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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Christian website on evolution
    #3626359 - 01/13/05 11:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

web page

Evolution teaches that every living thing has a "common ancestor", and that non-living matter produced living matter... Evolution teaches that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old, and that the universe may be 16 billion years old or older. A very, very, very old earth is taught. Evolution also teaches that the "everything is getting better", and that people are getting smarter and smarter, in direct contrast to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, Entropy.

Hard to even start a discussion when the ignorance is so overwhelming as to get two major points wrong in one short paragraph.

Education, education, education...and a pinch of logic might help.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Swami]
    #3626371 - 01/13/05 11:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Most Christians are pretty ignorant, and I say that as a Christian. Not all Christians are like that though.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: z@z.com]
    #3626388 - 01/14/05 12:02 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

One person making a mistake or two may be understandable, but a website that hosts hundreds of posts everyday and not one thought to correct this? Very scary to this reader.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Swami]
    #3626412 - 01/14/05 12:06 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The majority of America doesnt know who won the civil war.
People are stupid and will continue to hold up to their narrow minded beliefs.

Ignorance is bliss though.

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OfflineInnerBeing
Yakuza Boss

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 413
Loc: Chinatown
Last seen: 4 months, 3 days
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Swami]
    #3626413 - 01/14/05 12:06 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Swami is back?
Well, I don't know who you are but your leaving sure did raise a ruckus around here. Welcome back man.


--------------------
Kiss the ring Bitch!


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OfflineMrBump
Third prize is you're fired
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 4,263
Loc: Denver, Colorado
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Swami]
    #3626416 - 01/14/05 12:06 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

please explain whats wrong with their paragraph on evolution?

is it the something from nothing statemnet that bothers you?


--------------------
If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?

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OfflineInnerBeing
Yakuza Boss

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 413
Loc: Chinatown
Last seen: 4 months, 3 days
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3626421 - 01/14/05 12:07 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Everybody knows that America won the Civl War.


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Kiss the ring Bitch!


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3626441 - 01/14/05 12:12 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well, I don't know who you are but your leaving sure did raise a ruckus around here. Welcome back man.

Thank you. The ruckus was created by fabrications, bias and unequal and "special" application of the by-laws by the mods and admins. I was banned for "Swami-baiting". They made a special "rule" after-the-fact. The fair-minded intelligentsia here did not appreciate that and hence the ruckus.

*Swami dons custom-made mod-proof kevlar suit*


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineInnerBeing
Yakuza Boss

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 413
Loc: Chinatown
Last seen: 4 months, 3 days
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Swami]
    #3626454 - 01/14/05 12:14 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Like I said, I do not know who you are but I felt threatened by your banning. I thought we were afforded the liberties of free speech on this messageboard but I was shown that I am wrong. Anyhow, sorry for bashing your thread with an offtopic post.


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Kiss the ring Bitch!


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
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Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: MrBump]
    #3626478 - 01/14/05 12:17 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

thecornking said:
please explain whats wrong with their paragraph on evolution?




How about you tell us what's correct about that paragraph?

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: MrBump]
    #3626629 - 01/14/05 12:56 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

thecornking said:
please explain whats wrong with their paragraph on evolution?




I don't really see much wrong with that statement, but I see a lot wrong on the site.

EDIT: BTW I don't really care how God created the earth, but I believe that he did. Was it a literal 6 days? Is the earth 6000 years old or 45 billion? I don't really think it matters. I know God could have done it in 6 literal days and that is the important thing as far as I am concerned. You must also consider that God had the power to create things with the appearance of age. This is clearly shown when Jesus changed water into wine. (assuming you believe that of course)


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

Edited by z@z.com (01/14/05 12:59 AM)

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OfflineFrog
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Posts: 4,284
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Swami]
    #3626918 - 01/14/05 01:59 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
web page

Evolution teaches that every living thing has a "common ancestor", and that non-living matter produced living matter... Evolution teaches that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old, and that the universe may be 16 billion years old or older. A very, very, very old earth is taught. Evolution also teaches that the "everything is getting better", and that people are getting smarter and smarter, in direct contrast to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, Entropy.

Hard to even start a discussion when the ignorance is so overwhelming as to get two major points wrong in one short paragraph.

Education, education, education...and a pinch of logic might help.




If you go to that web page, you will find that there are different types of Christians with different types of beliefs in this area. Not just the one quoted by Swami.

And there are lots of ignorant people in this world. Not just Christians.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Frog]
    #3626932 - 01/14/05 02:01 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Educate the masses.


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 11 days
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Swami]
    #3627755 - 01/14/05 10:03 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Just taking a shot at this....

Quote:

Evolution teaches that every living thing has a "common ancestor"



Isn't that what Darwin hypothesized as well?

Quote:

and that non-living matter produced living matter...



What else could it be? That living matter produced the first living matter? That's nonsense

Quote:

Evolution teaches that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old, and that the universe may be 16 billion years old or older.



Not far, its actually theorized to be 5 billion and 15 billion

Quote:

Evolution also teaches that the "everything is getting better", and that people are getting smarter and smarter



Well sure why not? Wouldn't you agree that say every 100 years humans in general know alot more compared to the last century?

Quote:

in direct contrast to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, Entropy.




I can't make out the relation between the two...


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InvisiblePaou
Seeker

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Transcendence
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: exclusive58]
    #3627797 - 01/14/05 10:21 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Quote:

Evolution teaches that every living thing has a "common ancestor"



Isn't that what Darwin hypothesized as well?



I'm not so sure about that. It could be, but life also could have come about separately in several places. Considering it would be microscopic, single-celled organisms, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to think they could have came about simultaneously in many locations.

Quote:

Quote:

Evolution also teaches that the "everything is getting better", and that people are getting smarter and smarter



Well sure why not? Wouldn't you agree that say every 100 years humans in general know alot more compared to the last century?



"Better" assumes objective value, which is something which cannot be proven. Evolution teaches that life is changing, but change doesn't mean getting better. Also, intelligence is not about how much you know, but rather about how well you can figure things out.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Paou]
    #3628624 - 01/14/05 01:35 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Evolution teaches that every living thing has a "common ancestor"

Not every theory of evolution claims that every living thing came from one single ancestor. Most talk about a 'soup' that spawned many different types of organisms which were shaped through natural selection.

that non-living matter produced living matter...

What is living matter? I have yet to see a living atom...

Evolution teaches that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old, and that the universe may be 16 billion years old or older.

Actually, evolution doesn't teach this. The science used to determine these ages is very exact, very precise, and has been shown to be true through various independent means and methods. If the earth was only created 10 years ago, it was created to appear as if it were 4.5 billion years old.

A very, very, very old earth is taught.

In terms of astronomical ages, the earth is very, very, very young, not very, very, very old. Age is a very, very, very subjective concept.

Evolution also teaches that the "everything is getting better"

No it doesn't. Evolution teaches that modern day organisms evolved from different 'lower' organisms as directed by natural selection. Getting better has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, many branches of evolution have been pruned by nature because they yielded a poorer candidate for survival rather than a better one.

and that people are getting smarter and smarter

Again, this is a false understanding of the theory. If being smarter helps with the survival of a species, then yes, evolution through natural selection should encourage a species to become smarter. I fail to see how being smarter helps one human to reproduce where a not-so-smart person has trouble reproducing. My observations would be the opposite; the smarter people tend to have fewer children while the less educated (less intelligent?) seem to have more children.

in direct contrast to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, Entropy.

What exactly does Thermodynamics have to do with the theory of evolution. The definition of entropy is: a measure of the amount of energy in a system that is no longer available for doing work; entropy increases as matter and energy in the universe degrade to an ultimate state of inert uniformity. The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to heat and energy in the universe, not to randomness versus uniformity within any given system.


All this being said, there are a few 'flaws' with evolution as well:

1) we have never seen a living 'thing' spontaneously create itself. Not to say it can't happen, but we haven't seen it. In fact, we have been unable to create any 'living' organism from completly inert matter. There is currently research being done trying to do just this, create a living thing atom by atom, but so far it has been unsuccessful (at least when I researched it last).

2) we have never seen a species evolve into another species. We have observed the effects of natural selection within a species, but so far we have not seen anything new burst into being. Again, this isn't saying that it cannot happen, only that we have not observed it.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Frog]
    #3628638 - 01/14/05 01:40 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

> And there are lots of ignorant people in this world. Not just Christians.

Yes, but it seems to be only the Christians (and the followers of Islam) that seem to want to force the rest of the world to follow their beliefs.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisiblePaou
Seeker

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Transcendence
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Seuss]
    #3628646 - 01/14/05 01:43 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
2) we have never seen a species evolve into another species. We have observed the effects of natural selection within a species, but so far we have not seen anything new burst into being. Again, this isn't saying that it cannot happen, only that we have not observed it.



I'm not so sure about this. I don't have a source on this, so I could be wrong, but I think I remember hearing somewhere that macroevolution had been observed in bacteria in a lab setting.

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OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Seuss]
    #3629387 - 01/14/05 05:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to heat and energy in the universe, not to randomness versus uniformity within any given system.



As more information to allow survival gets incoded, entropy decreases, doesn't it?
Evolution doesn't oppose the laws of thermodynamics, life itself does.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Paou]
    #3629469 - 01/14/05 05:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

"Evolution also teaches that the "everything is getting better"
"Better" assumes objective value, which is something which cannot be proven. Evolution teaches that life is changing, but change doesn't mean getting better. Also, intelligence is not about how much you know, but rather about how well you can figure things out.




Wouldn't you consider it better that today we live longer than a century or ten ago? Isn't it better that a lot less people died in all the wars, massacres, slaughters and oppressions of the 20th century (total: 4126 million deaths) than in the 19th (total: 4330 million deaths) or before that?

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InvisiblePaou
Seeker

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 376
Loc: Transcendence
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: exclusive58]
    #3629639 - 01/14/05 06:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Quote:

"Evolution also teaches that the "everything is getting better"
"Better" assumes objective value, which is something which cannot be proven. Evolution teaches that life is changing, but change doesn't mean getting better. Also, intelligence is not about how much you know, but rather about how well you can figure things out.




Wouldn't you consider it better that today we live longer than a century or ten ago? Isn't it better that a lot less people died in all the wars, massacres, slaughters and oppressions of the 20th century (total: 4126 million deaths) than in the 19th (total: 4330 million deaths) or before that?



It doesn't matter if I consider it better because my opinion is subjective. Besides, I think you're looking at this from a very one-sided perspective. Some things seem to be better today, but other things have gotten worse. There is a much greater overpopulation problem today than there was 100 years ago, which means more famine and disease. Considering that the 20th century saw two world wars, the holocaust, the rise of fascism, communism, and Islamic dictatorships, I wouldn't exactly call that progress. Also, I'd be interested to see where you got those figures.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/12/99
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Seuss]
    #3629799 - 01/15/05 12:38 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> And there are lots of ignorant people in this world. Not just Christians.

Yes, but it seems to be only the Christians (and the followers of Islam) that seem to want to force the rest of the world to follow their beliefs.



Yup.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Sclorch]
    #3629851 - 01/15/05 12:53 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Islam is worse because they actually use physical force. Christians and Mormons just harass you alot and knock on your door.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3629912 - 01/15/05 01:13 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Islam is worse because they actually use physical force. Christians and Mormons just harass you alot and knock on your door.




Christians bomb abortion clinics.
Christians had multiple Crusades.
Christians (the Vatican) supported the holocaust.
Christians slaughtered Native Americans.
The list goes on...

Okay... you got me on the Mormons. But they're still new and haven't much power.

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Sclorch]
    #3629933 - 01/15/05 01:21 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Islam is worse because they actually use physical force. Christians and Mormons just harass you alot and knock on your door.




Christians bomb abortion clinics.
Christians had multiple Crusades.
Christians (the Vatican) supported the holocaust.
Christians slaughtered Native Americans.
The list goes on...

Okay... you got me on the Mormons.  But they're still new and haven't much power.




Ignorant, ignorant fool.  Those aren't Christians that do that.  :grin:  Those are people with an agenda.  Just like there are skeptics with an agenda, but they don't have an umbrella under which to hid it, like the people who pretend to be Christians. 

You guys are suckers.  I get it now.  You guys have sucked right into it.  You don't even know that you have sucked into it.  You guys have taken what misled so-called Christians do and you have applied it accross the board against all Christians.  Silly yous.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3629936 - 01/15/05 01:21 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

As more information to allow survival gets incoded, entropy decreases, doesn't it?
Evolution doesn't oppose the laws of thermodynamics, life itself does.




If the earth was a closed system you'd be right.. but we're not.

Earth constantly is recieving energy (and even mass sometimes) from outside forces..
More energy is coming in than is being lost by doing things.. most of it comes from the sun.

Quote:

Wouldn't you consider it better that today we live longer than a century or ten ago? Isn't it better that a lot less people died in all the wars, massacres, slaughters and oppressions of the 20th century (total: 4126 million deaths) than in the 19th (total: 4330 million deaths) or before that?




I might, but evolution doesn't give half a shit about "better". It only cares about "has survivable and reproducable offspring".

All the advances of humanity in the past hundred years -- that's not biological evolution, that's the new evolution that we introduced, technological evolution. It moves a lot faster.. but it's a confusing term, it's not exactly evolution as much as simply progression.

Evolution makes no promises that anything gets better. Changes may be better, they may be worse. Evolution basically is just... change.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Frog]
    #3629948 - 01/15/05 01:30 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:You guys are suckers. I get it now. You guys have sucked right into it. You don't even know that you have sucked into it.




frogidelic!

Quote:

You guys have taken what misled so-called Christians do and you have applied it accross the board against all Christians. Silly yous.




right, christians are all people, just like us. and so, just like 'us' (as, you know, opposed to 'them') they include geniuses, idiots, saints, devils, and all the territory in between. (fat, skinny etc)

...that said, Frog, are you saying the Pope doesn't speak for all Catholics (or whatever)? if I am a catholic but I disagree with the Pope, am I a Catholic? should I change religions? can I have my cake and eat it too by joining the United Church? do people allow what they believe to adapt to changing circumstances?

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3629957 - 01/15/05 01:36 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
right, christians are all people, just like us. and so, just like 'us' (as, you know, opposed to 'them') they include geniuses, idiots, saints, devils, and all the territory in between. (fat, skinny etc)

...that said, Frog, are you saying the Pope doesn't speak for all Catholics (or whatever)? if I am a catholic but I disagree with the Pope, am I a Catholic? should I change religions? can I have my cake and eat it too by joining the United Church? do people allow what they believe to adapt to changing circumstances?




I was raised a Catholic.  I disagree with the Catholic church on many subjects.  I don't care whether I am still a Catholic.  I am a Christian.  THat's the bottom line for me.

And you are buying into my point.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3630100 - 01/15/05 03:33 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

if I am a catholic but I disagree with the Pope, am I a Catholic?



That's akin to asking whether you cease to be an American if you don't back the government. For the Pope or the government, you wouldn't be, but in reality...


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: MrBump]
    #3631053 - 01/15/05 12:20 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

please explain whats wrong with their paragraph on evolution?

is it the something from nothing statemnet that bothers you?


One glaring misconception is that evolution explains how the first cells (life) came to be. It doesn't.

Abiogenesis is the study of living organisims coming from non-living matter.

Evolution is the study of genetic changes which leads to speciation over time.

Completely different.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3631062 - 01/15/05 12:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

That's akin to asking whether you cease to be an American if you don't back the government.

Not even close. The country you are born in is not a choice. (Please don't add in the the lame "you can leave if you want to" argument). To be an American does not mean you must believe or agree with your president. Being a Catholic, by the very nature of joining the religion, means that you accept the Pope's word as law.

Huge difference.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisiblePaou
Seeker

Registered: 09/23/04
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Swami]
    #3631123 - 01/15/05 12:48 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well, technically, most Catholics are born into it as well.  And don't add that lame "you can leave if you want to" argument. :smirk:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Paou]
    #3631175 - 01/15/05 01:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

There is no comparison between discontinuation of a membership in an organization with uprooting yourself physically, leaving your home and loved ones and learning a new culture. I was "born a Catholic" and it took zero effort to stop going to church and/or writing a check to support same.

Your "cleverness" needs work. Try again.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Swami]
    #3632899 - 01/15/05 08:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well Swami, for a valid frame of reference it is necessary to understand what the Catholic Church teaches. Most of us who were born into it were baptized as infants. Baptism effects an ontological change; that means a change in being which persists even if a person were to stop attending mass and stop donating. Moving from one country to another would be a lot easier than reversing an ontological change.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: shroomydan]
    #3633007 - 01/15/05 09:04 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Well Swami, for a valid frame of reference it is necessary to understand what the Catholic Church teaches. Most of us who were born into it were baptized as infants. Baptism effects an ontological change; that means a change in being which persists even if a person were to stop attending mass and stop donating. Moving from one country to another would be a lot easier than reversing an ontological change.




That is like saying:

I want to leave the U.S because I don't like this country, but since I said the pledge of allegiance as a child I am obligated to stay and force myself to love it.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: looner2]
    #3633120 - 01/15/05 09:22 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Not exactly.

I don't recall reading anything about reciting the pledge of allegiance effecting an ontological change. Remember that baptism is a sacrament; its a point where the eternal and the temporal meet, thus its effects are lasting.

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3633629 - 01/15/05 11:23 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
Quote:

if I am a catholic but I disagree with the Pope, am I a Catholic?



That's akin to asking whether you cease to be an American if you don't back the government. For the Pope or the government, you wouldn't be, but in reality...




Not really. Nothing says that a US citizen must support the actions of its government -- in fact the way it's set up is to ensure that such voices can be heard.
The Catholic church on the other hand.. well, even though the pope has made some apologizes, I haven't really caught any recantings of Papal Infalliability. the Pope's God's Voice on Earth.. it went from Jesus to Peter to the Popes.

Quote:

Well Swami, for a valid frame of reference it is necessary to understand what the Catholic Church teaches. Most of us who were born into it were baptized as infants. Baptism effects an ontological change; that means a change in being which persists even if a person were to stop attending mass and stop donating. Moving from one country to another would be a lot easier than reversing an ontological change.





That is only so if you continue to believe in the Catholic faith.. in which case, why would you be leaving?
If you no longer believe in the Catholic faith, it would follow that their baptism would no longer be valid -- either you would be re-baptised or otherwise initiated into your new faith, or, if your new faith is no faith.. you can just forget any of it ever happened.

If you still believe that baptism holds any power over you.. you're still buying what the Catholic church is selling, and you're still a part of it.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

Edited by Mushmonkey (01/15/05 11:30 PM)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: shroomydan]
    #3637360 - 01/16/05 11:33 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
I don't recall reading anything about reciting the pledge of allegiance effecting an ontological change. Remember that baptism is a sacrament; its a point where the eternal and the temporal meet, thus its effects are lasting.



So, you're not making an assumption here... you actually have falsifiable evidence that baptism changes the nature of being?

Sweet. Let's hear/see it.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: shroomydan]
    #3637373 - 01/16/05 11:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Baptism has about as much effect on the child as taking a bath, unless the child himself makes it seem more spiritual, in which case it is the child who makes the baptism worth anything. The act of baptizing though is about as useful as putting water on him.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Sclorch]
    #3640451 - 01/17/05 06:21 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

So, you're not making an assumption here... you actually have falsifiable evidence that baptism changes the nature of being?

Sweet. Let's hear/see it





Of course this is an assumption. It assumes that baptism is what Christians believe it to be. As this is a matter of faith, there is no burden of proof. If you would like to try to prove that an ontological change does not occur at baptism, then go ahead. You will find this is also impossible to prove.

All the good skeptics on this board should be able to agree that nothing can be proved, so why bother asking for proofs?

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Ravus]
    #3640489 - 01/17/05 06:31 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Baptism has about as much effect on the child as taking a bath, unless the child himself makes it seem more spiritual, in which case it is the child who makes the baptism worth anything. The act of baptizing though is about as useful as putting water on him.





That is merely your opinion. The church teaches that sanctifying grace comes from God when the ritual of the sacrament is performed. A person's belief or lack there of does not determine the efficacy of the sacrament. Maybe you got that idea from a Walt Disney movie. Well sacraments are not like fairy dust; they work whether you believe in them or not. This is not just my opinion; this is two thousand years of tradition.

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Offlineskystone
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: shroomydan]
    #3640865 - 01/17/05 08:12 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well to me your version seems more like something from a movie..

It's like those cases where the medicine man from some tribe "curses" a white man, and the white man dies.
He didn't die because the medicine man had power, but becasue
we believed it so much that his body failed. It's the power of suggestion that makes matterial things have special powers.
Same as holy watter, it's holly because a believer ties a whole bunch of prayers and positive thoughts from priests and nuns to it in his mind.

The magic is in the mind, and it doesn't make it an less magical


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: skystone]
    #3640906 - 01/17/05 08:20 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

It seems you share the same opinion as Ravus, a very modern view. Your opinion is not that of the ancient church.

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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: shroomydan]
    #3640924 - 01/17/05 08:26 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

An opinion is something like "This band sucks," or "Red is better than purple." What you are talking about is not a matter of opinion.

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Paou]
    #3640936 - 01/17/05 08:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

What do you mean, not opinion? There are two opposing points of view, held by two different parties. Both cannot be true because they contradict one another. Because the veracity of neither position can be 'proved' I call them opinions.

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InvisiblePaou
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: shroomydan]
    #3640959 - 01/17/05 08:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Belief and opinion are not the same. Opinion is a value judgement. An opinion is completely subjective, and thus there is no right or wrong opinion. Beliefs, on the other hand, can be held about factual matters. Whether that belief is correct or incorrect may or may not be proveable, but that does not make it an opinion. Basically, you and Ravus cannot both be right, so each of you holds a belief in this debate, not an opinion. If you don't believe me, you might want to retake High School English.

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Paou]
    #3641012 - 01/17/05 08:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

OK, I understand. :thumbup:

I was using the word 'opinion' in the sense that Plato used it when he spoke of two realms of reality, the realm of being and knowledge vs. the realm of becoming and opinion.

I whole heartedly agree with you that this is about belief, and I believe that one of the beliefs presented above reflects true being, the way it really is; the other does not.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: shroomydan]
    #3641102 - 01/17/05 09:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The "ancient Church?" You mean the Catholic Church? The one that killed all of the original Christians, such as the Gnostics, and only got to the top by oppression and violence?

"They said to Jesus: Come, let's pray today; let's fast. Jesus responded: What sin have I committed? How have I been overcome? Rather, when the groom leaves the bridal suite, then they should fast and pray."
-Gospel of Thomas


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Offlinecrazyman
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Ravus]
    #3641444 - 01/17/05 10:17 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

It's so funny how off topic y'all get from the original topic after about the 10th post.
As far as I'm concerned; How can a human being with a finite mind, even comprehend the infinite, a.k.a. God, Gods, or Universe?
Pick up a palm-full of beachsand....Imagine all the beaches on Earth...Imagine all the grains of sand and the constant "production" of sand grains through erosion......Pretty close to the deffinition of the word infinty, as close as our minds can comprehend.
Now KNOW that there are more stars and planets in our universe than there are grains of sand on planet Earth. And on top of that, that many more.
Who are we to even think we have a "grasp" on WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON!!!!!!!!!!!
It's all in how you look at it.
And who's to say there isn't a multi-verse as opposed to a uni-verse?

Like I said. It's all in how you look at it.....And also,; Things aren't always as they appear.


--------------------
I want to live in Northern Exposure. Ed Chigliak would be my pal.


Edited by crazyman (01/17/05 10:26 PM)

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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: shroomydan]
    #3641981 - 01/18/05 01:19 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said: A person's belief or lack there of does not determine the efficacy of the sacrament.




With all due respect shroomydan, I would reffer you to Mark 16:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (italics added; underline added)

I would contend that a person's belief actually determines the efficacy of religious rites. Jesus denounced the pharasies because they worshiped with outward preformances but did not act in sincerity (which, consequently, made their ordinances unacceptible to God). Faith gives meaning to ceremony; without faith, 'sacraments' are nothing more than pretentious pagentry. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just felt that this was a point worth making.

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Offlinecrazyman
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: soulmotion]
    #3642427 - 01/18/05 07:36 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The only person who really knew Jesus, personally, was Mary Magdalen, a prostitute. Jesus was actually anti-religion and anti-church, or whatever church was in those days. I believe Jesus was a hyper-conscious person, much like Buddha. What he taught was that he was no different than other men/women... That his relationship to a higher power, or God, is available to all. Jesus Never Said that in order to be "saved" you must believe in him. That "saved" malarkey, from the bible came from old senile men who never Knew Jesus and just wanted to get laid. Jesus!!!  :jesus:


--------------------
I want to live in Northern Exposure. Ed Chigliak would be my pal.


Edited by crazyman (01/18/05 08:41 PM)

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: soulmotion]
    #3642925 - 01/18/05 10:51 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

soulmotion said:
Quote:

shroomydan said: A person's belief or lack there of does not determine the efficacy of the sacrament.




With all due respect shroomydan, I would reffer you to Mark 16:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (italics added; underline added)

I would contend that a person's belief actually determines the efficacy of religious rites. Jesus denounced the pharasies because they worshiped with outward preformances but did not act in sincerity (which, consequently, made their ordinances unacceptible to God). Faith gives meaning to ceremony; without faith, 'sacraments' are nothing more than pretentious pagentry. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just felt that this was a point worth making.




You bring up a good point soulmotion. There are lots of places in New Testemant which speak of faith bringing salvation. This thread is already way off topic, and If we explore this much further it will lead to a discussion over the validity of infant baptism, which I do not wish to engage in. That argument has been going on for millenia and there have been many books written on the subject. I'm not an expert in that field. I do however know that my church baptizes babies, and anoints unconscious people. This is because the church has been given the power to forgive sins. I know this belief is unpopular in our modern era, that doesn't make it false.



Ravus, your pretense of understanding of Christianity is unconvincing.


This is my last post in this thread because it is so off topic.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: shroomydan]
    #3643180 - 01/18/05 12:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Wow... that was the least entertaining dodge I've seen all week.

If it's so off-topic, why don't you just start a new thread?

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Offlinecrazyman
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Sclorch]
    #3645651 - 01/18/05 08:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

:cuckoo:


--------------------
I want to live in Northern Exposure. Ed Chigliak would be my pal.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Christian website on evolution [Re: Sclorch]
    #3645672 - 01/18/05 08:48 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I believe the topic is
Quote:

Christian website on evolution



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