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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: spores]
    #3634990 - 01/16/05 01:04 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

sounds good man!


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no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: Noviseer]
    #3635180 - 01/16/05 02:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

is that all of it?

thanks I grabbed them, always on the look out

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Invisiblespores
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3636156 - 01/16/05 07:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

nope, here's the rest of the fugue

















DH

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: spores]
    #3636623 - 01/16/05 08:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I also think Nuno Bettencourt did "Flight of the Bumble Bee"  (Extreme) on their first CD...?  He is playing it to a click track, and it *sounds* like it has an echo effect or something so he only has to play half the notes...?  Not for sure, never looked it up....  It is impressive tho~....  Never heard John Petrucci do it....?  He musta~ rocked it our for sure....  Sure Malmsteen has done it, but not for sure either....  Blah blah blah...  Enough "not for sure" babbling...!  :lol:

All I know is that my fingers can't move that fast, and I can't read music....  I do have the tab for "Ode to Joy", and learned a lot of it back when I was first learning how to play....  It was pretty cool, but just don't have the patients to learn other people's stuff....  :shrug:    MUCH more fun making up yer~ own shyt....  :yesnod:

ChoW~,
>^;;^<


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3637379 - 01/16/05 11:40 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know, I feel like Flight of the Bumblebee transcribed for classical guitar is sort of silly... not that it's not impressive. It is. but silly, I haven't seen or heard it but it's probably really weird and unnatural on the fretboard. I like guitaristic music

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OfflinePsilygirl
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: spores]
    #3645137 - 01/18/05 07:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

awesome! :laugh:


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: Psilygirl]
    #3646201 - 01/18/05 10:04 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

so tell me DH, is the Toccata and Fugue you put up there for electric guitar? is John Kiefer a speed-metal neo-classical guy? just because the whole thing is pretty much one single line of notes, note after note in a mind-numbing volley of melody. is one supposed to play that with a pick? and are you playing it with the same fingerings that Keifer wrote in?

what is neo-classical guitar anyways?

...and in that case, would the afore-mentioned Flight of the Bumblebee be another neo-classical speed thrash piece?

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Invisiblespores
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3647286 - 01/19/05 07:04 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, it's for electric

the 'mind numbing volley of melody' is characteristic of a lot of baroque music, I dig it, it's an acquired taste I suppose.  the original organ piece has a lot more counterpoint and harmony, can't really do it justice with one e guitar

I dunno who john kiefer is, but you definitely don't have to be a speed-metal neoclassical guy to learn something from putting together a bach piece on the guitar :tongue:

yeah, I always use a pick for stuff like that, it's good for practicing alternate, economy and sweep picking techniques.  I never learned the whole thing, used to know most of it, but I can only remember the intro and the first part of the fugue any more.  I think I had to change the fingering in a spot or two, but most of it worked well for me.

the version of FotBB by kevin ferguson is him playing with some midi or keyboard backing tracks and stuff.  supposed to be like the 'real' song, just with guitar in place of violin.  so no, I wouldn't call it a speed thrash piece :smirk:.  the petrucci one was just him playing the main theme live on solo guitar

i kind of dislike the term neoclassical, but wikipedia has a good entry on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-classical_metal

DH

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Offlinestefan
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: spores]
    #3648101 - 01/19/05 12:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

with guitar in place of violin



I thought it was for piano?

anyway i played the first few bars and I'm going to leave it like that. the whole song you have to do exaclty the same thing, I get bored to easily. also it would take way too mcuh time and effort for me to play the whole song--> I better learn some usefull things.
think I'm going to learn more from the toccata et fugue. more melodig and more variation :thumbup:

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: spores]
    #3648153 - 01/19/05 12:43 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Bach is excellent.

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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: spores]
    #3648596 - 01/19/05 02:09 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DH said:
the 'mind numbing volley of melody' is characteristic of a lot of baroque music, I dig it, it's an acquired taste I suppose. the original organ piece has a lot more counterpoint and harmony




agree, though baroque music is also characterized by its counterpoint and harmony, which was lacking in this case. I guess John Keifer's transcription has its use, specifically as a study for 'neoclassical' technique (read: very fast picking), but I wonder why he didn't just write something modeled after the Toccata & Fugue rather than trying to transcribe it, then realizing he couldn't do it justice, but continuing anyway. Or maybe he didn't realize that. I noticed, playing through it, that he had a number of fingerings which were trickier than they had to be and also cut off notes which should have kept ringing. also yeah, if a classical guitarist were to transcribe it (meaning someone who intended it to be played with the fingers and not a plectrum), they could probably make it more authentic to the original, with the various intertwining melodic lines relatively intact rather than totally overlooked.

I'm about 1/4 through teaching myself Bach's Fuga BWV 100, which was originally written for solo lute. this one is transcribed by a guy named Frank Koonce. it's played slower than the Toccata & Fugue but as soon as the second bar splits from one melodic line into two, then to three pretty quick. of course it is much, much easier to transcribe from lute to guitar than it is from organ to guitar, but ...

hmm, I guess all I'm saying is different transcriptions are done for different reasons, and the transcribers have different priorities. I just wonder if John Keifer's desire to have his name under Bach's outweighed his ability to transcribe as faithfully as possible in keeping with his own priorities.

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Invisiblespores
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: stefan]
    #3648633 - 01/19/05 02:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

hehe, yeah, I hear ya stefan, way too much cool music out there to get stuck on one piece too long :smile:

you may be correct about FotBB, I always just assumed it was originally written for an orchestra with the violin doing the nifty chromatic theme stuff, I've seen it played by pianists as well though.  it can be arranged for a number of different instruments, but it's from one of Rimsky-Korsakovs' operas, so it was probably first made as an orchestral piece rather than a solo piece for one player, just my guess.

DH

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Invisiblespores
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3648742 - 01/19/05 02:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think you're overanalyzing it, no one is trying to pass this off as an authentic full arrangement of the song. but just because it doesn't have all the counterpoint and harmony doesn't mean it's not baroque music or something.  you can tell what it is when you hear it, so I'd call it a decent arrangement, considering the limitations of the solo electric guitar.  if you want to learn to play some parts from Toccata and fugue you don't make up something along the same lines that sounds similar and works better on your instrument, you learn the real deal as well as you can for your instrument.  i'm sure he realized you cant do it justice with one e guitar, as that's plainly obvious to anyone when you listen to the real version or see the sheet music.  if one wanted to devote more time to it, I'm sure you could come up with a reasonably accurate arrangement for a few electric guitars.  but if you just want to play some bach lines (which is probably what he and the majority of people using the tab want to do), that's probably more work than you're willing to go through...

It's not like people that arrange/transcribe classical music for the electric guitar are really noticed or become famous in any way, so I don't know why you would question his priorities in creating a tab for a bach piece.  I figured it was done for the same reason I did the ptabs on the page, to learn and share some classical music with others that would benefit from being exposed to it. or maybe just to get paid, as it looks like it was scanned from a book.

as for the fingerings, I assume the sometimes ackward ones are to keep the picking more straight forward.

people using the term neoclassical to describe "fast picking" is one of the reasons I don't like the term.  fast picking has very little to do with it compared to the other techniques and ideas borrowed from classical music.  there are a whole lot of electric guitarists out there that just play musical gibberish really fucking fast and get called "neoclassical" for no good reason, some of which are mentioned even in the wiki entry :rolleyes:.  and then you have the guys who mix the classicalish stuff up with jazz and blues licks and they still get called neoclassical too, I just think it's an overapplied and innacurate term. 

it's a good exercise in various forms of fancy picking for sure, but there's also a lot to be learned from the phrasing, note choice and overall composition.

DH

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Offlinestefan
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: spores]
    #3648848 - 01/19/05 03:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

people using the term neoclassical to describe "fast picking"




I thought the term neo-classical has more to do with this
Quote:

to the other techniques and ideas borrowed from classical music



and mostly in a metal/rock kinda fashion. usually th licks are very fast indeed.

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Invisiblespores
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: stefan]
    #3648885 - 01/19/05 03:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, some parts are played quickly and the general style is not slow music, but the speed is only half the package.

listen to some francisco fareri, rusty cooley, chris impelliterri (sp), michael angelo batio etc.  you'll hear they play fast as hell, but there is generally no real melody or sense of musicality.  yet they are consistently called neoclassical.  I know I'm not going to change anything by bitching, I just think it's bullshit and gives people with actual talent (paul gilbert, jason becker, vinnie moore, alexi laiho, yngwie I suppose) that are put in the same category a bad name, as they are all very melodic players and amazing musicians.

the wikipedia entry I linked above sums it up very well with technical terms.

just using it to mean fast picking means I could call a slayer solo neoclassical :smirk:

DH

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Invisibleoneducktwoducks
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar *DELETED* [Re: spores]
    #3649115 - 01/19/05 03:58 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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Invisiblespores
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: oneducktwoducks]
    #3650315 - 01/19/05 07:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Letto said:Basically, these neoclassical transcriptions are only to show of someone's playing skill by playing the fastest and cleanest.




I think that's a common misconception among the traditionalists.  electric guitarists don't all learn bach and such just so we can play the harmonic minor scale at 9 million miles an hour, although I know it may seem that way if your only exposure to so-called "neoclassical" is yngwie or some other such nonsense.  don't get me wrong, he's a monster guitar player, but most of his stuff sounds the same and he does have a tendency to overplay, as you've no doubt noticed.  still though, how is that different than some flamenco or bluegrass guitarist that plays crazy fast samey-sounding stuff all the time? the technical aspect and speed is an integral part of the music they make, it isn't the same without it.  I see nothing wrong with being able to (<- key words) play fast and clean when it's called for, is this not something many/most classical guitarists (and musicians in general) strive for as well?  if you can pull it off and keep up, more power to you.  if you can play fast and clean, then you really do have something to show off, but you don't have to do it all the time.  I remember reading some interview with joe satriani where he was talking about how great what yngwie did was, something about how after he came around, kids would actually come to lessons and ask to learn what a harmonic minor scale was and shit like that.  I think anything that gets people into classical music is a good thing, even those initially attracted by the fast stuff will eventually realize there's more to it than speed. 

there are many other players (such as those others I listed above) that take the techniques learned from playing classical stuff on electric guitar and combine it with more modern sounds to create something unique.  marty friedman or steve vai are good examples, their stuff uses all the fancy picking tricks and shit you need to do to play all those pieces I posted, but more ethnic sounding scales, pentatonics and modal stuff as opposed to straight harmonic minor ad nauseam.  as a result their guitar work (from megadeth on for marty anyway) really doesn't sound very classicalish at all, but totally fresh and "of this century" so to speak.  same deal with paul gilberts work with Mr. Big, a straightforward rock band.  you may dismiss this all as guitar wankery and say these people are mindless guitar robots or whatever, but this is where I see value in learning this stuff on electric guitar. the focus isn't so much on just playing things exactly as they were written by the composer, compared to most classical guitarists.  the electric guitarist learns these things in the hopes that some of the genius will sink in and improve your ability to come up with your own slick sounding (not necessarily fast, but yes, sometimes fast) improvisations and parts to ORIGINAL music, foreign concepts to you strict classical guitar players, I know :tongue:.  oh come on, humor me, one misconception deserves another, or is that one true? hehehe hrmmmm :smile: :wink: :grin:.  If you think about it though, the goals and potential musical applications for the average classical guitarist vs. the average electric guitarist are quite different.

Jam on!!

:jamming:

DH

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Invisibleoneducktwoducks
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar *DELETED* [Re: spores]
    #3650507 - 01/19/05 08:25 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: oneducktwoducks]
    #3650853 - 01/19/05 09:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

zow! this has become a killer thread. I think we all basically agree on main points though. (and I do apologize for my (mis)use of the word 'neoclassical', especially since I've never used it before this thread.)

speaking personally, I think of myself first as a composer and second as a guitarist. I play and write predominantly music to be played without a pick. when I play Bach, I play it to get a sense of that style (for the composer part of me), but also as a study (for the guitarist), just like anyone who plays John Keifer's transcription.

the electric guitarist learns these things in the hopes that some of the genius will sink in and improve your ability to come up with your own slick sounding improvisations and parts to ORIGINAL music

yeah, same with the classical guitarist/composer. I guess the nit-picky point I was flailing to make was that in particular, John Keifer's Toccata & Fugue transcription left me slightly disappointed, since I was looking for something specific which it wasn't. I'll take back my comment about awkward fingerings, but I'll add that some parts of the melody are actually incorrect (this is me comparing it to my memory of the organ piece, so I could be wrong). Did Keifer choose the Toccata & Fugue because he liked it, because we all recognize it from Fantasia, because it's so damn rockin? fair enough... I dunno, whatever.

(I guess I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to classical guitar, even though I like to think of the music I compose as, you know, anything but.)

so why does Yingwie Malmstein (sorry) play classical music on an electic guitar? why the hell not? but is it classical music? (no, it's neoclassical..) who cares what it is labelled though, right? as long as it's good. well, is it good? ...AHA!

so this semantic discussion boils down to a question of taste. I've only seen/heard one video of Malmstein, and he was playing this ridiculously, amazingly fast passage with just his fretting hand, and his other hand was held in the air above his head, and his tongue was sticking out and he was shaking his head back and forth. impressive I suppose, but... 'course I can't really talk about him until I listen to his entire body of work, can I? which I'm not about to do. So I'll never judge Malmstein again, I promise.

(as you can probably see, it is very difficult for me to efficiently get my point across.)

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Offlinestefan
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Re: J.S. Bach- 2 Part Invention #4 in Dm on guitar [Re: oneducktwoducks]
    #3651774 - 01/20/05 01:55 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

great discussions, I love it :laugh:
don't have much to add myself at the moment, exept a recommendation for Letto. Youshould listen to Yngwie Malmsteens album Rising Force sometime. it's a pretty old one (1982 I think?) and it's also the only one I have. on this one he doesn't play fullon fast parts all the time, he uses them only moderately. I think you might even like it :wink:

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