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Offlinesemilance
journeyman
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Registered: 07/29/00
Posts: 20
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
re-animate dried philosipher stones ???
    #363720 - 07/30/01 05:41 PM (22 years, 7 months ago)

I have recantly aquired some tampanensis sclerotia (dried),is it possible to grow mycelium from these ?
if so could anyone point me in the right direction ? ta!

When freedom is outlawed only the outlaws will be free !!!!!!!


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Anonymous

Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: semilance]
    #363818 - 07/30/01 09:11 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Hopefully they were kept clean. But if you soak them in sterile water, they will revive within a couple of days. If you don't know if they are clean, soak them in some peroxide solution, or surface sterilize with iodine before soaking.
they will get fuzzy white, and you can transfer to plates.
Idealy you want clean sclerotia, but you should still be able to isolate mycelium from them. You may wan't to ask UNA at MushMush, he isolated an exceptional strain of tampanensis from sclerotia he got.


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Offlineauto59009
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Registered: 05/20/01
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Loc: Australia
Last seen: 22 years, 3 months
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: ]
    #364025 - 07/31/01 06:25 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

hehe no idea about the tampa scleroatia, but the esoteric thread title caught my eye :wink:

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Offlinesemilance
journeyman
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Registered: 07/29/00
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Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: ]
    #364204 - 07/31/01 03:28 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

thanks for the responce chaps,
i will give it a go .Do you think honey water / peroxide would start off the mycellium ?

When freedom is outlawed only the outlaws will be free !!!!!!!


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InvisibleBrownPastures
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Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 968
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Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: semilance]
    #364242 - 07/31/01 04:16 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

This is impossible. The suggestion (whoevermadeit) that adding water to DRIED samples to "reanimate" them is preposterous. Dried mycelium is dead so are anykind of DRIED fruits that that mycelium produced. Unfortunately what you are suggesting is impossible.

D D Island

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InvisibleChampion des Champignons
long standing member;)

Registered: 07/26/00
Posts: 2,680
Loc: Alba
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: BrownPastures]
    #364340 - 07/31/01 07:43 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

Dried mycelium is dead so are anykind of DRIED fruits that that mycelium produced.



This is true. Exept in the case of sclerotia, which are designed to dry out and stay viable until rehydrated. The mushroom produces them in order to survive dry spells and then fruit when the conditions are favourable again. At least this is how I understand it.

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Anonymous

Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: BrownPastures]
    #364360 - 07/31/01 08:42 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Brownpastures I feel the need for some really tall boots to wade through your pastures. What exactly do you think the function of sclerotia is? To survive extreme environmental conditions. That is why they are 30% dry as opposed to 8-10% for shrooms. This is the advantage of sclerotia.
The first time I ever heard of sclerotia was in the December 1989 issue of High Times. It had a very interesting article by Stephen Peele about magic stones. It was an article talking about Dr. Pollock and sclerotia. In this article is a picture of two year old dried sclerotia that was soaked in water for two days, and clearly revived. This is the physiological nature of sclerotia. Not an opinion, but a scientifically proven fact.


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InvisibleBrownPastures
old hand

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 968
Loc: here
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: ]
    #364499 - 08/01/01 12:22 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

A COMPLETELY dried TISSUE sample (it does not matter what kind of tissue this is) is DEAD. If you are considering HIGH TIMES as your SOURCE of knowledge i suggest you look further.

There fore, Stephen Peele or who ever this dude is can talk about his "magic stones" all he wants. What IS a SCIENTIFICALY PROVEN fact is that DEAD , or DEHYDRATED living TISSUE .. CAN NOT be re-animated.

Please , prove me wrong.

D D Island

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InvisibleCLuB99
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Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: BrownPastures]
    #364663 - 08/01/01 09:56 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

if is a dehidrated tissue (like if u did it with drierite) it's dead...
but normal driedi tissue should work, of course if is quite fresh, not 10 years old.....
so you're right brownpastures if you're talking about completely deidrated tissue...

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InvisibleChampion des Champignons
long standing member;)

Registered: 07/26/00
Posts: 2,680
Loc: Alba
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: CLuB99]
    #364744 - 08/01/01 12:23 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Let's see if I can help settle this. I've got a load of CaCl2 dried mexicana sclerotia. I'll soak a few in some water and see what happens.....

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Anonymous

Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: BrownPastures]
    #364816 - 08/01/01 02:20 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Actually the person I was referring to was Pollock, DR. Pollock the guy who discovered P. tampanensis, and isolated the first living cultivated cultures, whom without we would not know it existed. But if you want to ignore what a sclerotia is exactly, be my guest. After all I'm not answering your questions, just providing the facts. The sclerotia he has pictured, DR. Pollock, were two years old and dry. After two days of soaking, they started to come back to life. They will actually survive much longer storage, but I'm just giving you the reference for the FACT I gave. Look it up !!! By the way this was when the FMRC was still a legitimate organization, before the feds shut it down. The sclerotia where actually sold via the mail in a dry state, to start cultures from. COSMIC CAMOTE. 30% dry, actually means that inside the "rocks" is viable tissue. Unlike all other mycelium, this is the FUNCTION of sclerotia. There is no argument. Look up sclerotia in any botanical text, which actually mentions it in detail, it will say the same thing. It is not completely dry, or dead, in it's naturally dry state.


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Anonymous

Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: BrownPastures]
    #364836 - 08/01/01 02:39 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

I was referring to DR. POLLOCK, the guy who discovered P. tampanensis. 30% Dry means there is living tissue inside the stones, I don't and never will use a dessicant to dry. And if you weigh your sclerotia before and after drying, they still probably aren't completely dead inside, even with a dessicant. This is the function of a sclerotia, to protect the mycelium inside it from being completly dead, under dry conditions that may carry on for very long periods of time, even years. The outside of the structure is dead, but inside is living tissue, mycelium. I'm not absolutely positive as to how dry they become when YOU use a dessicant. Is the weight under 30% in it's dry state. But don't begin to argue against what I have said, about a dried sclerotia reviving, because it is FACT. Since when does the word dry imply using chemicals to kill the living tissue inside the sclerotia. The guy wasn't asking that!!!!! But either way, I still think you could probably get some growth from a dessicant dried sclerotia, but that I know is not a FACT, because I haven't tried that, and no-one has in any Scientific Journal that has been written on the subject of sclerotia. But we will soon know from Champions experiment. What is the dry weight of your sclerotia Champion?


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InvisibleChampion des Champignons
long standing member;)

Registered: 07/26/00
Posts: 2,680
Loc: Alba
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: ]
    #364939 - 08/01/01 05:44 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

What is the dry weight of your sclerotia Champion?



0.23g. Not very big I know, but I broke up the larger ones into several bits for drying purposes. Do you think I should use peroxidated water, or plain old tap?

Old Donkeys don't die, they go to:
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InvisibleBrownPastures
old hand

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 968
Loc: here
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: ]
    #365012 - 08/01/01 07:44 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Ofcourse there is no argument. If a given tissue is only 30% dry then OBVIOUSLY there is "some" viable tissue in the sample.

Yes, if i had a mushroom that was dried to 30% some agar work might provide me with a viable mycelial culture.

Of course i know what sclerotia is and nowhere in my post did i say that i didn't nor did I IMPLY that a DEHYDRATED tissue sample (especialy from an organism that is made up of 90% water) could be used.

Sclerotia isn't some "mystical" magical stone. It's a genetic trait, breeded to do so. Yes, some varieties are more prone to this, but if you knew ANYTHING about this we would not be having this conversation.

Dessicated LIVING tissue is not viable. THAT'S IT. I'm not saying Pollock is wrong. I'm saying YOU are wrong.

See, i can read Time magazine and feel like i know everthing that's going on. But, the fact is, what you just read was introductary sentence streched out into a "story". Do you understand????

Reanimation of dessicated tissue samples (of fungi especialy) is impossible. The whole nature of the cell structure is based upon the presence of h2o. Once that h2o is dessicated the cell ceases to function- IT'S DEAD.




D D Island

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Anonymous

Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: BrownPastures]
    #365040 - 08/01/01 08:43 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

So your still saying a dried sclerotia will not revive!!!! You and holographic mind should hang out together. If you would like some more confirmation to this FACT, I could, and would be happy to point you in the direction of scientific journals, that will repeat exactly what I just said. So you agree, that a sclerotia that dries to 30% matter as opposed to 8- 10 % dry matter, has viable tissue and will revive. Which is exactly what I stated, and you initialy disagreed with. And no High Times is not what I would call a good source of info these days especially. But this does not change the simple FACT, that sclerotia can be revived, which was the original question posed and answered, before you decided to add your two cents, which amounted to stating a very obvious point that DEAD MATTER IS DEAD. Thanks for clearing that up for me you had me on my toes!!!!! Go fuck with someone who doesn't have a clue, maybe look in the mirror, and pick up a futile argument with him. Just joking, don't really care what you think, you are obviously not here to answer the questions posted, but to pick fights. HOLOGRAPHIC MIND IS THAT YOU. Or did some quirk of nature put TWO people here to stop the spread of INFORMATION for the sake of EGO enlargement. I guess the WORD REANIMATION was taken a bit literal by some of are more GENIUS inclined members.
And your absolutely right no where did you imply that a dehydrated tissue sample( sclerotia) would remain viable. To the contrary you stated it wouldn't. You were wrong. Sclerotia is viable after being dried and then rehydrated. WHICH IN CASE YOU WEREN"T PAYING ATTENTION, IS WHAT I STATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND for the last time we are not talking about a MUSHROOM ( fruiting body), which dries to 8-10% dry weight. So stop making that comparison to. And it is not VARIETIES, they are SPECIES.
I KNOW YOU WERE JUST STATING THAT DEAD MATERIAL WON"T COME BACK TO LIFE, and I am not dissagreeing with that. DO you really think that was the intent of the question? And why are you basing your not so technically correct arguments on a not so technically correct question? GET IT?
UNDERSTAND?
Peace
Teonan


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InvisibleChampion des Champignons
long standing member;)

Registered: 07/26/00
Posts: 2,680
Loc: Alba
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: ]
    #365191 - 08/02/01 12:14 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

BP (Newport), Teonan, stop the flaming please, it's not helping anything. Please..
BP I think you're maybe missing the point:
In reply to:

Of course there is no argument. If a given tissue is only 30% dry then OBVIOUSLY there is "some" viable tissue in the sample



When sclerotia are dried they weigh ~30% of what they weighed before they were dried, as opposed to fruits, which are about 8-10%. Right?
As for _total_ dehydration, the best dessicant cannot achieve that, there's always _some_ moisture retained, and this is what sclerotia are designed to do.
I don't even see what this argument is about, other than for its own sake:( We'll see what my "experiment" comes up with......

Old Donkeys don't die, they go to:
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InvisibleBrownPastures
old hand

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 968
Loc: here
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: Champion des Champignons]
    #365404 - 08/02/01 08:10 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Oh well, i guess we'll see what happens :wink:. Teoblablabla or what ever your name is. No one was insulting you, i don't see why you feel like you have to insult me. Arguments about things like this are good.


D D Island

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Anonymous

Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: BrownPastures]
    #365600 - 08/02/01 01:07 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

BP I wasn't insulting you, you were taking the Word reanimation a little to literal, and your argument was based on that. I have revived sclerotia, so I know it works.
Peace
Teonan
And this was nothing close to a flame war, I was simply answering a question, and restating facts to the opposing argument. That is it!!!! When someone continues to argue against the facts, I will continue to argue them back. My name calling was a joke, which I stated!!! THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE, holographic mind!!!
And CDC I was wondering what the dry weight of your sclerotia was in relation to wet weight. As in did your dessicant dry it below the 30% naturally dry state?
There is no Flaming going on. Flaming involves people arguing senselessly about nothing. We were arguing about a fact, not an opinion. That is the difference. These arguments seem to be necessary, especially when no one adds to a discussion between to conflicting points of view. But If someone were to enter this argument now, and just call someone names, or add no information relavent, that would be flaming.

Edited by Teonan on 08/02/01 02:21 PM.


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Offlinesemilance
journeyman
Male
Registered: 07/29/00
Posts: 20
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: Champion des Champignons]
    #365792 - 08/02/01 05:11 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Wow!
did i start all this ?.
You guyes need some hurb, quick.
but thanks for ALL the info far more than i could have asked for.

Hey champ let us know how the experiment is going on.
do you post on the uk mushroommap ?

when i finally get my arse into gear and start the stones off i'll let you all know.

When freedom is outlawed only the outlaws will be free !!!!!!!


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InvisibleChampion des Champignons
long standing member;)

Registered: 07/26/00
Posts: 2,680
Loc: Alba
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: semilance]
    #365804 - 08/02/01 05:33 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

>And CDC I was wondering what the dry weight of your sclerotia was in relation to wet weight. As in did your dessicant dry it below the 30% naturally dry state?
Umm, dunno, but I would imagine so.
>There is no Flaming going on.
Okay.
>Hey champ let us know how the experiment is going on.
do you post on the uk mushroommap ?
That's me;) The chosen sclerotium has been soaking in water, with a small amount of antibiotic added, for 24h now. I may be my imagination, or it may be very slightly fluffy. It certainly is BLACK though. Or maybe very dark blue.


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hmmm........

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Offlinehermes3
journeyman
Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 56
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: Champion des Champignons]
    #367711 - 08/06/01 01:39 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Jesus, you all sure do get in some pissing contests. Its not a contest but a shared experience. I for one certainly hope the stones can be reanimated as I have stored some for some years with just that reason. I had thought it a simple matter to rehydrate so I anxiously await your results.


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InvisibleChampion des Champignons
long standing member;)

Registered: 07/26/00
Posts: 2,680
Loc: Alba
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: hermes3]
    #368256 - 08/07/01 03:33 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Doesn't seem to have worked.

Old Donkeys don't die, they go to:
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Anonymous

Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: Champion des Champignons]
    #368374 - 08/07/01 08:42 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

CDC it worked for me twice already. My sclerotia from the mexicana were more difficult than the tampanensis. The mexicana need to be relatively decent size. The viable tissue is inside. If any contaminants were on the outside surface, from casing soil, you may have complications. The first 24 hours will rehydrate them, but the living tissue is inside. Treat it like you are cloning a dirty mushroom. Transfer tissue from the inside of the sclerotia. The very small rocks are too dry.
I assure you it works, just start with a larger sclerotia. I use sclerotia that I grew on agar plates, to assure sterility. The tampanensis is much easier to work with, because the sclerotia from these dry to a different texture.


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Offlinesemilance
journeyman
Male
Registered: 07/29/00
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Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: Champion des Champignons]
    #368899 - 08/08/01 04:49 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

cdc pm me if you want to play with tampa's.


When freedom is outlawed only the outlaws will be free !!!!!!!


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InvisibleUna
controlleddemolition

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 970
Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: semilance]
    #369182 - 08/09/01 04:42 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

The following quote is from Growing Gourmet And Medicinal Mushrooms (page 421), and although this is about Morels i'm pretty sure it also goes for tampanensis

....They can be dried to the point of flammability, and upon rehydration, the cells swell with moisture and the sclerotium springs to life and either transforms into a mushroom or reemerges as a new mycelial network.....

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InvisibleCLuB99
lost somewhere in time and space
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Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: Una]
    #369228 - 08/09/01 08:26 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

wee welcome back una.....hope you enjoyied your holidays:)

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Anonymous

Re: re-animate dried philosipher stones ??? [Re: Una]
    #369283 - 08/09/01 10:33 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks UNA!!!!


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