Home | Community | Message Board


Kraken Kratom
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: Tacos

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Prayer and Free-Will
    #3598578 - 01/08/05 03:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Was reading an article in Guideposts Magazine about supercharging your prayers. The author goes on to say how certain events happened to fulfill her prayers. If this was true, the other parties involved would have to have been "nudged" by God in a specific direction. The only possible conclusions I can come to is that:

A. The woman was delusional.

or

B. Free-will does not exist.

Is my logic unsound?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: Swami]
    #3598663 - 01/08/05 03:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The logic is indeed not faulty.

Sad thing is, those 'religious types' that cling [believe] to such concepts and ideologies, will mistake the expose` of what they've identified themselves with [I believe this], to mean that the actual, objective experience was invalid.

Just because the individual's subjective observation of how such chain of events came to be about, is incongruent with objective reality and logic...Does not mean that what actually happened is impossible, or invalid. It's simply a shift in perception!

All anybody ever needs, are facts. Plain and simple.
I have mentally concentrated on a desired effect or goal, and then the desired effect occured. This is a fact. Why should I need beliefs? Faith is fine, in the context of 'plunging into the unknown, and accepting that I only know what I know.' In other words, 'letting go' of any beliefs and flowing with the impartial winds of life. This, in my experience, breeds peace, acceptance and confidence [not pride], whereas clinging to beliefs, breeds fear, desire and pride.

With billions of people professing countless different beliefs for the same common denominator, it's clearly obvious that all subjectivities and beliefs are rather pointless.

:smile:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (01/08/05 03:48 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 19,747
Loc: The Hand
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: Swami]
    #3598828 - 01/08/05 04:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"Was reading an article in Guideposts Magazine"

Interesting. Were you that bored during your ban? Or do you as the skeptic try to keep an eye on the "enemy". (Not that it's a war or anything).

Otherwise it seems an odd read for you...

"Is my logic unsound"

Are you asking in a general sense, or specifically in this post?

Generally, yes IMHO.

Specifically, yes IMHO.

Well you asked.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (01/08/05 04:26 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3598872 - 01/08/05 04:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In a quantum universe perhaps this person's prayer played some role in which realities manifested themselves in her life. You are thinking in more of a frozen absolutist world rather than fluid or maleable one.
It is a bit of a jump, but IF some kind of god or high being(s) exist and the true nature of reality is interconnected with the mind I think it is possible to influence the course of the future through mental actions such as prayer. It doesn't matter if free will exists or not. In fact either way you look at it free-will is still an extremely difficult topic.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePedM
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/31/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 days, 17 hours
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: Swami]
    #3598894 - 01/08/05 04:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I don't pray in the same sense, but I do wish for things with a certain feverence. For example, when it looked as though I'd not be able to pay January's rent, I set aside a few moments to wish that some circumstance would arise to rescue me from the situation. The next day, my spouse received a cheque in the mail from the government; they had made an error in her taxes and refunded her just enough money to complete our rent payment.

There are many examples of these things in my life. Though, I wouldn't offer them here as proof that prayer or "wishing" is a means of getting what you want out of the universe. There are many possible explanations for what happened. Among the most likely is that by making the wish I created an event within my own mind which, when fulfilled, created the illusion that my "prayer" had been "answered". By making a personal request for a wish to be fulfilled, I've created the potential in my own mind for any circumstance which fulfills my wish to be experienced as a personal response to my request.

That is a perfect example of what karma is. First, the mental action: making the wish. This creates a potential within the mind. Second, the experience which fulfils that potential. Third, the effect: the illusion, which reinforces the mental action, and starts the cycle over again.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: Ped]
    #3598913 - 01/08/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah I suppose you could also say thay by prayer you are adjusting your minds filter to register certain valued events. Because there is an infinite amount of stuff going on, or things around you that you don't percieve praying might make you more likely to tune into realities that are already there. Rather than changing reality in quantum sense you could be changing the reality as your brain filters it and you percieve it. Since there is so much going on in the world you can probobly find signs for just about everything. This isn't necessarily delusional, it just means the function of prayer is more symbolic and internalized than literal.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3598953 - 01/08/05 04:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Or do you as the skeptic try to keep an eye on the "enemy".
I read and examine everything. This is what "close-minded" people do.

Otherwise it seems an odd read for you...
Only if you assume you have the faintest clue of what I am about.

Specifically, yes IMHO.
What is unsound about this case?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 19,747
Loc: The Hand
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3598966 - 01/08/05 05:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I would say that belief in achieving the goal was partly what led to it's achievement. Belief is stronger than fact because it bridges the present with the future.

Let's say, for example, my goal is to get a job. I'm prepared in a factual way, for example college or reading books. I'm intelligent. I want a job. But, I'm stuck in the factual reality of having no money, being depressed, spending inordinate time on the internet, have addictions, etc. I don't believe my reality will change, I don't deserve it to. Do you think I will get a job?

Compare this to the person, perhaps less prepared, or even less intelligent, and perhaps even more addicted to drugs or booze, but who truly believes they WILL get XYZ job. They WILL go into the interview with confidence and enthusiasm the "more prepared" applicant will totally lack. They WILL often end up with XYZ job.

The WILL to succeed, to achieve, to be great, is what makes it happen.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePedM
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/31/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 days, 17 hours
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3598978 - 01/08/05 05:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Very well said.

I'm reminded of an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation in which Commander Worf was shifting between parallel quantum universes. Commander Data postulated the theory that everything that can happen does happen, in alternate universes. Understanding our mind's connection with reality, it's conceivable that it's our actions and our thoughts which grant our mind affinity for certain universes in which we have certain experiences. We can elaborate on this by suggesting that by changing our mind, we can "change the station" which we receive, thereby entering alternate causal streams and creating the potential for different experiences.

Of course, this raises the obvious question: if each mind is unique, then each mind's affinity for different realities must also be unique, which means that only one mind can inhabit one universe at any one time. To reconcile this, it might be helpful to consider our similarities instead of our differences. Doesn't it make sense that similar causal streams might share an affinity with eachother, and might therefore overlap, bringing many different people from many different places together on a common ground which they might conceive of as an "objective" reality?

Perhaps so, perhaps not. There is no way to know for sure. It is an entertaining discussion nonetheless.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3599034 - 01/08/05 05:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Prayer is not about positive attitude as an atheist will fit your defintion of the go-getter, but about petitioning a superior force to intercede on the material plane.

If God "makes me" bump into your car, and while exchanging IDs, I find out you would be a great fit in my company and offer you a job, you may say your prayer was answered. If true, then did God make that hot babe walk by at that specific moment to distract me (and prime me by giving me a sex drive in the first place)and hence bump into your car? Or was it my responsibility alone?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3599059 - 01/08/05 05:15 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I would say that belief in achieving the goal was partly what led to it's achievement.

Then we have a semantic difference.
Before we go further, a question:
Is it possible to have will, effort and intent towards a projected goal, without clinging to any belief? Just facts and faith of the unknown.

Right now, I am going to will myself to the goal of purchasing an Ultimate Cheeseburger from Jack in the Box. I acknowledge that I may or may not complete this. This, is an objective fact.

:smile:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3599125 - 01/08/05 05:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In another timeline you purchased and ate the cheeseburger, but you were dissatisfied.

In this timeline I recommend the excellant Jack in the Box tacos. Yummy!


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 19,747
Loc: The Hand
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3599324 - 01/08/05 05:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"Is it possible to have will, effort and intent towards a projected goal, without clinging to any belief? Just facts and faith of the unknown"

I would classify "faith of the unknown" as one of those beliefs you call "clinging". As such, it is hard to answer your question.

I will say that belief in oneself and belief in achieving a goal, whether that is getting a job, getting a woman/man, getting overseas, or whatever one's heart desires is vital to achievement of desired goal. That kind of belief is one to "cling" to from my perspective.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleuriahchase
Skinny White Boy
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Cat-a-pult, Pingu Slap

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 675
Loc: SoCal
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: zorbman]
    #3599357 - 01/08/05 05:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

you may state that you were coerced into hitting her car, by the hot babe who was dressed in only a mini-skirt and a baby-sized tee.
you could have not prevented your desire to avoid a certain penalty.(hitting car) which determined your response..if you had known that you would wreck you would not have looked at her.


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


Edited by uriahchase (01/08/05 06:04 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: uriahchase]
    #3599370 - 01/08/05 06:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

You saw the same one, eh?  :cool:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleuriahchase
Skinny White Boy
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Cat-a-pult, Pingu Slap

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 675
Loc: SoCal
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: Swami]
    #3599423 - 01/08/05 06:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

very hot!!


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3599489 - 01/08/05 06:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I would classify "faith of the unknown" as one of those beliefs you call "clinging". As such, it is hard to answer your question.

When one lets go [de-clings] to accept the fact that they do not know what is unknown; of beliefs; simple acceptance of what is, the objective facts... This is what you would call a belief?
I do not need to believe that my body ages. This is a simple, observable fact. I know my body ages.

Btw, I achieved the goal of purchasing an ultimate cheeseburger from Jack in the Box. There was no belief involved nor was any belief necessary for this goal to be accomplished.
And because there was no clinging, no belief of sorts, I was free from fear of the future. This freedom arose from acceptance of the actual, objective, facts of what-is.

I will say that belief in oneself and belief in achieving a goal, whether that is getting a job, getting a woman/man, getting overseas, or whatever one's heart desires is vital to achievement of desired goal. That kind of belief is one to "cling" to from my perspective.

Okay.
Once more, I simply bring forth to light of discussion: will, effort and intent... these three are not belief-dependent... or are they?



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleuriahchase
Skinny White Boy
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Cat-a-pult, Pingu Slap

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 675
Loc: SoCal
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3599530 - 01/08/05 06:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

they would be dependant upon the belief they exist...and on the beief that the one being in question belives that they are not dependant upon being free, which is dependant upon having the freeness to belive.


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3599540 - 01/08/05 06:31 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe Michael Newton's books will can provide some insights.

http://www.near-death.com/newton.html

http://www.llewellyn.com/bookstore/author.php?id=23225


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Prayer and Free-Will [Re: uriahchase]
    #3599545 - 01/08/05 06:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Could you please rephrase and clarify what you are saying?



If something actually exists as an objective fact; then it exists whether I believe it or not. The sun sets or rises whether I believe it does or not. This is because it is not dependent of a belief; it is a fact.

"Truth stands alone." -Swami



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (01/08/05 07:33 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop for: Tacos

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* All hail the american prayer thedudenj 1,025 13 03/19/08 12:44 AM
by thedudenj
* Prayer and Free Will Swami 652 12 04/19/04 08:58 PM
by Swami
* Physics and Unanswered Prayers
( 1 2 3 all )
OrgoneConclusion 3,133 41 07/03/07 11:17 AM
by factory81
* Christians whining about public prayer being barred in schools
( 1 2 all )
OrgoneConclusion 1,639 36 06/24/08 07:33 PM
by Redstorm
* Say your prayers
( 1 2 all )
Silversoul 1,368 22 02/18/05 03:52 PM
by Alan Stone
* take part in a prayer experiment tonight!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
NiamhNyx 5,927 140 06/07/07 07:04 PM
by Icelander
* Visualization, The Law of Attraction, and Prayer
( 1 2 3 4 all )
OrgoneConclusion 4,505 63 11/16/08 03:27 PM
by Mycomyth
* Free Speech vs Religion
( 1 2 3 all )
SeussA 2,899 45 02/22/08 07:04 PM
by OrgoneConclusion

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
2,803 topic views. 1 members, 2 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Avalon Magic Plants
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.081 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 16 queries.