would indeed be an incompetent one.
...and the fact they have done nothing to stop it or encourage other possibilities.
Sorry. I don't understand to what you are referring here. Can you clarify?
Amazing how after all these years of the war on drugs drug availability and use is at an all time high and growing all the time. Either they are the most foolish warriors of all time or there is a hidden agenda.
LOL! It's not "amazing" at all. It's inevitable. The War on Drugs is futile. America's own experiment with alcohol prohibition showed that as plainly as is possible. And actually, for certain drugs the use and availability is not at an "all time high". LSD, for example.
I do believe the world is oft not so simple as the simplist model, that is something we are always learning as a species. Look at what has happened to our picture of the atom over the last 2000 years.
You confuse arcane and esoteric knowledge of structures invisible to the unaided senses with the tens of thousands of years humans have observed other humans. There is nothing startling or bizarre or mysterious about the fact that Afghanis are smart enough to realize that growing poppies is a good way to support one's family. Nor is there anything startling about the fact that people want to buy opium. Anyone who has ever tried it (particularly heroin) will understand the appeal.
You see it is not the small blip you call it, the war on drugs is a front gun that gets wheeled out at every opportunity. None are bigger save the cold war, the war on crime, and now the war on terror.
Nonsense. To your list add taxes, health care, education, social security, job security -- to name a few. All figure more prominently in the minds of the average Westerner than the War on Drugs. The average citizen doesn't want junkies nodding out in herr neighborhood or crack dealers cruising up and down in front of his home hosing down the sidewalks with Mac-10s, true. They're not keen on pushers selling to their schoolkids either. But that's about the extent of their concern.
what are you on about here? I've got no idea - are you mixing your replies up?
I'm on about your statement in your post number 3647401 --
Quote:
The CIA needs limitless sources of invisible money and the government is desperate for resources since the USA is getting milked pretty dry.
Neither is spoonfed shit
I don't form my opinions from "spoonfed shit". I haven't owned a television set in almost eighteen years. I have never seen FOX News. I read no Western newspapers and almost no Dominican ones. I make a habit of tracking things back as close to the source as I can possibly get. You've been here long enough to have realized from my posts that I don't accept what some commentator says about a political debate -- I dig up the transcript and read it for myself. I don't believe what Barbara Boxer (a sleazebag US senator) says was in the resolution she voted on, I read the resolution itself. I don't believe what people say about Bush's speeches, I read the transcripts. I don't believe what some lazy goober who styles himself a "journalist" says about UN resolutions, I read the resolutions. I don't believe what apologists for Hussein say about 700,000 dead Iraqi babies due to the UN sanctions, I read the mortality reports from the people who actually produced them. I don't take Alex's word that England abolished slavery in the Eighteenth century, I read the date on the English Abolition of Slavery Act.
There's a lot of spoonfeeding of bullshit going on out there, and in this forum as well. I'm one who neither deals it out nor is sucked in by it.
Oh - have you heard of the Reichstag fire of 1933 by the way? That is the closest parallel in recent history that I find to these events on 9/11.
As a matter of fact I have heard of the Reichstag fire. There is no parallel, though. The Reichstag fire was engineered by the Nazis. 9/11 was engineered by fanatic Muslims.
One thing that is for sure is that, like the Nazis did from the Reichstag, the US government used this opportunity to aggressively advance it's agenda. In this case curbing freedoms...
Name one thing an American citizen cannot legally do today that he could do before 9/11.
... overring the constitution with new laws...
Newsflash. American politicians and judges have been running roughshod over the US Constituion for decades, arguably more than a century.
... using false evidence to invade Iraq...
What false evidence might that be? I suggest you read the text of UN resolution 1441. Then read the text of the US bill authorizing Bush to invade Iraq.
... making connections where there are none...
Name a couple. Please be specific.
... and forcing the world to bow.
The US has forced no one to "bow". The Taliban was given the opportunity to turn over bin Laden and his crew of Merry Pranksters. Failing that, the opportunity to stand aside while the UN-authorized coalition forces went after him. They chose not to accept either option. Now they're history.
Hussein was given numerous opportunities by the UN stretching back to late 1990 to correct his misbehavior. He, too, chose another path. Now he too is history.
Who else do you see as being forced to bow to the US? Please be specific. "The world" is a mighty big place.
pinky
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3655836 - 01/20/05 08:56 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Fevered Imaginings"
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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J4S0N
human
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: lonestar2004]
#3656435 - 01/20/05 10:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/Secret-Evil-of-911.wmv
Here is a 20min video which lays out of alot of the problems with the official story. Its about 11megs, worth downloading if your interested in this sort of thing.
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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CJay
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3668370 - 01/23/05 03:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I would say - well done go most of that post...a good read and interesting rhetoric though I am not sure how you can be so definite that the Reichstag fire WAS engineered by the Nazis.. Also, it is a shame that the only acceptable leader for a nation is one that fits a western mould. the USA is getting milked pretty dry. Not much oil left at home...
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What false evidence might that be?
uuum - WMD????? any PROOF?????? anything??? Oh and I didn't say they were necessarily 'lying' - i do consider incompetence...poor intelligence = incompetence. A bit like "I say so, so it is!"
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C:making connections where there are none... P:Name a couple. Please be specific.
Al Qaeda-Iraq
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Who else do you see as being forced to bow to the US?
Every developed nation wanted in on Iraq....the EU was just about to get in there via economics and Saddam was about to abandon the dollar for good. The USA could not let another upset their status quo of world leadership. There is one police man of the world.
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It's not "amazing" at all. It's inevitable. The War on Drugs is futile. America's own experiment with alcohol prohibition showed that as plainly as is possible. And actually, for certain drugs the use and availability is not at an "all time high". LSD, for example.
Yes I agree the war on drugs is futile...however I would far from agree with you on LSD.
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Newsflash. American politicians and judges have been running roughshod over the US Constituion for decades, arguably more than a century.
Some constitution...
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I can't help but note the absurdity of condemning one government for allowing people to harvest natural substances while simultaneously condemning other governments for prohibiting people from harvesting natural substances. Talk about cognitive dissonance.
You don't get it - I am not condemning anyone for producing anyone. I am observing that the governments that do condemn it seem to manufacture situations in which its production thrives.
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The fact that the English government restricted the number of companies who could operate in certain areas doesn't mean they profited directly from the opium trade. They made their money from taxing the companies who dealt in opium. Or in tea or tobacco or silk or spices or anything else for that matter. The English government didn't give two shits what they were taxing. Opium, salt, cotton from the southern United States -- same same.
The government didn't just restrict the number of companies that dealt and controlled these things. They chartered ONE company to control all of it and to govern many of their provinces. That is a fair degree of direct involvement to say the least - contracting out a job.
Edited by CJay (01/23/05 03:33 PM)
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3668711 - 01/23/05 04:20 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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As a matter of fact I have heard of the Reichstag fire. There is no parallel, though. The Reichstag fire was engineered by the Nazis. 9/11 was engineered by fanatic Muslims.
Can you show me some solid proof that the Nazis engineered the Reichstag fire?
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Phred
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3668771 - 01/23/05 04:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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CJay writes:
uuum - WMD????? any PROOF?????? anything???
See, there's the difference between your approach and my approach. You've seen nothing in The Guardian or on the BBC about the WMD finds so you presume there have been none found. I on the other hand didn't just read the commentaries, I read the actual reports. If you read Duelfer's report you'll see that not only did Hussein retain the programs for manufacturing chem and bio weaponry -- in direct contravention of the conditional ceasefire agreement that suspended hostilities in 1991 -- but there have also been thirteen to fifteen (depending which interview with Duelfer one looks at) sarin and mustard gas shells found. There was also the sarin shell which exploded as part of a roadside IED (improvised explosive device). There were a couple of threads on that incident here in this forum. Does anyone honestly believe that this handful is all that remained in Iraq at the time of invasion? Especially considering the fact that there are enormous ammo dumps all over the country (some cover as much area as Manhattan) which have yet to be checked out?
You cannot say that the fact that major stockpiles of chem and bio weaponry have yet to be found within Iraq's borders shows that the US and the UK were "falsifying" evidence. All it shows is that Hussein was smart enough to get the stuff well hidden or across the border to Syria. It's not as if he had no warning the invasion was coming, after all. And -- as has been pointed out in this forum hundreds of times -- every major intelligence agency in the entire world also believed Hussein had failed to dispose of everything he was known to have. Hussein's own generals were also convinced of this. If anyone was "falsifying evidence" here it's Hussein.
Al Qaeda-Iraq
There are numerous well-documented connections between al Qaeda and Hussein's regime, going back to long before Bush was elected. Read the 9/11 report rather than just accepting what some hairsprayed goof in a suit reads to you on the Telly. Such mainstream press organs as the Washington Post, Time, Newsweek, and even the freaking New York Times detailed some of these connections. This information isn't particularly well-publicized, but it isn't secret either. A thorough Google search will turn it up, though Lexis-Nexis makes it easier. Or just pick up a copy of Stephen Hayes's book "The Connection" and follow his trail.
Did Hussein have a hand in assisting al Qaeda plan the 9/11 attacks? At this point I am aware of no convincing evidence showing he did. I personally doubt he did, but I'll look at any new evidence unearthed showing otherwise. But it is an indisputable fact that his regime sheltered and aided and abetted terrorists of various organizations including al Qaeda.
Every developed nation wanted in on Iraq...
Too bad more didn't help in deposing Hussein, then.
...the EU was just about to get in there via economics and Saddam was about to abandon the dollar for good.
Exactly. The corrupt scum of Old Europe were deliberately violating the sanctions, taking bribes from Hussein's regime and making a mockery of the supposed "containment" that the sanctions were imposed for in the first place. Hussein was getting the replacement parts he needed for his Soviet and French weapons systems -- in direct violation of the UN resolutions.
Some constitution...
My oh my... such a sneering tone! No constitution means anything if it is ignored. UN sanctions work the same way.
I am observing that the governments that do condemn it seem to manufacture situations in which its production thrives.
What manufactured "situations" do you mean? Freedom? Yes, the poppy farmers in Afghanistan are free now to resume their traditional means of making a living.
Look, you seem to be suffering from a common Liberal misconception -- that the real world consists of being faced with a series of decisions between good and bad. It doesn't work like that. Sometimes the best choice available is between "bad" and "worse". And in this specific instance, even the characterization of the choice as one between bad and worse presumes you think growing poppies is bad. I personally don't see it as bad at all. It's certainly no worse than growing mushrooms or marijuana.
They chartered ONE company to control all of it and to govern many of their provinces.
And I repeat -- so freakin' what? It matters not if there were one or a dozen. Either way, the government's only benefit from the opium trade (remembering once again that at this time opium was not illegal) was that it was simpler from the point of view of paperwork to tax one company rather than a dozen. But at the same time the British East Indian Company was being taxed on their profits from tea and silk and spices and opium, so was the Hudson's Bay Company being taxed on their trade in tobacco and furs. The point is that the government didn't care what the companies dealt in. If the companies decided not to deal in opium but to instead put their efforts into... oh, I don't know... jade or ivory or snakeskin or something... the government would still get their slice. All same same.
To pretend that it was all some vast government conspiracy to hook the heathen Chinee on the Dragon Pipe to fill the Queen's coffers is just not rational. Those coffers were going to be filled no matter what.
You really should read some history, particularly of the founding of Hong Kong, and the thorny problem of the Chinese government's restrictions on silver and gold transactions which necessitated the use of opium as an intermediate step in the Japan/Hong Kong/China trade cycle.
pinky
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CJay
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3671429 - 01/24/05 06:07 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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You've seen nothing in The Guardian or on the BBC about the WMD finds so you presume there have been none found.
No pinky I've seen UN weapons inspectors trawl the country for 6 months, followed by a US invasion and 2 years of intense searching every stretch of the nation....I have seen no WMD uncovered. I personally feel that is ample time to come up with something. Oh I forgot they found enough sarin to kill about 3 camels.
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If anyone was "falsifying evidence" here it's Hussein.
How do you then explain the sprrilous 45 minute claim? Maybe it was just yet another case of poor intelligence eh? Stupidity in other words. Or was it deliberate and injected into the equation at a critical juncture in order to move the campaign forward?
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Read the 9/11 report rather than just accepting what some hairsprayed goof in a suit reads to you on the Telly.
Full of character assumptions aren't you. I have read the 9/11 report and for your information I do not own a TV....you've really got no idea who I am, or where I'm coming from have you?
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No constitution means anything if it is ignored
How true, how true. The US constitution is outmoded in any case, funny how it is clung to so dearly as a measure of vanity though.
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you seem to be suffering from a common Liberal misconception -- that the real world consists of being faced with a series of decisions between good and bad. It doesn't work like that. Sometimes the best choice available is between "bad" and "worse". And in this specific instance, even the characterization of the choice as one between bad and worse presumes you think growing poppies is bad. I personally don't see it as bad at all. It's certainly no worse than growing mushrooms or marijuana.
You still don't get me...I agree, growing poppies is not bad, I do not divide and put into a heirarchy of 'good to bad' the ways of the world. You don't understand me, I see the patterns of events and this is simply the way it is, this is the case with all things. So should it be. I have no personal problem with poppies, heroin or anything for that matter. It is not 'bad'. However on observance of the way this situation is evolving I do find myself questioning the outward stance of the governments that engineered it, and that control the nation. This questioning comes from a large amount of doubt in the integrity of these governments since their track record is one of deception & misconception. And I am not a 'liberal'
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To pretend that it was all some vast government conspiracy to hook the heathen Chinee on the Dragon Pipe to fill the Queen's coffers is just not rational. Those coffers were going to be filled no matter what. You really should read some history, particularly of the founding of Hong Kong
bwaahaha - you are funny. And I continually find it interesting that what appears to me as simple economics and the extention of Empire to you is 'vast government conspiracy'. Nice language Pinky, but you know it's just a sensible plan for them, I don't think conspiracy quite fits the bill. I mean the persuit of Empire is all it was. Check your Hong Kong pages again my man.
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P:As a matter of fact I have heard of the Reichstag fire. There is no parallel, though. The Reichstag fire was engineered by the Nazis. 9/11 was engineered by fanatic Muslims. C: Can you show me some solid proof that the Nazis engineered the Reichstag fire?
Oh and please get your proof out that the Nazis engineered the Reichstag fire. Or is it a case of "Pinky says so, so it is!" ps. Hey I've got an idea - we could take over the Muslims countries and supplant their leaders with leaders that actually fit our template, leaders that represent our needs, and don't represent the people's culture at all. Maybe we could even destroy their entire culture and turn them into neo-Americans.
Edited by CJay (01/24/05 07:06 AM)
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CJay
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3671475 - 01/24/05 06:37 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The corrupt scum of Old Europe were deliberately violating the sanctions, taking bribes from Hussein's regime and making a mockery of the supposed "containment" that the sanctions were imposed for in the first place
btw - Americans were implicated in these kind of activities too.
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Phred
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3671516 - 01/24/05 07:24 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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CJay writes:
No pinky I've seen UN weapons inspectors trawl the country for 6 months, followed by a US invasion and 2 years of intense searching every stretch of the nation....I have seen no WMD uncovered.
Which was my point exactly. You haven't researched the matter, you rely on what commentators tell you. You haven't "seen" the inspectors doing anything -- you have read reports in the media of what they did. I on the other hand have researched the matter more thoroughly than just skimming political columns in The Guardian and am aware that chem weapons have indeed been found. Not only have ready-to-go chem weapons (the binary sarin shells I referred to) been found, but Duelfer's report also states that Hussein -- rather than destroy the chem and bio weaponry programs as was required of him by the terms of the conditional ceasefire agreement -- retained those programs.
I personally feel that is ample time to come up with something.
And what makes your "personal feeling" on the matter worth a pinch of snuff? Have you ever set foot inside the borders of Iraq? Have you ever walked around an ammo dump the size of Manhattan? Excuse me if I don't take your "personal feeling" on the matter as proof that all the world's intelligence agencies were "deliberately falsifying" the status of Hussein's WMD programs.
Do you remember the photos from early in the war of the Iraqi jet fighters which had been deliberately buried in the sand? How many years do you think it would have taken to find them if the wind patterns had been slightly different? No one had any idea they were there until the sand blew away enough to reveal their tail fins poking through the dunes. Did you not hear a couple of years ago of the underground hangars containing intact German fighter planes from World War II that no one knew were there until a construction company digging the foundation for a new hotel underground parking lot broke through the roof of the hangars?
It's incredibly naive to believe that in a country the size of Iraq every possible hiding place for such material has been discovered and explored.
And -- of course -- Hussein had ample opportunity to ship pretty much whatever he pleased to neighboring countries. Syria is the most likely suspect in that scenario. Imagine the police announcing a year in advance their intention to bust some well-known crack dealers. When they finally get around to arresting the dealers and carting them off to jail, no crack is found in their apartment. The police don't search the apartments on either side. Would any reasonable person conclude there was never any crack in the first place and the police are liars?
I have read the 9/11 report and for your information I do not own a TV...
If you have read the 9/11 report, why do you claim the connections between al Qaeda and Iraq were "fabricated"? Perhaps you should re-read it.
The US constitution is outmoded in any case...
In what way is it outmoded? Be specific, please. Which section of the US Constitution has been rendered outmoded by which specific changes that have taken place since the late Eighteenth century?
However on observance of the way this situation is evolving I do find myself questioning the outward stance of the governments that engineered it, and that control the nation.
What are you trying to imply here? That the reason the UN-approved coalition crossed Afghanistan's borders was to enable Afghanistan to resume its position as the pre-eminent producer of poppy sap? If you believe it was wrong for the UN to authorize such an operation, just say so. Don't try to justify your opposition to it by implying the whole thing was a scam to produce more junkies.
And I am not a 'liberal'
One need not label one's self a Liberal in order to hold one or more Liberal misconceptions.
And I continually find it interesting that what appears to me as simple economics and the extention of Empire to you is 'vast government conspiracy'.
Clumsy dodge. You can do better than that. Look, your point through this entire thread has been that government is somehow up to their eyeballs in the drug trade and has been for centuries. That the liberation of Afghanistan was done so governments could "profit" from drugs, that the British East India Company was formed so government could "profit" from drugs. You have yet to show the mechanism (other than simple taxation over a century ago when opium was still legal) by which government profits from the drug trade, nor have you yet shown the mechanism by which they aid that trade.
As for the history of the founding of Hong Kong, if you are unaware why the China traders had no choice but to involve themselves in the opium trade due to the Chinese restriction on gold and silver transactions, it isn't me who needs to review Hong Kong history.
Oh and please get your proof out that the Nazis engineered the Reichstag fire.
Re-read William L. Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, section "Triumph and Consolidation", Chapter 7 -- "The Nazification of Germany 1933-34", section "The Reichstag Fire".
I quote Shirer:
Quote:
The whole truth about the Reichstag Fire will probably never be known. Nearly all those who knew it are now dead (as of the book's publication in 1960 -- pinky), most of them slain by Hitler in the months that followed. Even at Nuremberg the mystery could not be entirely unraveled, though there is enough evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that it was the Nazis who planned the arson and carried it out for their own political ends.
Shirer then spends the rest of the section reviewing that evidence. Re-read it then tell me who set the Reichstag fire.
But just out of curiosity, if you are implying there is insufficient evidence to satisfy you the Nazis engineered the Reichstag fire, on what evidence do you accept the speculation that the US government engineered the 9/11 attacks?
pinky
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deafpanda
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3671553 - 01/24/05 07:54 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you have read the 9/11 report, why do you claim the connections between al Qaeda and Iraq were "fabricated"? Perhaps you should re-read it.
I have not read the 9/11 report, but how do you explain Rumsfeld admitting that there was no good evidence of a link between al-qaeda and iraq?
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Phred
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: deafpanda]
#3671593 - 01/24/05 08:31 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Please provide a source quoting Rumsfeld saying that.
Rumsfeld has said he has seen no evidence that Iraq was involved in the planning and execution of the 9/11 attacks. But I have never come across a quote from him saying there were no links between Ba'athist Iraq and al Qaeda.
pinky
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deafpanda
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3671812 - 01/24/05 10:27 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I found this.
"When asked about any connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda, Rumsfeld said, 'To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two.'"
"The 9/11 commission report, issued in July, concluded there may have been meetings between Iraqi officials and Osama bin Laden or his aides in 1999 but there was 'no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship.'
'Nor did the commission find any evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States,' the commission report said.
In June, President Bush repeated his administration's claim that Iraq was in league with al Qaeda under Saddam Hussein's rule, saying that fugitive Islamic militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi ties Saddam to the terrorist network.
'Zarqawi's the best evidence of a connection to al Qaeda affiliates and al Qaeda,' Bush told reporters at the White House. 'He's the person who's still killing.'
But Rumsfeld Monday in his address to the CFR questioned whether al-Zarqawi is working with al Qaeda even as he seemed to have a similar agenda.
'In the case of al Qaeda, my impression is most of the senior people have actually sworn an oath to Osama bin Laden, and to my knowledge, even as of this late date, I don't believe Zarqawi, the principal leader of the network in Iraq, has sworn an oath, even though what they're doing -- I mean, they're just two peas in a pod in terms of what they're doing,' Rumsfeld said.
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Phred
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: deafpanda]
#3675918 - 01/25/05 01:10 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Link, please.
pinky
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deafpanda
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3676162 - 01/25/05 04:03 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Phred
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: deafpanda]
#3676284 - 01/25/05 05:36 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Dude, do you bother to read what you use to back up your claims? From your link, immediately following the part you excerpted --
Quote:
But a short time later, Rumsfeld released a statement: "A question I answered today at an appearance before the Council on Foreign Relations regarding ties between Al Qaeda and Iraq regrettably was misunderstood.
"I have acknowledged since September 2002 that there were ties between Al Qaeda and Iraq."
It then even goes on to provide a link with the full statement from Rumsfeld here. http://www.dod.gov/releases/2004/nr20041004-1352.html/
Do you want to click that link and read his statement or must I cut and paste it here?
pinky
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Phluck
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: faslimy]
#3676978 - 01/25/05 09:24 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
faslimy said:
Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
Show me proof.
i don't see why anyone should bother anymore
Wow, you've got a lot in common with Bush.
-------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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faslimy
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phluck]
#3678363 - 01/25/05 02:52 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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umm, sure
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CJay
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3682029 - 01/26/05 05:09 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
your point through this entire thread has been that government is somehow up to their eyeballs in the drug trade and has been for centuries. That the liberation of Afghanistan was done so governments could "profit" from drugs, that the British East India Company was formed so government could "profit" from drugs. You have yet to show the mechanism (other than simple taxation over a century ago when opium was still legal) by which government profits from the drug trade, nor have you yet shown the mechanism by which they aid that trade.
My point is not that simple. I do not believe Afganistan was liberated simply for the revitalisation of the poppy fields. I however do view it as a convenient by product. However governments have been up to their eyeballs in the drug trade for as long as there has been a global trade. It was public outcry after the invention of the hyperdermic needle and the coincidental distillation of morphine, the advent of the first junkies on the street, that forced government to review what they were allowing and profiting from. After a huge backlash and further realisation by government (and certain industries) that other substances did not fit their agenda, they banned the lot. So much propaganda has been built up on this matter, and so much public fervour and belief in the evils of any mindbending substance save alcohol - there has been no going back since. However little chinks in the armour like the Air America case go to show that governments never quite gave up their hold on the most lucrative of these substances, especially when they can be aimed at the right sections of society. And hey you know - In your manner of definition - Empire IS a 'vast government conspiracy' to run the world. The British had a pretty good go, now the perameters have changed, but the US isn't doing too bad in the modern way.
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If you believe it was wrong for the UN to authorize such an operation, just say so. Don't try to justify your opposition to it by implying the whole thing was a scam to produce more junkies.
I am not implying anything so simple, as I said above: a convenient side effect is 'profit where profit can be made' - after all this whole war on terror thing is going stupendously overbudget, the dollar is going to shit.....it's a tricky situation and money is needed from anywhere by the super-capitalists.
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Did you not hear a couple of years ago of the underground hangars containing intact German fighter planes from World War II that no one knew were there until a construction company digging the foundation for a new hotel underground parking lot broke through the roof of the hangars?
Yes, not even the Germans knew....
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Not only have ready-to-go chem weapons (the binary sarin shells I referred to) been found, but Duelfer's report also states that Hussein -- rather than destroy the chem and bio weaponry programs as was required of him by the terms of the conditional ceasefire agreement -- retained those programs.
Hussein was not capable of Mass Destruction in any way shape or form. If he had any capability it would have been launched at his enemies upon their attempted conquest of his lands.....what was launched? A rag tag effort with no WMD to back it up. A few sarin shells, and traces of programmes ushered in and encouraged by his once allies, now conquestors, does not amount to a threatening WMD capability.
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If you have read the 9/11 report, why do you claim the connections between al Qaeda and Iraq were "fabricated"? Perhaps you should re-read it.
The possibility of an extremely small number of meetings having been held between Hussein's government and Al Qaeda is no more a connection (infact less) than the US government's hosting the Taleban over to the Whitehouse for dinner. It proves nothing, it is circumstantial.
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C:Oh and please get your proof out that the Nazis engineered the Reichstag fire. P:Re-read William L. Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, section "Triumph and Consolidation", Chapter 7 -- "The Nazification of Germany 1933-34", section "The Reichstag Fire".
Nice try Pinky, but you know there are enough writers that other people on this forum use to back up their assertions - and you throw them out. This is not any kind of proof in the manner you deem acceptable, this is a journalist's review of events and his own conclusion....one of many differing and equally valid attempts to undertand these events. You love to critique anyone else paying attention to journalists rather than official government reports etc, yet when it suits you you hold a journalist up as ultimate proof! Hey - this might interest you. An equally valid and different explanation by a journalist: Sefton Delmer. This man was actually deeply trusted by the British, enough that they chose him to lead the 'Black Propaganda' operations against Hitler. A man who could gladly say 'the Nazis did it'. Not only that, but a man who was on the scene itself in the aftermath of the fire. Here are a few of his thoughts: G?ring picked a piece of rag off the floor near one of the charred curtains. "Here, you can see for yourself Herr Chancellor how they started the fire," he said. "They hung cloths soaked in petrol over the furniture and set it alight." Notice the 'they'. 'They' did this, 'they' did that. For G?ring there was no question that more than one incendiary must have been at work. It had to be more than one to fit in with his conviction that the fire was the result of a Communist conspiracy. There had to be a gang of incendiaries. But as I looked at the rags and the other evidence, I could see nothing that one man could not have done on his own... Hardly had Papen and Hitler said goodbye to each other on the steps of Hindenburg's presidential palace, when lorries loaded with Hitler Stormtroops, hastily sworn in as "auxiliary police"", began to carry out the decree. All day long I watched them at their work, swooping on the pubs and the flats where the Communist rank and file had their hideouts, and carrying away whomever they found there. Sometimes to gaols, but most often they took their captives to Stormtroop cellars of the kind in which Goebbels had watched his boys teaching atheists to pray. But while the story of the Communist plot to set the Reichstag on fire proved an enormous success in Germany and gave Hitler all the political leverage he hoped for, it was beginning prove a liability abroad. No-one outside Germany would believe that the fire was not a pup up job. The shirtless man who had been captured in the Reichstag while he was trying to spread the flames still further ? a young Dutch hitch-hiker named Marinus van der Lubbe ? was assumed by the world at large to be a tool of the Nazis. The insistence of G?ring and Hitler that not just van der Lubbe alone, but a whole group of people must have been at work ? a theory which they had to maintain and support in order to justify their story of a Communist plot ? had just the opposite effect abroad. For people accepted it as a fact that more than one pair of hands was needed to produce such a big fire, and they decided the missing hands must be Nazi hands. What was the truth about the Reichstag fire? Who really was responsible for it? The Nazis accused the Communists and the Communists the Nazis. In the world at large the Communist allegation has been accepted without question. Even by expert historians. But I have always believed that neither the Nazis nor the Communists laid and lit this fire, but that both exploited it for their political warfare. the Nazis did so for the immediate objective of suppressing all opposition to themselves in Germany, the Communists for the long term objective of rallying the world against the Nazis. My own view I put forward in an article on Hitler and the Reichstag fir in 1939, when I said, "I rather suspect there was really just one incendiary who lit that fire ? the lunatic van der Lubbe." Today I no longer suspect, I am sure of it. On that night of February 27th, 1933 the shirtless youth who had been arrested in the burning Reichstag was immediately wrapped in rugs and taken off to the headquarters of the political police on the Alexanderplatz. There he was led straight to the office of the duty commissar, the then thirty-one year old Helmut Heisig. Marinus van der Lubbe underwent his first interrogation in Heisig's room. In this first and all subsequent interrogations, van der Lubbe declared that he and he alone had set the Reichstag on fire. He had done so entirely on his own initiative and without any outside help or inspiration. His object in doing so, he said, was to incite the workers of Germany to 'do something about Hitler' before it was too late. Van der Lubbe however, was no Moscow Communist. He belonged to a Dutch Marxist splinter group called the 'International Communists' or the 'Raden Communists', which was fiercely opposed to Moscow. Again and again Heisig and his superior Dr. Zirpins questioned van der Lubbe. They checked all his statements as to where he had been and how he had spent the days before the fire, how he had come to be in Germany, how he had bought the fire lighters which he used in the Reichstag, and at what shops. Van der Lubbe answered all their questions frankly and truthfully. He drew them a map, showing the route he followed as he climbed into the Reichstag, breaking a window as he did so ? he had been observed in the act ? and then rushed from room to room laying a trail of fire until he ran out of firelighters and used his own shirt and coat. It all tallied. Even when Heisig and Zirpins checked him over the route with a stopwatch to see whether he could have done in the time available all that he claimed to have done. Heisig and Zirpins came to the firm conclusion that van der Lubbe was telling the truth and that he, and he alone, had lit the fire. And Heisig, who is alive as I write, still sticks to this opinion. But this view of the detectives did not suit G?ring's book or Hitler's The fire had to be the work of a gang, a Communist gang. If it was not, the whole moral foundation of their new Police State was undermined. When Heisig, who had been sent to Leiden in Holland to investigate van der Lubbe's Dutch background, gave an interview to Dutch newspapers saying that van der Lubbe was the sole culprit, G?ring flew into a passionate rage and had Heisig immediately recalled. The public prosecutor working on the case, one Dr. Vogt, aware that his career depended on his taking the same view of the facts as Hitler and G?ring, refused to accept his inefficient CID officials' report. He called in fire experts like Wagner, one of Berlin's fire chiefs, who declared, "...the fire in the debating chamber could never have assumed the extent it did in such a short time... had not the chamber been specially prepared for the fire." A chemical expert named Dr. Schatz declared in an affidavit that in his opinion "probably a petrol derivate... either paraffin or motor spirit... had been used. The petrol soaked material (rags, cotton-waste or the like) must have been stowed among the chairs and desks and had petrol poured over it." But despite all these imaginative and splendidly subservient theories, the chemical experts who examined the debris had to admit: "Concerning the manner in which the debating chamber was prepared for the fire and what incendiary devices were used, the meticulously careful examination undertaken during the clearing up of the debris has given no indications. It has also not been possible to ascertain any trace that suggests inflammable liquids such as petroleum, benzine, benzol or ether had been used." But even this negative evidence from the chemical examination of the debris did not put the Public Prosecutor off persisting with his Communist gang theory. Under the German system ? which, alas, is the same today as it was then ? public prosecutors and judges are employees of the State. Nominally independent, they are subject in their careers to ministerial displeasure and therefore easily influenced by higher authority. Dr. Vogt pressed on with the charge. For he now had not only van der Lubbe to accuse, but the Communist deputy Torgler, who had been the last to leave the house before the fire, and three Bulgarian agents of the Comintern, Popoff, Taneff and Dimitroff. All four had been arrested and charged with arson. To Dr. Vogt it did not matter at all that Taneff, Popoff and Dimitroff were miles away from Berlin on the night of the fire and that Torgler too could prove his innocence. Nor did he mind that they were bound to be acquitted ? as indeed they were at the subsequent trial before the Supreme Court in Leipzig. All he cared about was his career. And his career depended on his keeping the Communist plot story going to please his masters. The Nazis had suborned their scientific experts, twisted and faked the evidence, all in order to show that van der Lubbe could not possibly have raised the fire entirely by himself ? as he claimed and as the CID men who had checked his story had confirmed. The Nazis insisted that a whole gang of incendiaries must have been at work. Now the Communists joyfully took up the Nazi thesis to use it as the foundation for the accusation that the Nazis were the authors of the fire and van der Lubbe their tool. Author in chief ? of the 'Hitler, G?ring and Goebbels did it' fiction ? was Willy M?nzenberg, the propaganda genius of the German Communist Party. He had managed to escape the German police roundup on February 28th and to flee to Paris. Willy, a dynamic little fellow full of charm and imagination, whom I was later to meet frequently in Paris, soon set up a workshop in the student quarter on the left bank. Then, with the help of a small team of collaborators he proceeded to fake up a number of stories all going to show that the Reichstag fire was a Nazi conspiracy. Every little bit of fact that came the way of the team was seized, twisted and embellished to make up the 'dossier' which was promptly published in two 'Brown Books'. The recipe by which they worked was simple enough. For instance when Walter Gempp, the Berlin Fire chief who had personally directed the operations in the burning Reichstag, was dismissed because he had accepted extensive bribes from a fire extinguisher concern, Willy M?nzenberg and his merry men immediately turned him into a brave anti-Nazi martyr. Gempp, they said, had been got rid of because he knew too much about the fire's Nazi origin, and because he had complained publicly that he had been hindered by the Nazis in his fire fighting. He had complained, they alleged, that when his firemen got into the Reichstag they found at least twenty Stormtroopers already there. A brilliant invention. I can vouch myself, that when I went round the burning building, we met only police officers, no Stormtroopers. But it was universally accepted as the truth. On May 8th, 1933, Ernst Oberfohren, the deputy chief of the nationalist Party and a bitter opponent of his leader Hugenberg's alliance with Hitler, committed suicide out of chagrin over the way things were going in Germany. M?nzenberg at once faked up a secret document which, he alleged, Oberfohren had left behind telling the inside history of the fire. It too proved wonderfully effective. My colleague of the Manchester Guardian fell for the fake and sent a long dispatch, citing it as proof of the Nazis' guilt. M?nzenberg and his team freely seasoned their inventions with Nazi names to give them the stamp of authenticity. Heines, the Stormtroop leader, they said had led a posse of his men into the Reichstag, through the subterranean passage connecting it with G?ring's palace. There they had then poured petrol over the benches in the assembly hall. The story was believed all the world over. The fact that Heines was four hundred miles away at Gleiwitz in Silesia, when this was supposed to be happening, did not detract from it at all. When the Nazis tried to contradict the 'Brown Book's' accusations they were too late. The world, shocked by their appalling crimes against the Jews and horrified by the lawlessness of the Stormtroops, was only too ready to believe that the fire was their work. The legend first sponsored by M?nzenberg grew and grew. After the collapse of Hitler, it became standard practice for former Nazi highups to alibi themselves with some new piece of 'evidence' proving that the Nazis fired the Reichstag. But in almost all instances they merely elaborated some point in Willy M?nzenberg's ingenious myth. Even today, when the 'Hitler, G?ring and Goebbels did it' legend has been thoroughly exploded as a result of the meticulous and painstaking historical investigation done by the German writer Fritz Tobias,* I fear it will still live on among the historical lumber filling the minds of most people.
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But just out of curiosity, if you are implying there is insufficient evidence to satisfy you the Nazis engineered the Reichstag fire, on what evidence do you accept the speculation that the US government engineered the 9/11 attacks?
I am questioning all sides - I do not know if the US government engineered the 9/11 attacks, however it certainly seems within the realm of possibility just like (to you) the Nazis engineering the Reichstag fire. What interests me about the Reichstag fire, in the context of this discussion, is that a person like yourself who will accept nothing but government documents, reports and rhetoric as proof (no matter how shakey)- can just throw that aside when it suits you and resort to journalist say so and your own 'gut feeling'. This a realm you snub and cackle over the rest of us using. You have double standards Pinky.
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One need not label one's self a Liberal in order to hold one or more Liberal misconceptions.
No, but you like to label me a 'Liberal' though don't you.... The Nazis' battle cry throughout their campaign had been ?down with the liberals!? Once in office, Hitler made ?liberals? (a mass group into which he lumped social democrats, gays, Jews, and any threat to Hitler?s model of Christian society) his sworn enemies. hmmmmmmmmmmm
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SWEDEN
Miracle of Science
Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 2,577
Loc: PNW
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3682299 - 01/26/05 08:41 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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well said!
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: CJay]
#3682758 - 01/26/05 11:16 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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CJay writes: My point is not that simple. I do not believe Afganistan was liberated simply for the revitalisation of the poppy fields. I however do view it as a convenient by product. So what are you saying? Your entire tone is critical of the decision by the UN to liberate Afghanistan. What is this insinuation of "convenience" all about anyway? Have you not ever heard of "the rule of unanticipated consequences"? Do you believe the deliberations went something like this -- "So then. We agree that for many reasons it is a good thing for us to organize an invasion of Afghanistan. As a side bonus, this will mean opium production will rise to pre-Taliban levels and we all can resume profiting from this. Let's get started." Are you saying the discussion that should have occurred is this -- "So then. We all agree that for many reasons it is a good thing for us to organize an invasion of Afghanistan. However, this means opium production will rise to pre-Taliban levels and we all know that is a bad thing. Therefore we must not invade Afghanistan." However governments have been up to their eyeballs in the drug trade for as long as there has been a global trade. So you keep asserting -- with no proof whatsoever. No specifics on how governments aid the trade, no specifics on how it profits from the trade, no theories as to why they should wish to involve themselves in it. Just repeated assertions that it is so. Excuse me for declining to accept vague and unsupported assertions as fact. And hey you know - In your manner of definition - Empire IS a 'vast government conspiracy' to run the world. The British had a pretty good go, now the perameters have changed, but the US isn't doing too bad in the modern way. The British had an empire. The US does not. I am not implying anything so simple, as I said above: a convenient side effect is 'profit where profit can be made' - after all this whole war on terror thing is going stupendously overbudget, the dollar is going to shit.....it's a tricky situation and money is needed from anywhere by the super-capitalists. I ask again that you specify how those governments who made the decision to invade Afghanistan profit from increased Afghani opium production. Look, this is a very simple request. Governments derive their revenue through taxation. Illicit drugs are not taxed. Despite your claim that money is needed by the governments involved you are as yet unable to demonstrate the mechanism by which an increase in Afghani opium production results in higher government revenue. When you do I will concede your point. If anything, the reverse is true -- increased availability of illicit drugs demands increased funds be expended to combat the flow. Until you can support your unfounded assertion I will continue to point out you are flapping your gums. Put up or shut up. if you have nothing new to add, concede defeat and move on. Simply repeating in various differing phrases the same tired old unsupported allegations won't cut it. Hussein was not capable of Mass Destruction in any way shape or form. We now believe that to be the case. We didn't know that at the time the decision was made to concede that the ceasefire agreement was worthless and the conditional suspension of hostilities should be lifted. Nearly everyone believed he had that capability -- including those who opposed the invasion on the grounds that it would result in the deaths of tens of thousands when he unleashed his bio and chem weapons. Have you forgotten those widely-publicized objections from the Left? It was less than two years ago, fa cryin' out loud. Besides, we still don't know he lacked that capability. It's possible that the key commander with the password authorizing the opening of the WMD bunker was killed in the first wave of bombs that hit Baghdad. It's also possible he shipped as many as he could quickly gather up across the border. What we do know is that he didn't follow through on his commitment to transparently destroy his existing stocks and programs. The possibility of an extremely small number of meetings having been held between Hussein's government and Al Qaeda is no more a connection (infact less) than the US government's hosting the Taleban over to the Whitehouse for dinner. It proves nothing, it is circumstantial. This isn't a matter for a court of law, you know. As has been pointed out many times, even if the FBI had rounded up every one of the 9/11 hijackers a week before September 11, there was nothing they could be charged with other than violations of various immigration laws in the cases of some. There was certainly insufficient proof to obtain convictions. They would all have been back on the streets in 24 hours. Do you comprehend the implications of that fact? Even knowing what we know today, the standard law enforcement paradigm of a free country is insufficient to handle acts of war. Nice try Pinky, but you know there are enough writers that other people on this forum use to back up their assertions - and you throw them out. This is not any kind of proof in the manner you deem acceptable, this is a journalist's review of events and his own conclusion....one of many differing and equally valid attempts to undertand these events. You love to critique anyone else paying attention to journalists rather than official government reports etc, yet when it suits you you hold a journalist up as ultimate proof! Your attempt to portray William L. Shirer as a mere "journalist" is a clumsy dodge that no one with an ounce of learning will swallow for a second. Shirer is a pre-eminent historian of the history of the Third Reich -- many judge him to be the pre-eminent historian of that period -- and his seminal work from which I quoted is still judged the finest single history ever assembled of what took place. Further, Shirer is quoting the findings of the Nuremberg trials, which did come out in a court of law. And finally, every other historian of the period supports Shirer's report of the Nuremberg findings as accurate. Hey - this might interest you. An equally valid and different explanation by a journalist: Sefton Delmer. This man was actually deeply trusted by the British, enough that they chose him to lead the 'Black Propaganda' operations against Hitler. A man who could gladly say 'the Nazis did it'. Not only that, but a man who was on the scene itself in the aftermath of the fire. An interesting read. Delmer claims van der Lubbe acted alone and on his own initiative, much as the Warren commission claims Oswald acted alone and on his own initiative. Was van der Lubbe telling the truth when he claimed sole credit for his actions? Or was the idea put into his head by undercover Nazi strategists? By all accounts this young man was not of sound mental health. Which of his statements can be taken at face value? All of them? None of them? What interests me about the Reichstag fire, in the context of this discussion, is that a person like yourself who will accept nothing but government documents, reports and rhetoric as proof (no matter how shakey)- can just throw that aside when it suits you and resort to journalist say so and your own 'gut feeling'. This a realm you snub and cackle over the rest of us using. You have double standards Pinky. So sorry CJay, but forming an opinion after researching the findings of the Nuremberg trials and historians such as Shirer and countless others vs. blithely accepting the paranoid speculations of Alex Jones and the loons at rense.com is not exhibiting a double standard. If you think there is an equivalence between the two kinds of sources it's no wonder you are snubbed and cackled at by reasonable people. Shirer lived in Berlin during the rise to power of the Nazi party. He worked painstakingly and exhaustively on his opus magnum for two freaking decades. Alex Jones and the rest of the tinfoil beanie brigade were shrieking their unsubstantiated lunacies in less than two weeks. You would do well to re-read Shirer's introduction to his work, where he reviews the staggering amount of documentation -- measuring literally in the hundreds of tons -- seized by the Allies after the fall of Berlin, and the incredible completeness of the transcripts and exhibitions of documents presented at Nuremberg. This isn't something he pulled out of his ass after lovingly adding another layer of foil to his tinfoil beanie, CJay. As Shirer points out, at this late date it is unlikely the complete story will ever become known. It is not impossible that van der Lubbe acted on his own mad impulse. If he did, so what? It sheds no light either way on the 9/11 attacks. It certainly does nothing to support your contention that a factor in the UN's decision to authorize the invasion of Afghanistan was the hope it would boost government profits through the resumption of opium production by Afghani poppy farmers. That's just a red herring you tossed in to try to obscure the fact that you have no support whatsoever for your arbitrary assertions. pinky
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: WTC 911 Fires - Not So Hot, Eh? [Re: Phred]
#3688185 - 01/27/05 11:11 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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No specifics on how governments aid the trade, no specifics on how it profits from the trade, no theories as to why they should wish to involve themselves in it
I have already told you that I have very few specifics of the kind you are after, these kind of specifics would be very difficult to get hold of.
What I have explained before is that I don't know what is going on with regard to this or the 9/11 tragedy, but that I am considering distinct possibilities....that was when you got out your invisible monkeys guiding light into our eyes speil (a good read it was too), but I am not talking about anything that fanciful.
I believe, as I have said, that at best government subconsciously creates situations that strengthen as well as fortify its position and identity; at worst government consciously masterminds these efforts with efficient dastardliness. I suspect the reality is somewhere inbetween, and is different for most issues.
I have also told you that the fact that the 'drug war' is integral to the identity of the modern government is an excellent reason to make sure there is a war to fight. For without one the government would have one less job to do, and that would be a big job that had been requiring a lot of firepower and troops - both on the streets of home as cops, in the armies and their missions, the secret services and so forth. This is a loss of power, and government seeks to increase its power. They will not give up this foothold.
They would be involved in the trade itself (I suspect) via secret service departments. Secret Services that are virtually autonomous and that require vast amounts of invisible money to carry out their endless secret missions and wars. Secret Services that are often a law unto themselves, and which have on occasion been rumbled - such as the Air America affair.
Invisible money.
As I have told you many times - I have no exact details for you on Afghanistan, just a possible spectrum of involvement, so I do not know why you persist in asking. Perhaps you are trying to make me look/feel stupid?
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Even knowing what we know today, the standard law enforcement paradigm of a free country is insufficient to handle acts of war.
That does not take away from the fact that there is absolutely not a shred of evidence that Iraq and Al Qaeda collaborated at all. Even today with all the 'facts' gathered and portrayed in the 9/11 commision report. Sure there might have been one or two meetings...but these guys were enemies of each other, who knows what the meetings were about. Certainly a relationship never flourished and there was never any collaboration. To be so sure these 2 groups collaborated is to believe a story thinner than my range of possibiliity that the US is complicit in the heroin trade! Where are the specifics? There are none whatsoever.....
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The British had an empire. The US does not.
The US has a huge economic empire at which it sits Emperor of the World
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Nearly everyone believed he (Saddam) had that capability -- including those who opposed the invasion on the grounds that it would result in the deaths of tens of thousands when he unleashed his bio and chem weapons. Have you forgotten those widely-publicized objections from the Left? It was less than two years ago, fa cryin' out loud.
I really don't give a hoot what the lefties, or the righties or the friggin aliens thought about this. It was obvious he didn't have the capability especially when the US began to panic upon relisation that UN inspections were going ahead...though a little behind schedule. That Blix was happy with progress....and that no threat was being unearthed. That's when diplomacy was pushed aside, at the moment diplomacy was beginning to win; and that could not be allowed to happen, because the US wouldn't get Iraq.
What might have also told us that Saddam had no WMD was the TV interview with Rice and Powell in 2001 where they confidently spouted on that Saddam was no threat, that he has no WMD, that he was just another lame dictator.
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Besides, we still don't know he lacked that capability. It's possible that the key commander with the password authorizing the opening of the WMD bunker was killed in the first wave of bombs that hit Baghdad. It's also possible he shipped as many as he could quickly gather up across the border.
Man you are priceless, oh well at least you are considering the possibilities. I can see it now...'launch the nukes, bio weapons and chemical weapons!!....oh shit!the one and only guy with the keys to it all is dead! My off the scale WMD arsenal is impotised! eek! I'm gonna go hide in a hole!'(Saddam)
or maybe it was: 'well I've got all these nukes and bio-weaponry and some really nasty chemicals to fuck the Americans if they come on my land, or anyone else for that matter!...what's that? The US is invading? eeek! ship them all to Syria quick!!! I'm gonna go hide in my hole!!'
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What we do know is that he didn't follow through on his commitment to transparently destroy his existing stocks and programs.
GWB hasn't transparently won an election or done anything at all for that matter yet! Oh I forgot, mists of vagueness, especially in cases for war and mass murder are ok for him, he's the US president.
As for Saddam, well it is strange then (as I have pointed out) that Rice and Powell could be so sure he had destroyed them just months before 9/11. Maybe it was just an almighty slip of the tongue eh?
To find a few sarin shells and 'traces' of long dead programmes is not any answer to the allegations made. 'traces' of weapons programmes can be found in virtually any nation on the planet - perhaps we should invade all those threats?
Not one WMD has been found, not one person with any involvement has turned up....maybe everybody's in Syria tweaking the nuke warheads and cursing Bush??
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Your attempt to portray William L. Shirer as a mere "journalist" is a clumsy dodge that no one with an ounce of learning will swallow for a second. Shirer is a pre-eminent historian of the history of the Third Reich...And finally, every other historian of the period supports Shirer's report of the Nuremberg findings as accurate.
Historian he may be, but journalist was his trade. He was a historian of the age through which he lived, which is grand, a commentator. Sure he's got plenty of angle....but not the only one. I am sorry Pinky but the whole story is theory, there is no actual proof. Just like there i no proof of Saddam's WMD, no proof of Saddam's collaboration with Al Qaeda, no proof the US governmentis right now profitting from the poppy fields of Afghanistan.
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Was van der Lubbe telling the truth when he claimed sole credit for his actions? Or was the idea put into his head by undercover Nazi strategists? By all accounts this young man was not of sound mental health. Which of his statements can be taken at face value? All of them? None of them?
Likewise the Nazis on trial at Neuremberg...
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forming an opinion after researching the findings of the Nuremberg trials and historians such as Shirer and countless others vs. blithely accepting the paranoid speculations of Alex Jones and the loons at rense.com is not exhibiting a double standard. If you think there is an equivalence between the two kinds of sources it's no wonder you are snubbed and cackled at by reasonable people.
That is the first time I have heard of rense.com and I do not know who Alex Jones is....I have not been talking about or ever using any ridiculous sources. I think the sources I have used in this thread are all utterly reasonable. You love to cackle on about the bbc and the guardian and though I have not cited either of them at all in this thread, I certainly find them a world apart from the 'lunacy' you imply with these rense.com jabs.
And as I said Shirer and the community of historians may well not have their story right, as Delmer points out. It is a theory, a strong theory perhaps, but a theory none-the-less. Delmer is a highly respected man who worked for the British government, who also lived in Berlin during the buildup to WW2 as well as having intimate knowledge of the 3rd Reich. His opinion and theory are just as valid. The truth is still up for question.
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As Shirer points out, at this late date it is unlikely the complete story will ever become known. It is not impossible that van der Lubbe acted on his own mad impulse. If he did, so what? It sheds no light either way on the 9/11 attacks. It certainly does nothing to support your contention that a factor in the UN's decision to authorize the invasion of Afghanistan was the hope it would boost government profits through the resumption of opium production by Afghani poppy farmers. That's just a red herring you tossed in to try to obscure the fact that you have no support whatsoever for your arbitrary assertions.
No Pinky, what it does show is that the possibility of what actually happened can be different from the widely accepted myth. And that is worthy of consideration in cases such as we are now faced with. The herring is not red, but the US Administration stink of some kind of fish.
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