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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Nag Hammadi Library was Unearthed by Cannibals!!! [Re: dorkus]
    #3634583 - 01/16/05 10:21 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Good deal.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Nag Hammadi Library was Unearthed by Cannibals!!! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3636197 - 01/16/05 07:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Hi Markos,

The metaphysical structure of reality described by the church in its dogmas only makes sense if all the pieces are in the right place. While questioning the validity of the dogmatic big picture in a search for the truth can be beneficial, its important to first have a clear understanding of what the church is saying. Therefore I would like to clear up a few things.

Quote:

Hypostatic Union - "Una Substantia, Tres Personas" - more speculative theology on a Triune Godhead - completely unknown to Y'shua ben Miriam and His friends, and to Jewish theology in general.




The Hypostatic Union does not refer to the unity of the three persons in the God Head. It is a phrase used to describe the two natures of the one person, Jesus.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Hypostatic Union

A theological term used with reference to the Incarnation to express the revealed truth that in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human. Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation. Hence it came to be used by the Greek philosophers to denote reality as distinguished from appearances (Aristotle, "Mund.", IV, 21). It occurs also in St. Paul's Epistles (II Cor., ix, 4; xi, 17; Heb., i, 3:iii, 14), but not in the sense of person. Previous to the Council of Nic?a (325) hypostasis was synonymous with ousia, and even St. Augustine (De Trin., V, 8) avers that he sees no difference between them. The distinction in fact was brought about gradually in the course of the controversies to which the Christological heresies gave rise, and was definitively established by the Council of Chalcedon (451), which declared that in Christ the two natures, each retaining its own properties, are united in one subsistence and one person (eis en prosopon kai mian hpostasin) (Denzinger, ed. Bannwart, 148). They are not joined in a moral or accidental union (Nestorius), nor commingled (Eutyches), and nevertheless they are substantially united.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start....htm&e=8092



Quote:

Immaculate Conception - the doctrine that Miriam, mother of Y'shua, was herself born from a virgin.




The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception does not imply that Mary was born of a virgin. She was conceived in the normal natural way, but came into being free from original sin by a special grace.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Immaculate Conception
THE DOCTRINE

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.

". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.

". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.

". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Quote:

Simple...sexual intercourse which transmits the Original Sin (St. Augustine's doctrine)




Because original sin effects all of humanity (Mary and Jesus excluded), the defect is propagated when humanity is propagated. However, sexual intercourse is not the only means of propagation of the species, and therefore cannot be said to be responsible for the transmission of original sin; test tube babies and clones would also be subject to original sin. This is important because many in the past have considered sex to be inherently sinful, and this is not the case.

Trinity - There is evidence for the trinity in the New Testement, especially the Gosple of John, but I'm not a biblical scholar and you have questioned the validity of this gosple so I wont go into that here.

Resurrection of the Body - There are many places in the scripture where Jesus was seen bodily after the resurrection. The most note worthy is the scene where he appears to St. Thomas the Apostle and tells him to place his fingers in the holes in his hands, and to place his hand into the wound in his side. This of course is scripture which has been called into question.


Quote:

So, then, mistakes upon mistakes have been the building blocks of the entire history of the New Testament writings and the consequent traditions.





While this may be true, it also appears likely that many mistakes have been made in individual understandings of what the church truely teaches about the person of Jesus and the nature of his mission on earth. These individual mistakes in percieving the picture of metaphysical reality painted by the church could certainly make it appear to be invalid.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Nag Hammadi Library was Unearthed by Cannibals!!! [Re: shroomydan]
    #3636994 - 01/16/05 10:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the elaboration and correction of immaculate conception details. The theology of conception changed repeatedly in history. I recommend 'Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven' as one interesting source. It is ALL constructed by the vain imaginings of men in order to preserve a theology with a political agenda. The amazing extrapolations of theological ideas used to fascinate me - how Augustine wrote double volumes on Tertullian's word 'Trinity' for example. You can read backwards a second century concept into John, or even into Genesis using the word 'Elohim,' a Name of GOD with a plural meaning, to come up with a justification for Trinitarian thought. Now, mind you, I still pray formulaically in the Names of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit/Sophia - slight difference, but Trinitarian. However, the greatest mystical Doctor of East or West, Pseudo-Dionysus spoke of "The Superessential Godhead" being ONE. Father, Son/Logos, Holy Spirit are three Anglicized names of GOD. Hebrew theology has others: Jah, YHVH (the unpronounceable Tetragrammaton), El, Elohim, El Shaddai, Tzabaoth, Adonai (Lord), to name a few. Kabbalism speaks of Ain Sof Aur, Ain Soph, Ain (The Limitless Light, The Limitless, " ? " ). Connect the 'sacred dots' they did, like the Kabbalist did with the 10 spheres of the Godhead - the upper 3 representing the Holy Christian Trinity to Christian Kabbalists. I love models. The ancients loved models. Models are what they are, albeit Sacred models. If one could utter the Sound that is a True Name of GOD, GOD would BE in that sound. Solomon was said in legend to pronounce the Tetragrammaton and did so to command demons to build his Temple since metal tools were not to be used to cut the stone.

I prefer the Hebrew notion of Yetzer Hara - the evil inclination - over Original Sin. I reject Original Sin as reflective of Humankind's nature. Augustine invented it. But, minimize our supposed complete depravity due to Original Sin and it marginalizes the need for Christ as savior. Even the words of Jesus allegedly say "I have come not for the righteous, but for the sinners," but Church doctrine denied salvation outside the Sacrament-monopolizing Church. All the OT Patriarchs and Prophets were in 'Limbo' until "...He descended into Hell.." to liberated the OT good guys. How insulting to the progenitor religion of Catholicism - Judaism. Brilliant intellectual game playing, legalism, pseudo-reliance on canonical scripture, which of course was chosen by selected 'church fathers,' and not others.

There may be no salvation outside of Christ (we watched the film 'Luther' tonite), the Way, the Tao, Tiphereth, Atman, Wisdom-Compassion (Christian, Chinese, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist Names for the Compassion that is Christ, respectively) - but salvation is available in my world-view outside of the Roman Catholic Church.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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