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InvisibleSwami
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Posts: 15,413
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Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis
    #3639373 - 01/17/05 04:16 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I recently received a scathing letter from a member ending our friendship. The details are unimportant, but I thought there were several good points for discussion. I will call the friend "Joe" for this thread.

Joe formed a positive picture of me and then formed a negative picture of me. Joe was "sure" that his original assessment was correct and is now sure that his current assessment is correct. Reread this statement. Notice that if he is now correct, he was wrong at first. Does doubt as to his own judgment come into play? No. Most everyone is certain that their current view is the correct one no matter how many times they have been wrong in the past. The truth is: neither his original assessment nor his current assessment has anything to do with me.

Joe is also a Christian who has dedicated his life to God. What was the purpose of this letter? Was it to communicate, to heal, was it about forgiveness? No, the sole purpose was an attempt to hurt me. This seems contrary to the basics of Christianity and clearly did not come from a place of love, but of anger. How can one who has given his life to God stray so far from the core teaching?

Note also that I write the same whether in S&P or not. Some follow the guidelines here, then get mean with people elsewhere. Joe agreed with my banning, but in private used several nasty ad hominems. "You are this! You are that!" The irony is overwhelming and he probably doesn't even see it.

One final note is that ALL positive things about our friendship were overlooked. This is important when you want to get yourself worked up. Focus soley on the negative (or perceived negative) in order to justify your hatred.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
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why is this an S&P topic? [Re: Swami]
    #3639408 - 01/17/05 04:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I avoid the why question at all costs usually, but is this turning into the Ann Landers column?

as ann landers I would have to say, try to work it out.
his precepts are his,
yours are yours.
neither needs to judge how well the other is following his own precepts.
they are for personal progress. no?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: why is this an S&P topic? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3639440 - 01/17/05 04:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If someone says their eyes are blue and they are brown and I notice that, is that a judgement? I was merely noting discrepancies between claimed reality and actual reality.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: Swami]
    #3639453 - 01/17/05 04:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I recently received a scathing letter from a member ending our friendship. The details are unimportant, but I thought there were several good points for discussion. I will call the friend "Joe" for this thread.

Joe formed a positive picture of me and then formed a negative picture of me. Joe was "sure" that his original assessment was correct and is now sure that his current assessment is correct. Reread this statement. Notice that if he is now correct, he was wrong at first. Does doubt as to his own judgment come into play? No. Most everyone is certain that their current view is the correct one no matter how many times they have been wrong in the past. The truth is: neither his original assessment nor his current assessment has anything to do with me.

Joe is also a Christian who has dedicated his life to God. What was the purpose of this letter? Was it to communicate, to heal, was it about forgiveness? No, the sole purpose was an attempt to hurt me. This seems contrary to the basics of Christianity and clearly did not come from a place of love, but of anger. How can one who has given his life to God stray so far from the core teaching?

Note also that I write the same whether in S&P or not. Some follow the guidelines here, then get mean with people elsewhere. Joe agreed with my banning, but in private used several nasty ad hominems. "You are this! You are that!" The irony is overwhelming and he probably doesn't even see it.

One final note is that ALL positive things about our friendship were overlooked. This is important when you want to get yourself worked up. Focus soley on the negative (or perceived negative) in order to justify your hatred.




I agree with this..

people almost always trust their own opinions, emotions, feelings, intuitions as if they are the LAWS of the universe, yet they change them every day.

It funny how some people can be happy one moment and think someone should be understood and helped, then the next minute the get angry and think he should be punished, then again the swich to happy mode and are still blind enough not to see that these "truths" are caused by emotions and current views on something.

A truth can not be found in the mind that is motivated in ANY way


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: Swami]
    #3640059 - 01/17/05 07:08 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Sure you were being objectified. As you said, you stayed the same you, so the change was in the others perception.

To me it's a classic example of how people put others up on pedastals and then knock them off. Why do people do this, I dunno. Like in Hollywood, they build ya up so they can tear ya down and it makes them feel good and powerful and the actress is going wtf? You loved me yesterday and hate me today and I am still the same person. What is one to do but go :crazy2:

Maybe someday you and Joe will laugh about it. Maybe you both already are. And if not, Joe has some power issues to work on.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3640943 - 01/17/05 10:31 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Swami:
I don't know about the letter as I did not read it, but a true Christian would not attempt such an act of hatred. A true Christian would forgive you of any acts that offended him/her. That sounds like a Christian "of the moment" who will move on to another fad as soon as it suits him/her. I have known several newly minted Christians who decided my friendship was worth so little as to suddenly heap a load of scorn onto me. Being the good neo-primitive/pagan/shaman/sun worshipper that I am, I forgave them.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: why is this an S&P topic? [Re: Swami]
    #3641191 - 01/17/05 11:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"If someone says their eyes are blue and they are brown and I notice that, is that a judgement? I was merely noting discrepancies between claimed reality and actual reality. "

i see. so what someone else thinks/percieves is 'claimed reality' and what you think/ percieve is "actual reality" ?

what you are actually noticing is a discrepency between your perception and his.

as to your problem.... i dont know what to say. you only knew him over the internet, so presumably you can get by without his friendship.

either way lets all love each other, and ourselves.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: Swami]
    #3641207 - 01/17/05 11:31 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"...stray so far from the core teaching?"

we all do, even from the teachings we hold within ourselves that aren't apart of a religion. we all have done what you have descrbied above, and we have all been apart of that irony.

if you want to help this person then point something out to them...if you can't help, then you did your part and move on.

i guess my question to you is...why the analysis?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: kaiowas]
    #3641570 - 01/18/05 12:45 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think he was pointing out the incongruency of a "Christian" engaging in such an act. The indication being that this person (with a generalization implied towards all religious persons---maybe thats me, though) was a hippocrite. I know you probably got that so why ask "why the analysis?". The reason was quite clear to me. I don't agree with the conclusion he was leading towards, but his motivation was clear.
One other thing:
"we all do, even from the teachings we hold within ourselves that aren't apart of a religion"
One's priciples while dynamic should be ironclad. One should always know what they stand for and seek desparately not to violate it. Even small lapses must be immediately rectified to keep one's integrity intact. When I was younger I was slightly more lax, but I now realize that my integrity is THE most valuable thing I have.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3641645 - 01/18/05 01:03 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

christians like to point out how other christians are less christian than they should be, and same goes is societies of jews etc.

it is the degenerate and backbiting side of the spiritual society equation when we come to that. at best it leads to ganging up or bullying at worst to isolation.

precepts are for personal progress


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3641659 - 01/18/05 01:07 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"Joe is also a Christian who has dedicated his life to God. What was the purpose of this letter? Was it to communicate, to heal, was it about forgiveness? No, the sole purpose was an attempt to hurt me. This seems contrary to the basics of Christianity and clearly did not come from a place of love, but of anger. How can one who has given his life to God stray so far from the core teaching?"

Maybe his external actions took one extreme, polarizing his internal ones towards the other end. So he believes in God so symbolically that, deep down, he really doesn't believe at all. In other words, it is nothing more than a distraction for him. Unfortunately, people *do* believe passionately in delusions, as passionately as they are fearful of the world they misunderstand.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3641860 - 01/18/05 02:29 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

the_phoenix said:
Maybe his external actions took one extreme, polarizing his internal ones towards the other end. So he believes in God so symbolically that, deep down, he really doesn't believe at all. In other words, it is nothing more than a distraction for him. Unfortunately, people *do* believe passionately in delusions, as passionately as they are fearful of the world they misunderstand.



There is much truth here.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineTinTree
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: Swami]
    #3641882 - 01/18/05 02:38 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

No matter how Christian, we are only human. It's all we can be.


--------------------
"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: TinTree]
    #3641999 - 01/18/05 03:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TinTree said:
No matter how Christian, we are only human. It's all we can be.




A maxim to live by: "Be yourself, but be your better self"


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: TinTree]
    #3642220 - 01/18/05 05:57 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

No matter how Christian, we are only human. It's all we can be.

I truly hate this excuse. How can one be a Christian (unless in name only) and not even grasp Jesus simple #1 teaching? I am not talking of perfection, but if it means no more than wearing a gold cross and telling the world you are a member, what is the point?

Joe told me that I was "not at all spiritual" (though I never claimed to be) while spitting venom and trying to stab me with his words. If your actions are not guided by the Holy Spirit, what is the difference? What exactly is the belief - that you can do whatsoever you choose and fall back on the "I am only human" escape clause?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: Swami]
    #3642525 - 01/18/05 10:21 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It's just a matter of thinking about what you're doing before you do it.

Not a popular activity.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: Swami]
    #3648509 - 01/19/05 03:50 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The truth is: neither his original assessment nor his current assessment has anything to do with me.



Another "Truth" is: some qualities we think we have don't come across as qualities to others. The same goes for issues.

Quote:

No, the sole purpose was an attempt to hurt me.



If his assesment has nothing to do with you, what makes you think your assesment has anything to do with him?

Quote:

The irony is overwhelming and he probably doesn't even see it.



Like the irony in posting about a private message that wasn't intended to go public in the first place (or Joe would have posted it normally)?

Quote:

Focus soley on the negative (or perceived negative) in order to justify your hatred.



I see no positivity in your post.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Edited by Alan Stone (01/19/05 03:55 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3649062 - 01/19/05 05:44 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If his assesment has nothing to do with you, what makes you think your assesment has anything to do with him?
And what was my assessment? Only that his words and actions are inconsistent with his own belief system. That is observed fact, not judgement.

Like the irony in posting about a private message that wasn't intended to go public in the first place (or Joe would have posted it normally)?
I frequently post about things that happen around and to me. That seems to be more relevant than posting about 1930's ghost pictures. The writer's identity has not and will not be revealed and neither have the details, therefore no privacy was violated.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: Swami]
    #3649285 - 01/19/05 06:24 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Your assesment was what I quoted: "No, the sole purpose was an attempt to hurt me."
Unless your mind reading powers are a proven fact, that's an assesment.

Edit-in: I didn't mean to imply you invaded his privacy. I meant to imply that there might have been a reason why he chose to resolve it by means of a private message instead of a public thread.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Edited by Alan Stone (01/19/05 06:28 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Good-bye Letter from a Friend - an analysis [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3649315 - 01/19/05 06:29 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If I were to say to you, "You are a childish asshole," (and I am certainly NOT saying that!), you would most likely assess that:

A. I was sending you love.

B. I was attempting to communicate and bridge our misunderstandings.

C. I was angry and trying to hurt you.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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