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InvisibleSinbad
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The Case Against Psycotherapy
    #3634392 - 01/16/05 09:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I agree with many of the points made in this article. I agree becuase both my brother and my mother have seen various psycotherapists of their own accord, and i see very little positive change in them whatsoever. These people charge large ammounts of cash for their services, yet i many close friends have helped my family infintley more than any Quack with a Phd.

Basically i think we need fewer intellectuals with professional bits of toilet paper and more open hearted, compassionate friends who have been through similar experiences! In the end compassion is more of a medicine than intellectual psycobable.

Id like to add that i have indeed met one very good psycotherapist, she in fact gave her services free to anyone who needed help. She is also in agreement with much of this article.

http://www.antipsychiatry.org/psychoth.htm


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: Sinbad]
    #3634427 - 01/16/05 10:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

very valid gripes.

but sometimes it helps to talk to a blank wall
even if you have to pay through the nose.

often the prevailing role package (habitual whining or brow beating may be normal in a 'working'relationship) has to be sidestepped for any healing to begin, and there are no guarantees that healing will take place even with the best mind professionals.

would you say that the whole family has been taken to the mat by a martial arts father?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3634438 - 01/16/05 10:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If you are going to pay through the nose to talk to a blank wall, then you must be seriously insane! But i suppose this is how most shrinks make their money!

'would you say that the whole family has been taken to the mat by a martial arts father?'

I do not understand what you are trying to infer by this statement? If you are saying what i think your saying the answer is no!

There is a long history of mental illness on my mothers side of the family and unfortunatley my brother and mother have suffered the worst of this! My mother has a serious alcohol, and manic depression problem, and my brother has schizophrenia.

Without meditation, Qi-gong and martial arts im sure my father and i would be in a mental hospital right now becuase of the serious pressure we have been under these past few years.

Fortunatley we are doing ok, and are pretty stable for now!  :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: Sinbad]
    #3634450 - 01/16/05 10:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

alcohol is the worst solvent.

I am happy you are doing ok, and sad the money was wasted.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: Sinbad]
    #3634480 - 01/16/05 11:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What if we had psychotherapists who are like friends to you?

I think compassionate friends sometimes can not see the bigger pricture and can be in the illusion as much as the man who cries for help.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: skystone]
    #3634523 - 01/16/05 11:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

skystone said:
What if we had psychotherapists who are like friends to you?

I think compassionate friends sometimes can not see the bigger pricture and can be in the illusion as much as the man who cries for help.




anything that helps cast light on the bigger pric is welcomed

(sorry -some spelling is precious)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3634615 - 01/16/05 12:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I suppose it would be easier to open up to a psycotherapist who was also your friend and knows you really well. But then again perhaps not, as redgreenvines sadi maybe its best to talk to somebody you dont know. But i have always found this not to be the case!

Especially as some psycotherapists have swolen ego's and the whole intellectual supremacy trip going on! Who wants to talk with someone like that, better a friend who has been through similar experiences and knows how you are!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: Sinbad]
    #3634688 - 01/16/05 01:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Friends are invaluable in life Sinbad, but if someone has a personality disorder like Borderline Personality Disorder - a trait disorder, not a state disorder, then meds don't change things and it lasts a lifetime. Under these conditions, a knowledgeable psychotherapists 'knows' that confrontational-type speech is absolutely necessary when dealing with the BPD's irrationality. Anything less than this conscious utilization of 'in-your-faceness' (howsoever polite and tactful) will be received as another 'abandonment,' and abandonment issues (without getting technical) from early childhood are the agreed-upon cause of this condition.

My ex-wife was BPD, and through the living laboratory of a 10 year marriage, I can tell you that simple kindness, love and support in all areas did nothing to curtail the worsening pathology. It was perhaps my fault not to employ more confrontation in our interactions, but she was my wife, not a client. I did not know she was so sick when I met her, but she knew something was wrong and did a masterful job of hiding the major characterizing symptoms of the disease until after we were married. She selected other types of mentally-ill or wounded people to be her friends and former lovers.

I mention only BPD because it is but one type of disorder which rational, kind people have little impact on. Love is not enough in such cases, Knowledge of the working dynamics of the disease are necessary in order to help someone effect useful changes, and such specialized knowledge is the province of the professional psychotherapist. If this is your profession, you can surely have 'pro bono' (for free) clients, but it IS a livelihood after all. People don't pay for my caring, they pay for my time. There is only so much time in life, and it is precious! One also doesn't have to be 'psycho-the-rapist' when it comes to taking payment, but one is forced to have 'competative rates' with other therapists. If one charges too little, people think you're a newbie, you're not very good or not very sure of yourself, and lastly, if one is paying a significant fee, one tends to take each therapy minute very seriously. I have found that offering cut-rate prices ill-effects the efforts made by clients - just as the literature suggests.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3634728 - 01/16/05 01:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes my mother has BP2D, which is a very diffcult illness to cure, as the patient will continue in denial even if the whole family has confronted her and told her 'face-2-face' that she is illl and needs help. Nothing has worked with my mother except complete calm and kindness, this is the only method that gets through with her, if we are confrontational, there is a confrontation response.

My mother sounds a little like your wife in the way theat she hid her symtoms up until marriage. My Dad tells me that 'the woman you see now is not the woman i married, i dont know who she is?" which is quite true, because my mother is definely not the same person she was even five years ago, its like she's sometimes replaced by a demon, who continually rationalizes her drinking and manic epesodes, if you confront her about this, the demon will come out and eat you!

I have been chased by her with knives, windows smashed, been made homeless (changed the locks), and had continuous threataning phonecalls as well as having property stolen to fuel her drink habbit!

My mother has also cheated on my father and slept around considerably with old boyfriends, and aquaintences who are abusive drunks, and generally at the same level as her mentalilty!

She has only recently come round to the idea (in the past few months' that she has a problem) and has seen 2 psycyatrists in that time, none of which has helped. The only help she has had that has had any effect on her whatsoever is kindess, compassion, patience, and perserverance!

So saying confrontation is the way to go seems to be the opposite in my case. I agree that you should make a living, but have you seen the sort of prices people in your profession charge! There completely outragous. Free sessions mean that people know that you not their to rob them, and that you do really care! Dont you think this sort of connection would make it easier for clients to make progress, for if they dont trust you then what kind of progress can be made? Maybe a donation scheme would be better?


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Edited by Sinbad (01/16/05 01:30 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: Sinbad]
    #3634807 - 01/16/05 01:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I AM sorry to hear that your Mom and my ex share the same demon. I acquiesced for years to the irregular emotional demands of the woman til I developed Dependent Personality Disorder myself (now entirely in remission). I also had frequent migraine headaches, which I eventually discovered were triggered by the emotion of resentment. Whenever I stood up to her over-reactions, I received basic respect for two or three days. I really only began to become fairly expert in this disorder after I divorced her (she became severely alcoholic and then had an affair with a petty criminal on one of her own vacations - last straw). Pathological lying, stealing from me. Scott Peck in his book 'People of the Lie,' in which he uses the old nomenclature for BPD ('Ambulatory Schizophrenia'), said that if there was ever gonna be a clinical diagnosis for evil, it would be THIS disorder. Glen Close portrayed BPD in 'Fatal Attraction,' and Diane Keaton did in 'Looking for Mr. Goodbar.' I work with an adolescent BPD kid now.

Private psychotherapy practice in the US is very very difficult because of managed care. One must do lots of volume. I got licensed in a discipline other than psychology or social work or psychiatry, and managed care won't include out discipline (mental health counseling) on their provider lists, so no one knows to come to us. I was forced to seek employment in the school system - the 4th largest in the US, where I could employ my skills in a salaried position. I still see private clients, but at 1/3 less than most everyone else because it is an avocation, not a full-time practice. I offer FREE face-to-face consultations, which is unheard of. Usually people then go ahead with treatment, but hypnotherapy treatment usually works in 2-3 sessions, so I no longer see people twice a month for a year or more - no one can afford the out-of-the-pocket expense even at a lesser fee. Only government funded clinics can work on a sliding scale - "donations."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineAldous
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: Sinbad]
    #3635387 - 01/16/05 05:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

While the article makes a few good points, it is severely flawed in some ways as well.

First, it hardly seems to make a distinction between different professions altogether. Just a word of explanation about that, what I'm saying goes for most European countries, and I guess it's not much different elsewhere (correct me if I'm wrong).
A psychiatrist is a medical doctor who later specialized in psychiatry, the study of the brain, the human behavior and associated malfunctions. They're the ones who run mental institutions and give neuroleptics to psychotics.
A psychoanalyst is any person who has undergone a formative psychoanalysis themselves and a basic course in psychoanalysis. They're the 'blank wall' mentioned above, they're the people on whose couch other people lie crying (or trying to). There are several 'schools' of psychoanalysis, of which the most famous are the Freudian and the Jungian (there's also Lacan in France). These people aren't required to have any university degree, the training is mainly unofficial.
A psychologist is a psychology graduate who works in the field of psychology, which is very vast. They can work for corporations, hospitals, social services, etc. or be self-employed as counselors.
A psychotherapist is any person who places a sign at their door saying they are one. No training is required, just go about the job and make people tell you their problems. However, they almost always have informal training in several fields. Like psychologists (usually), they're no 'blank walls': sometimes they do as much talking as the patients.

Basically, the article is right: no college degree guarantees anything about one's abilities to help people with mental and/or personal problems.
Mainstream psychiatry seems to lack a consistent model to explain mental and brain disorders. What they mainly do is suppress the symptoms with narcoleptics. Minor successes, however, should not be denied, but are nothing to be proud of.
Psychoanalysis seems very long and expensive for the results it seems to yield. However, some people claim it changed their life, and since I've never been psychoanalysed, who am I to judge them? The following quote from the article seems to fit mostly people engaged in psychoanalysis: "Saying that psychotherapy does not work is like saying that prostitution does not work; those enjoying the benefits of these personal transactions will continue doing so, regardless of what the experts and researchers have to say."
Psychology studies are a general and pretty vague amalgam of different things that are known or assumed about the human mind. The capacity to help people is more dependent on the personality of the counselor than on this kind of knowledge, but said knowledge is not to be dismissed as irrelevant or useless.
Also, generalizing about therapy and therapists is a big mistake, not only because this is such a personal matter, but also because there are so many different types of therapy (behavioral, Gestalt, transpersonal, name it...) that you just can't say anything about "therapy" or "therapists".

I don't agree at all with the statement that friends or relatives do a better job than therapists. While this can be the case, a therapist has a few advantages. First, you have to have extremely good friends or incredibly close relatives if you want to tell them about very delicate and/or embarrassing problems. It's also better to talk to a complete stranger to get an outside view of things. If you have friends of relatives close and competent enough to do the job, you're very lucky, go for it.

But mainly, the article is right. It all depends more on personality and competence in human relations (which probably cannot be taught) than on degrees. I personally would distrust a rich and successful therapist who boasts scores of degrees and is obviously more into his career than into his patients. Engaging in therapy is a very personal thing you should only do with a person you fully trust and feel at ease with.

My personal experience with therapists is mainly positive, especially with one particular person, who helped my girlfriend and me save a very endangered relationship through joint and individual counseling. She fitted us very well, and that's why it worked out so fine. She's also the one who indirectly oriented me toward my shamanic experiences. We saw her for about a year and then quit going because the problem was solved, so the above analogy with prostitution doesn't apply here.
I confess I also saw two other therapists I ran away from. So the matter is basically about a mix of (subjective) competence and personal compatibility.

Just one last remark before you fall asleep:
"There is hardly any scientific evidence that psychotherapy for alcoholism or any other condition helps anyone."
This is such a stupid remark, since no science can claim to cure alcoholism (or any other addiction for that matter). The success rates are exceedingly low, and psychotherapy is not the only discipline that fails here. Mainstream medicine is as incompetent in that field.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: Sinbad]
    #3635727 - 01/16/05 07:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If it were my mother, I'd send here to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting before I sent her to a psychiatrist. Drinking may be the cause, not the effect.
My dad is a lot like you describe (bar the knives and the stealing), but his problems are due to a mix of midlife crisis, drinking and good ole stress.

On the link you provided, I'm unsure what to think. I've read most of the other pamphlets on the site, but they all seem to say nothing can be/has been proven in psychiatry. I think that a lot of 'disorders' might not be biological in nature, but on the other hand there's more to the psyche than habits and self esteem alone.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: Aldous]
    #3637079 - 01/17/05 12:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Your info is seriously off. Gone are the days when anyone could hang up a shingle and call themselves a Psychotherpist. Psychotherapy is a deeper treatment than counseling, and can be performed by a number of disciplines: psychiatry, psychology, mental health counseling. clinical social work, psychiatric nursing, pastoral counseling, marriage and family therapy to name the major ones in the US. ALL are regulated, requiring certification or licensure, pre- and post-grad internships and Masters or Doctoral degrees. Analytical schools are specialties that require one to be certified or licensed under one of these other disciplines in order to practice in every state in the US.

Not all mental disorders are helped by therapy. Many Obsessive-Compulsives will not seek help as part of their condition. Personality disorders are trait disorders, not state disorders. People will always be a certain way, but the more off-the-chain symptoms may be mellowed by therapy. Alcoholics Anonymous DOES work, and is based on a 12-step model very Yogic in nature that was designed by Bill W. after his meeting with C.G. Jung, and then several LSD therapy sessions, because Jung prescribed religious experience as curative!

BTW, expectation plays a huge role in the outcome of therapy. So does credibility. I can teach a 12 year old to hypnotize someone exactly as I do, but the subject is gonna scoff at and reject the kid. Meanwhile, they'll sit in my consulting room lined with books, diplomas on the wall, and the 'setting' will meet their 'set' of expectations. Remember, all of Life is a trip.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3637128 - 01/17/05 12:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'm curious about this hypnotize business.. I once saw a 'professional' hypnotist perform an act.. he called 15 random crowd members and sat them on the stage.. He said a few words about focus or something, and then established they would be hypnotized by the sound of his voice and the snap of his finger.. One by one he went down the line snapping his fingers and these people instantly went into a hypnotized state.. It only took him under two minutes to set it up.. Can you really hypnotize someone that fast with this method?
  He then told them to perform certain actions while hypnotized, he told them they could snap out of the state any time they wished. He asked them to do stuff from dance crazy to sing their favorite song, and very dramatically these people did it with full out emotions.. It was a :lol: and very entertaining performance.

He had flyers and I checked out the website and apparently this guy travels around doing these shows for a living.. It was hard to believe these people would do crazy and embarrassing acts while hypnotized very fast without it possibly being a hoax.. Maybe he has the set of 15 travel with him?
Was hoping you may know something of this nature.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: 2Experimental]
    #3637262 - 01/17/05 01:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Set and Setting, expectation and credibility...stage hypnosis vs. clinical hypnosis. I have used Rapid and Instantaneous Inductions rarely, and the latter only once and that was after he'd already been hypnotized. Stage subjects are different. They want an excuse to behave outside their own normal parameters. You learn to pick subjects with experience (I don't do this BTW). My first instructor told us, if we wanted to do stage hypnosis, how to pick females - the ones who spend lots of time on their appearance, and happen to be in your audience - best pick's. I saw stage hypnosis with peers when I was in junior high school, and a famous X-rated hypnotist when I was in college in NY. It doesn't take much to get very willing people to become the center of attention. It is quite another story to get someone to go back to childhood and relive or revivify the trauma that has been causing symptoms for 20 or 30 years in order to release its hold in the subconscious. A very real psychic exorcism.


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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3637300 - 01/17/05 01:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Oh yes, I see the clear distinction between the two. I was not trying to say they were the same, just see if it was possible.. Makes sense the way you say it.
I'd imagine you would have to be much more careful and knowledgeable about the way you went about entering a person into a hypnotic state and retrieving information, if you were dealing with hard to deal with subjects.
I wonder how many hypnotists hold back things a person might have said during a hypnotic state because they felt it would be for the patients benefit? I bet those sessions could get pretty crazy with some people.. That has got to be a big burden upon the guider of the session. I mean what if someone confessed a murder- It could get pretty deep.

Also, what are your thoughts on self hypnosis and its benefits- I read a book and it talked about how people were curing things like nicotine addiction and other bad habits with self hypnosis methods. I pretty much turned the idea down on the basis that unless I was well trained in hypnotism I should not dabble in self practice.


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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3637775 - 01/17/05 06:22 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Your info is seriously off.


All right, consider I wasn't talking about the US situation. But it is the case in many European countries.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: Aldous]
    #3638674 - 01/17/05 01:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Don't they sue people in non-US countries?
Much of what you said WAS the state of things 30 years ago here.


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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: 2Experimental]
    #3638683 - 01/17/05 01:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The Chevreul Pendulum is used to induce self-hypnosis. Little harm can be done be such experimentation if the goal is to imbed positive suggestions in the subconscious.

Other practices like Ouija, which merely open the subconscious up, making it receptive to god-knows-what, CAN be dangerous.


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Re: The Case Against Psycotherapy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3639617 - 01/17/05 05:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What exactly would they sue them for?

Besides, it's a typical American national hobby to sue anyone for anything. Nowhere else in the world would you be paid out fortunes for being stupid enough to burn yourself with hot food or to eat razorblades whose package didn't say "Don't eat!"  :frown:

There are moves toward regulation in some countries (France, maybe others). But since I agree degrees don't make a therapist, I don't think it's crucial.


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