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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: dorkus]
    #3634341 - 01/16/05 06:48 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Hey man, some people in this forum claim to be elite, but im sure they dont have any telepathic abilites, or any kind of spiritual realizations, i certainly dont have anything of the sort.

Nobody has got enlightenment, not even the supposidly enlightened claim to have enlightenment.

The converstaions in your head are just thoughts, try not to pay to much attention to them, and take them with a pinch of humour. I get these thoughts, from time to time, but really they are just thoughts!
If you fight against them i can gaurantee that they will just get worse, so try to laugh at them (not out loud of course), and notice there silliness!

Reading too much spiritual literature is not a good when smoking cannabis, or whilst your mental state isnt stable, beleive me ive been their. It fills your mind with philosophies and idea's way beyond  conventional reality which is where we need to be.

I know your view seems to be the opposite at the moment, but try to  think positive!

You going to university soon, hey so am i in september  :smile:, anything that gets us out there interacting with others is great, then you'll see that everybody certainly is'nt enlightened, nor anywhere near that point. And in actauliy, the very fact that you are interested in such spiritual matters means your closer to that path than they are. Most people never give spirituality a second thought!

You really dont have anything to worry about, You have recognised your problems and sought help, which is really excellent :grin:. If your on medication then your moods should start to level out slowly. Your on the road to recovery my friend fear not.

If you ever need anything, Just PM me, im almost always around this forum!


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Edited by Sinbad (01/16/05 06:53 AM)

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Invisibledorkus
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: the breaking apart of reality. *DELETED* [Re: Sinbad]
    #3634460 - 01/16/05 08:45 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by dorkus

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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: dorkus]
    #3634526 - 01/16/05 09:50 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Salvia does rip apart reality, which can be seen as a temporary psycosis. Shamans in South America use this plant in there traditional ceremonies, but be warned, they have spirit protectors to make sure they dont venture to far into the void and lose their awareness!

We westerners have no such protectors, so its as if we are wandering from the campfire in the night without a torch, anything could happen and its very easy to get lost and lose sight of the campfire!

So yes it is very scary to read such reports, i personally have had a few experinces with salvia that could be related to a state of server mental detachement that wasnt particulaly helpful or beneficial.

I feel that in stopping cannabis you will be cutting your problems in half. Its strange that you seem to be describing the exact same states and experiences that i went through with my psycosis.

All i can advise you is to try as much as possible to relax,  and gradually come more and more back to a conventional reality. Focus on the mundane as much as possible, such as washing the dishes, hovering the house/flat, making food. And just enjoy the simple things in life with a sense of humour.

Knowone is waiting for you to reach enlightenment, Nor should this be your focus just yet! As i said before if we think of enlightenment as a seed, that needs soil, sunlight, and water. Then the breaking apart of conventional reality is like washing away the soil. the seed cannot grow! Your first step should be to get active! Get back into normal routines of mundainity. Start laying that soil again.

People generally think that enlightenment is some great, mystical experience. Like an inexplainable orgasmic climax. But this is just a misunderstanding. Enlightenment is very ordinary, very simple, and extremely mundane! All complex philosphies are just eloborations and are completely unnessarray and are genrally quite contradictory to our everyday experince!

Basically all these mystical experiences you have been having are most certainly symptoms of psycosis. As imm sure you have already recognised them as such!

I know ive been their, you would be suprised at how similar our experiences actually are! I also thought i could control the weather, and i once sat on the toilet for 6 hours waiting for my family to burst in and congratulate me on getting enlightenment!  :crazy:  :laugh:

These were just symtoms of psycosis, and had nothing to do with enlightenment. And yes i do belive that spacedragon is a very disturbed individual!

I was so lucky that my parents took me to the doctor and got me on medication. Once the medication kicked in i was back on the road to mundainity and was their quicker than you think.  :smile:

Then when i back i started to look for a spiritual path. When the soil was layed and the right circumstance were present!

For now why not try to put aside your pursuit and concentrate on the mundane!

I dont believe you to be far gone at all, as your sense of humour about the whole affair seems to shine through quite brightly. It is quite humourous, and im sorry if i have been a little serious. I love the way you tell your experience, it really put a smile back on my face, and now i feel i can laugh at mine too.  :grin: :laugh:

Good Luck to you man!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,207
Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: Sinbad]
    #3634545 - 01/16/05 09:59 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

in the throes of salvia, your conscious rider (the 3 second blip at the tip of experiencing) accesses not only the current gestalt moment, but the very slowly fading previous gestalts.

I call it frame stacking. It can be a joy or a drag.
move your head and all positions still apply like a multi headed Cerberus. (e.g. my tiny head is a pic of me watching the news and trying to see it less seriously - I ended up seeing both the bad news and the lighter sides of things and myself)

there is no significance to the persisting layers except for set and setting (and what it may mean to you), but the results of the overlay of several frames (gestalts) takes on a new reality.

the real cause is slower fading of gestalt experience, the net result is a kind of experiential overload or layering at least.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3634562 - 01/16/05 10:09 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

And how is this state beneficial?

Maybe this is your experience of Salvia, but each individual is different, to catagorize an unpredicatble substance in the framework of your own experience and associate that withim the context of all individuals experiences is at best foolhardy and at worst dangerous.

Salvia space is different for everyone. If you wander without a torch away from the campfire, then what you discover when you get lost is purley the indviduals experience. You cannot say if you wander away from the campfire you can expect this and this and this to be your experience. This is not so!


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Edited by Sinbad (01/16/05 11:33 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: Sinbad]
    #3634841 - 01/16/05 12:07 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
And how is this state beneficial?



the experience is quite short lived and can be very beneficial. many of the problems that can be experienced in life are very hard to understand; seeing the big picture is very hard.

when several gestalts fit in mind at the same time, and if you can accommodate them without being frantic (this is key), then you can see new relationships between familiar things that are normally hidden.

this big picture view (multiple picture view) can be very inspiring, it can help you find lost things, and can help resolve real issues.

a simmilar benefit will come from the natural frame stacking which arises in Jhanas from meditation. to be more specific would be to fall into the trap of suggesting that a general case applied to each specific case; only the underlying mechanism applies. it applies whether understood intellectually or not.

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Maybe this is your experience of Salvia, but each individual is different, to catagorize an unpredicatble substance in the framework of your own experience and associate that withim the context of all individuals experiences is at best foolhardy and at worst dangerous.




I am talking about the common nature of all salvia experiences - like the underlying genotype to the expressed phenotype. Set and setting are the index and chapters of the experience, what I am describing is the language of mind inwhich these experiences are written - it is universal.

Quote:

Sinbad said:
You cannot say if you wander away from the campfire you can expect this and this and this to be your experience. This is not so!




my description of "the slower dissipation of full gestalts of experience, as the basic common effect of salvia (and other psychedellics as well - each to varying degree)", has helped many salvianauts (and psychonauts) understand and enjoy their experiences without fear. I am not discounting the specificity of anyone's particular illusions or realizations.


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OfflineInnerBeing
Yakuza Boss

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 413
Loc: Chinatown
Last seen: 5 months, 4 days
Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: Sinbad]
    #3634843 - 01/16/05 12:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I am happy to hear that you are getting help. That is a hard thing to do....
...Enlightenment can wait for another lifetime. We all have plenty of time, brother, and I sure as hell aren't going to make any big progress in this lifetime.
In this pursuit of enlightenment we have to take real small steps towards our goal. If we just plug ourselves into the realization (by taking hallucinigens) it is like grabbing onto a set of powerlines and hoping to not get shocked. Enlightenment is a dangerous quest to be on and insanity is one aspect that is hard to avoid during the pursuit.
You seem generally concerned with becoming enlightened, if so there are many ways that you can do it without the use of powerful drugs. Here is a website that can get you started.. BuddhaNet
In this time that you have, why not just relax and meditate or try something different like yoga. Use today as an oppurtunity to become reborn, for reincarnation is always just minutes away. Think yourself into calm, healthy person. You can do this and you have allot of friends that can help you. Send me a PM if you ever need to talk to someone. Meanwhile....I will be burning some insense and lighting some candles on my shrine for you.


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Kiss the ring Bitch!


Edited by InnerBeing (01/16/05 12:10 PM)

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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3634884 - 01/16/05 12:25 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

As far as i know there are no such ideas of frame stacking within the jhanas, They are specifc medatative experiences, that arise from meditative causes created in ones mind stream from the very act of meditating in a certain way.

These experiences are the same for all practtioners becuase they're all pointing at the same source. The metaphorical campfire as the focus of ones meditation.

I am making the suggestion not to experiment with this substance without a shaman or a guide becuase the very nature of these substances is only known by one possesing such knowlege gained through implimenting precise techniques layed out by those shamans.

In the recreational and potentially dangerous use of these substances of course on can have similar experiences to others, but the very uncertainty and limitless possiblilities of what one can encounter illiminates any benefit that may transpire.

If you are such a shaman that can hand an explorer a torch of certainty, and guide one through the myriad of experiences and away from danger, then i bow at your feet!

There is no common nature to the salvia experience other than the Salvia Space that it thrusts one into. After speaking with many people i have to conclude that this is the case!

If you can help other psyconauts navigate through the darkness and lead them to knowlege of other worldy dimensions, then this is fine. But suggesting a commonality between all experience other than the space on finds oneself in is a delusion!


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OfflineInnerBeing
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Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 413
Loc: Chinatown
Last seen: 5 months, 4 days
Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: dorkus]
    #3634885 - 01/16/05 12:25 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
When I finally returned home to my apartment, the phone was ringing. Eagerly I picked it up, and it was the Norwegian national phone-company offering to re-direct my phone-traffic and bills.



I wish this would happen to me....get all bills and phonecalls redirected.....whew!


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Kiss the ring Bitch!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,207
Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: Sinbad]
    #3635004 - 01/16/05 01:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
As far as i know there are no such ideas of frame stacking within the jhanas, They are specifc medatative experiences, that arise from meditative causes created in ones mind stream from the very act of meditating in a certain way.

These experiences are the same for all practtioners becuase they're all pointing at the same source. The metaphorical campfire as the focus of ones meditation.





if you examine abhidhamma, not an easy task - it is an available buddhist book ( http://tinyurl.com/65zzq - http://tinyurl.com/5fa92 - a chart is here http://tinyurl.com/43ksz )- you will learn abou the flow of citta in normal mind states and in jhanas - you still may not understand what you read until you experience them or meditate with consciousness as the object of attention (such as in vipassana).

chackric meditations have a type of guided visualization, and so there is an expected range of visionary results (you are right about that) - this is as expected since what is being stacked is frames of concentrated energy (the meditation is "set and setting")- after initial concentration you will note that little needs to be added to the effort since a stack has been formed of concentrating, if you wander you can start from scratch again etc.

you put in such efforts that when stacked combine to provide a good sustainable meditation session. I kinda thought you knew that since you are teaching meditation in a different thread, and not doing a bad job of it.

in any case the term 'stack' is my own but it relates to bhavanga in abhidhamma or duration. I have pulled in the word "gestalt" from psychology to act with "frame" in place of the abhidhamma term citta.

there is no sense trying to teach all of abhidhamma to the shroomery, but a part of it is valuable to take intellectual insights from, and these very simple things may help in a cognitive insight when besaged.

anyway abhidhamma is a pretty good approximation of what we are now learning in neuro psychology, and as a "science" it was derived strictly through the tool of insight meditation long before the printing press.

aside from being couched in a doctrinal voice from a meditative viewpoint you can shake it and winnow out quite a bit of good practical consciousness theory in it.


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OfflineInnerBeing
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Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 413
Loc: Chinatown
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Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3635072 - 01/16/05 01:30 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

The meaning of life is 42. That is the exact meaning. You can stop searching and realize that 42 is what you have been looking for all this time.


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Kiss the ring Bitch!


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3635113 - 01/16/05 01:46 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

What difference does it make if "reality" really exists outside our minds? It doesn't affect our life at all, and when we die either all will be revealed or we'll not be there to worry about it.

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OfflineInnerBeing
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Registered: 12/07/04
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Loc: Chinatown
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My breaking of reality. [Re: dorkus]
    #3635153 - 01/16/05 02:00 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Well,
In the virtues of honesty and openness I have decided to write about a subject that can produce a wide array of emotions in my mind. Those emotions being, shame, sadness, regret, fear, anger, and panic, are all powerful enough to send me straight into tears. So I have to take my time as I write this tale, because I don't want emotion to get the best of me. If you are interested in reading this, please continue, but I will warn all of those who aren't sure that this is a long and probably a boring story to you, so you may just want to stop here. If you do continue reading, please give my story its due, because I feel that my life deserves that. So let it begin....
My name is Jack, and I for some reason am only twenty-five years old. I am not too sure how my total age added up to that number, especially when I take into account all of my life experience, but that is all that can label my experience and age:25.
I am a combat veteran of the United States Marine Corps, and I served on many tours overseas to include Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia and the like. After my last tour was up, I was discharge and I decided to make California my home.
For about two years I went to school, worked at a low paying job, and regretted being out of the Marines. It seemed like that four years served in the military was a big waste of time. Then in December 2003, I suddenly got scared of something that I still can't put my finger on. I could not sleep at night, I heard noises out of my window...dogs barking, windows breaking, footsteps. I would never sleep...I would just keep my eyes open and try to focus on the noises to see where they were coming from. I thought for sure that someone was after me. I didn't let the nights disturb my days but a different type of fear was begining to take over me. I began to obssess about money. I didn't have enough. I have a girlfriend that I want to marry, I need a house, a new car...something to show for this wasted life. For some reason I went hysterical over this pursuit of money, and decided that the answer to my problem would be to sell E. I did that behind my girlfriend's back for many weeks, but I ate more of the E than I sold. I wasn't sleeping, wasn't eating...stopped working and I stopped going to school.
One night, as I was rolling, I sat behind my computer to do some writing and I told myself that I am going to find the reason why things are so fucked up in this world. I wrote for six hours straight...took more E to stay awake and when I couldn't write anymore....I sent these writings to everyone on my addressbook (100+ addresses) I chuckled to myself when I realized that wasn't a good idea.
Suddenly I started to black out, and hallucinate strongly...not common side effects of ecstasy. I began to panic so I called an ambulance, but when they took me away I felt like I had been captured by that army of people who had been creeping around my neighborhood at night, breaking windows, and making the dogs bark. I began to fight against the paramedics, I started swinging for my life. I took a few of those bastards down before they pumped my veins full of benzos.
When my girlfriend came to see me. all hell broke loose. I saw that all too familiar look of dissappointment on her face,and I thought to myself how many times have I seen that before. Thinking of the many other times that I had dissappointed her....I began to sob, I started to cry so hard....my body held itself in the fetal position and nobody was able to release me from my position, I lost control of my body. All of my muscles went stiff. I couldn't move. I felt every ounce of pain, loss, fear, and anger come bellowing out of my screaming mouth. I was ready to have a heartattack and die. I began to panic so bad that I almost swallowed my own tongue so the doctors had to restrain me and give me a larger benzo shot to keep me stable and calm.
At the hospital, I was interrogated by a group of doctor's as to why I was there. Under the influence of the benzo, I poured my heart out about all my problems...about what was wrong with me....about the war.....about my dead friends over in iraq and afghanistan. I can't remember exactly what was said because I don't have the report with me right now. I went on for about an hour about all this and they decided that I should spend a few days in the hospital. I surrendered to their decidsion, but the next morning I escaped from the hospital because I thought that they were holding me against my will. This is when the real mania set in. I feared that the government heard me tell some stories that I wasn't supposed to tell when I spoke with the doctors. I thought for sure that someone would be after me.
I took refuge at my Buddhist temple where they took great care of me with tibetan foods and soups and prayers, but after a day or two....I thought that they were keeping me hostage too. I called the police on them. The police came to come get me, but I took one look at the cop and I realized that he was one of them. Needless to say my story started to change because I was not about to go with the cop. A private doctor who had been assisting me at the temple, got permission from my girlfriend to medicate me, and I was then knocked out and taken to the veterans hospital in santa monica. It was there that I made my full recovery. The morning was a blistering bright one.
For months after....I was manic, but thankfully the diagnosis was not bipolar disorder. My diagnosis was acute post traumatic stress disorder based upon my wartime experiences. I now go to therapy ever week under the guidance of an amazing doctor and I take medication so I can at least be somewhat happy about life.
Moral of the story is.....take care of yourself. If you start to think that you have secrets that you need to hide from the government and you are not in the CIA, go and see a psychiatrists so that you can get your life back in order
I am not going to proof read this shit...good luck


--------------------
Kiss the ring Bitch!


Edited by InnerBeing (01/16/05 03:38 PM)

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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
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Re: the breaking apart of reality. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3637669 - 01/17/05 02:25 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Nope sorry their are no ideas of frame stacking however much you want to work it into the theme of mediation practice. Such experiences (not only visionary) arise from more profound levels of conectration not from any stacking of frames of conecntration!

Your working in to much psycological bable (concious theory) into the mix, and confusing the practice with your view. I think what you call 'stacking' maybe just the act of projecting experience onto the mediataion practice. This is no good when trying to progress and just increases ones expectations which will lead to much dissapointment and dissillusionment.


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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
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Re: My breaking of reality. [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3637676 - 01/17/05 02:33 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Thats intense man. Thanks for sharing!  :smile:

Immense Respect to you!


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OfflineInnerBeing
Yakuza Boss

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 413
Loc: Chinatown
Last seen: 5 months, 4 days
Re: My breaking of reality. [Re: Sinbad]
    #3638509 - 01/17/05 11:05 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the replys everyone. I wasn't trying to get any attention by writing out my story, I just wanted to point out that many of us had experiences like Thomas, so there is nothing for him to be afraid or ashamed of. If other people have gotten through it then so can we.


--------------------
Kiss the ring Bitch!


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