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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
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Killing Just Because
    #3624822 - 01/13/05 08:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Suppose person A kills person B for no reason at all. Walks up, slits throat, walks away and never gives thought(before or after) to said act.
What has been done "wrong"?
Why is it "wrong"?
What is "wrong"?


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: daimyo]
    #3624843 - 01/13/05 08:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Suppose person A kills person B for no reason at all.



impossible.
Quote:

Walks up, slits throat, walks away and never gives thought(before or after) to said act.



also impossible

However, ignoring these inconsistencies which make the problem appear complex, someone was killed. It is "wrong" because the person did not want to get killed and this was forced on them. This is the reason rape is "wrong" and sex is not.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: daimyo]
    #3624854 - 01/13/05 08:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It's considered wrong because we have the gift of empathy, and we can imagine things from the randomly killed person's point of view.

That is what morals are largely based on, in my opinion, our emotions. There is no logical argument for why anything should be considered wrong, but most people accept that causing pain for no reason is wrong because they'd rather it didn't happen to them.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: vampirism]
    #3624988 - 01/13/05 09:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
Quote:

Suppose person A kills person B for no reason at all.



Quote:

impossible.



It is impossible to suppose? Please explain.

Quote:

daimyo said:Walks up, slits throat, walks away and never gives thought(before or after) to said act.



Quote:

Morrowind said:also impossible



Again, please explain.

Quote:

Morrowind said:However, ignoring these inconsistencies



Where is there an inconsistency?

Quote:

Morrowind said:which make the problem appear complex, someone was killed. It is "wrong" because the person did not want to get killed and this was forced on them.



So, an act forced upon another is a wrong? Please explain how you arrived at this conclusion.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Invisiblethegatewaydrug
my burning sunwill some dayrise

Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 6,987
Loc: wherever i may roam
Re: Killing Just Because [Re: daimyo]
    #3625021 - 01/13/05 09:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

some people dont have the emotion to see wut they did as being "wrong" like a hitman, all they see it as is goin to work each day and getting paid


--------------------
May God have mercy upon my enemies, because i won't.

General George S. Patton
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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: deafpanda]
    #3625024 - 01/13/05 09:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
It's considered wrong because we have the gift of empathy, and we can imagine things from the randomly killed person's point of view.



When you say we, who do you mean?

To anyone...It is wrong BECAUSE we have the gift of empathy and have imagination? Please elaborate.


--------------------
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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: daimyo]
    #3625064 - 01/13/05 09:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

the question is, how far back do you wanna trace the chain of causation from A murdering B for "no reason"?

"Because they have a hormonal imbalance, and they randomly go crazy and murder people."

but why does the hormonal imbalance take the form of killing people?

"it's totally random, man." *takes a big toke and holds it in*

well, I submit that the word 'random' in this case means 'I don't and probably never will have the data necessary to determine why' (why = the Ultimate Cause) (which is the Big Bang, or God or whatever)

of course, that means 'why' person A murdered person B is irrelevant. the reason has no bearing on whether it's wrong or not.


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: daimyo]
    #3625090 - 01/13/05 09:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It is wrong because great pain has been caused to those around him, and to him in the moments before he died. And when I say
pain I don't mean the emotion of pain. I mean the feeling of
disconfort caused by the emotion of pain.

Something bothering you is in the essence of the mind, while emotions are more external. When we get a negative stimulus, it causes a negative emotion, and that emotion causes disconfort in the mind.
So it's not the stimuli that bother's us, it's the emotion that bothers us. But the essential thing that makes it negative is the bothering itself.

Feeling that something is unpleasant can come from many things, and
is always the same. Anger makes us feel unpleasant, and fear does it too. these emotions are not the part of our inner mind. the inner mind is bothered by these sensations.

Now this feeling of "that is positive" and "that is negative" caused by various emotions is the thing that is the BEGINING of the process of defining what is right or wrong.

And soon as this inner mind says something is unpleasant, that event has criteria to be wrong on the objective scale.
So then we analise the rest of the story. Perhapse it was for the greater good of myself or others.

The fact that emotions can be evaluated by us proves that they are not us. They are sensations given to us. We analize those sensations
and say do we find them pleasant or not. This IS us. This is the essence of positive and negative.
Emotions are carriers of information to our mind, they are as external as the event that caused them.

So if you want an objective evaluation of what is right and wrong,
this is how you would do it:

Supose you are a creature above humans, above the whole scenario,
a spirit, god whatever.

You would look at how much and in how many people has the mind
decided that something is unpleasant, not good for it, not wanted.
And you would consider the reason of the action, the intentions,
and finaly you would come up with the judgement is that right or wrong, positive or negative.

The key of it all is in this basic rejection or afirmation of the
minds.

It is not always accurate to judge by negative emotions, because one can accept them and find them irrelevant, or even positive and wanted, It depends on the attitude of the victim towards those emotions. One can like or dislike pain.

Ok so, what makes causing inner mental disconfort wrong?
What makes it wrong is the fact that it is done. One who thinks
he is separate from everything else can not understand this.
But as soon as you realize that you are connected with everything,
and that there are not many things, but only one thing in existence, a great big system of being, you will know that the fact that harm was done anywhere is your own pain and suffering and shame, even though you close your eyes to it, and pretend you don't feel it, which leads to your ego not feeling it at all.

There are no separate objects. There is only one object, every
harm done to it by itself is wrong because selfdestruction is
not a way of Being.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: daimyo]
    #3625094 - 01/13/05 09:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It is an established fact that we are empathetic creatures. It is one of the things that marks us out from animals. In psychology it is called "theory of mind". It is what autistic people are lacking, according to Ali G's brother (Simon Baron-Cohen, a psychologist). It is "stepping into someone else's shoes", you might say.

When we are reminded of pain, we give out a negative response. We cringe. A lot of to do with why we think it's wrong is because of the way it makes us feel.

Look at homosexuality, it makes lots of people cringe so it is widely thought of as immoral.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3625131 - 01/13/05 09:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
the question is, how far back do you wanna trace the chain of causation from A murdering B for "no reason"?



No. That is not the question. Plese refer to the first post in this thread for the 3 questions.


--------------------
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Offlinedeff
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: deafpanda]
    #3625153 - 01/13/05 09:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

subjectively wrong, whereas objectively (outside of perception) morals have no existance obviously.

it is subjectively wrong, as to the subject (person a), it goes against his own desire (of survival) had the roles been reversed.

morality is mostly how the action would have been percieved if it happened to you. don't do to others what you wouldn't want done, as clearly this is hypocritical - and that's 'wrong' :lol:

plus it comes down to us all being the same Being, and in essence, bringing negative experience into Ourself. But this is a bit different, and is the justification of karma (imo).

I wouldn't do it, as I see no 'reason' to, and because I wouldn't want to be murdered myself, and because I believe in treating others how I would want to be treated (or rather how THEY would want to be treated).

sounds like some familiar rule to me... :smile:


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: deff]
    #3625176 - 01/13/05 09:42 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:

plus it comes down to us all being the same Being, and in essence, bringing negative experience into Ourself.




that's exactly what I said/had-in-mind, only shorter :smile:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: skystone]
    #3625182 - 01/13/05 09:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

We all agree!

Hooray!


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: skystone]
    #3625215 - 01/13/05 09:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skystone said:
It is wrong because great pain has been caused to those around him, and to him in the moments before he died.



By this logic it could be considered "right" because it may bring great joy to some(a person that hates person B, someone that enjoys suffering, a fan of person A).

Quote:

skystone said:
The fact that emotions can be evaluated by us proves that they are not us. They are sensations given to us.



Please explain.

Quote:

skystone said:
You would look at how much and in how many people has the mind
decided that something is unpleasant, not good for it, not wanted.
And you would consider the reason of the action, the intentions,
and finaly you would come up with the judgement is that right or wrong, positive or negative.



What does the number of people believing something is unpleasnt have to do with it?
I agree with the intention part.

Quote:

skystone said:
Ok so, what makes causing inner mental disconfort wrong?
What makes it wrong is the fact that it is done.



I have made a sandwhich. The fact that is done makes it wrong?

Quote:

skystone said:
But as soon as you realize that you are connected with everything,
and that there are not many things, but only one thing in existence, a great big system of being,



That is one BIG assumption.

Quote:

skystone said:
There are no separate objects. There is only one object, every
harm done to it by itself is wrong because selfdestruction is
not a way of Being.



Why is selfdestruction not a way of Being? I think you have to define Being for this...


--------------------
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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: deff]
    #3625258 - 01/13/05 09:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
it is subjectively wrong, as to the subject (person a), it goes against his own desire (of survival) had the roles been reversed.



It is not against this individuals desire. This is an individual waiting/hoping to die/be murdered. Is it still wrong? How/Why?


--------------------
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Offlinedeff
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: daimyo]
    #3625328 - 01/13/05 10:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

not at all, so long as the murderer thought that it was his victim's wish to die

purposedly acting against one's freedom in a way that causes them discomfort is my definition of subjective 'wrongfullness'


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Offlineskystone
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: daimyo]
    #3625363 - 01/13/05 10:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Right is simply the absence of wrong.
If there is both joy and anti-joy at the same place, the joy can not mean that it's right because of the above statement.
If right is abesence of wrong, it can not be right since there is
wrong in the same place.


ok next quote..

"please explain"...

Emotions are external, they are evaluated as pleasant or not,
You can say: "I don't want to feel this", but you never say:
"I don't want to not want to feel this" If you do say that, it means
you are not refering to the neares wanting, the most direct wanting
that is in your essence, but only to one of the parts of the evaluation chain that connects the external event and the inner core of your self.

next..

the number of people...

The larger part of the whole is infected. The cancer has
spread through the system.

next..

the sandwich..

what are you talking about?
I was saying that HARM is done, and that makes the event
negative, not that ANYTHING is done..

next...

It is not an assumption. It depends on how you look at things.
If you dysect the universe, you will find that the further you go
there is a smaller number of different types of particles,
if you go deeper the concept of matter dissapears, and matter and
energy are one and the same thing only differently arranged.
It's all one big thing, living breathing. A system with an agenda
of progress, construction and self-complication so to speak.
It swirls it self into the illusion of separatness making all kinds of shapes and figures.

A great metaphore would be clay. Imagine making a city out of one piece of clay. You have the illusion that there are separate buildings, but it's just one piece of clay distorted into this illusion....


next...

selfdestruction is not a way of being because obviously
the way of being is construction. Long before we came with our
little minds onto earth the universe was complexing itself and building larger and more complex structures. We are a living proof of that. Sentient violece is disolving the complexity of
that work into more simple structures.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Anonymous

Re: Killing Just Because [Re: daimyo]
    #3625381 - 01/13/05 10:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

There is no right or wrong. But, there are actions that serve self, and actions that serve otherselves or all selves. Those that don't serve all serve only self. Killing a random person therefore serves only the killer. Subjectively this is "wrong" to most people.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: ]
    #3625405 - 01/13/05 10:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Max Headroom said:
But, there are actions that serve self, and actions that serve otherselves or all selves. Those that don't serve all serve only self.



There are no actions that can serve some?

Quote:

Max Headroom said:
Killing a random person therefore serves only the killer. Subjectively this is "wrong" to most people.



How does it serve the killer? How does it not serve someone that wishes person B dead?


--------------------
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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Killing Just Because [Re: deff]
    #3625410 - 01/13/05 10:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
not at all, so long as the murderer thought that it was his victim's wish to die



Right and wrong are then left up to each persons thought of what another may or may not think is right or wrong?
There is no right or wrong? Just individual subjective guesses?


--------------------
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