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Invisibleblink
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An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights
    #3598395 - 01/08/05 12:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'm surprise you guys haven't got a topic about this

Here is the plane

Here is the story:

The Washington Post finally breaks the story of CIA torture flights in the domestic press with Jet Is an Open Secret In Terror War(reg req'd). The story has been running internationally for a long time, but now Americans can proudly read about how their tax dollars are being used to finance the operation of a private Gulfstream V to illegally transport people not charged with a crime in any court to countries where the US can torture them by proxy, unseen and unheard.

I put up a diary on torture flights six weeks ago, Bushco's Torture Flights - Proof!, using a story from The Sunday Times in London which had obtained copies of the confidential flight logs for the Gulfstream V. I said then in a comment:
Quote:


The Boeing 737 and Gulfstream 5 appear to be used as prisoner transports. It is rumoured, however, that there are also helicopters at the disposal of the same secret teams which might have a more sinister purpose.




Maybe the United States is the new Argentina: nice beaches, good skiing, delicious steaks, friendly people and a hideous, torturing, corrupt ruling elite.


The WaPo article scrupulously avoids personalising the torture of individuals by quoting those few who have survived and been freed, or interviewing those who have been directly involved. The Sunday Times pulled fewer punches in its coverage, describing the heirarchy of choices open to the CIA:

Bob Baer, a former CIA operative in the Middle East, said: "If you want a serious interrogation you send a prisoner to Jordan. If you want them to be tortured you send them to Syria. If you want someone to disappear . . . you send them to Egypt."

Among the countries where prisoners have been sent by America is Uzbekistan, a close ally and a dictatorship whose secret police are notorious for their interrogation methods, including the alleged boiling of prisoners. The Gulfstream made at least seven trips to the Uzbek capital.

The WaPo overlooks the Boeing 737 used for the same purpose and also owned by Premier Executive Transport, but the journalists have done a good job of backchecking the corporate registration details and establishing that all of the directors of Premier are false identities with recently issued Social Security numbers.

Since the story broke in the Times, the registration of the planes has been changed yet again to disguise them on their rounds. Culver provided the following:

Further data. Gulfstream N379P becomes N8068V: the price of carelessness with flight logs, or notoriety, or just business practice

Don't look for tail number N379P if you are seeking a clandestine transporter of enemy combatants to undisclosed locations for Extraordinary Rendition, i.e., delivery of detainees to foreign locations for advanced interrogation. A straightforward open source analysis reveals that N379P is now N8068V, same serial number (581), same owner (Premiere Executive Transport Services Inc.), and one might surmise, the same purpose, (And when someone awakes to the public recognition of this datum, expect it to change again, or change ownership, or contract provider, and possibly the aircraft.). . .


More info on the plane

They're either getting sloppy or the just don't give a fuck if we know anymore.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: blink]
    #3599261 - 01/08/05 03:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe we should set up death camps like the Nazis did and burn all the towels head in them. Then there will be peace in the world.

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Invisibleblink
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3601040 - 01/08/05 11:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Are there no other responses to this?

Any Bush supporters read this?


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: blink]
    #3601070 - 01/08/05 11:07 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

If they're terrorists and have/had the intention of harming innocent civilians, then why is it wrong? More than likely sitting in jail means nothing to them, and they are willing to die. Why not use what works?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3601153 - 01/08/05 11:21 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The problem with that thinking what I would consider to be obvious...What is their definition of "terrorist"?.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Rono]
    #3601185 - 01/08/05 11:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
The problem with that thinking what I would consider to be obvious...What is their definition of "terrorist"?.




From http://www.cia.gov/terrorism/faqs.html
"The Intelligence Community is guided by the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d):

?The term ?terrorism? means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

?The term ?international terrorism? means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than one country.

?The term ?terrorist group? means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism."


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Invisibleblink
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3601211 - 01/08/05 11:33 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

that means they can do whatever they want, as long as they classify somebody as a "terrorist"?

"you're a terrorist"

"proove it"

"we can't because you are such a good terrorist!"

"well if I am so good, then why did I get caught?"

"we are better"

it's a circular argument and you know it. There is no reason for this and saying it's to "Make America Safer" is a cop out. It means they are too lazy to do things the right way. The Geneva convention only applies when it's American soldiers being tortured; when it works to their advantage. Otherwise they'll justify anything to simplify their task.


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Invisibleblink
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3601222 - 01/08/05 11:35 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
From http://www.cia.gov/terrorism/faqs.html
"The Intelligence Community is guided by the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d):

?The term ?terrorism? means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

?The term ?international terrorism? means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than one country.

?The term ?terrorist group? means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism."




By their own words, Hiroshima was an international terrorist act.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: blink]
    #3601241 - 01/08/05 11:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I fully agree that is open to abuse, but do you think they would go this far out of their way if they didn't have something? Guantanamo Bay is where they leave the people they're scamming. In my opinion, anyone that gets flown to another country to be interrogated must have done something serious.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: blink]
    #3601345 - 01/08/05 11:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blinkidiot said:
Quote:

daimyo said:
From http://www.cia.gov/terrorism/faqs.html
"The Intelligence Community is guided by the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d):

?The term ?terrorism? means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

?The term ?international terrorism? means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than one country.

?The term ?terrorist group? means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism."




By their own words, Hiroshima was an international terrorist act.




Hiroshima was a part of one country, and thus not international terrorism by their definition.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3602843 - 01/09/05 09:43 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
I fully agree that is open to abuse, but do you think they would go this far out of their way if they didn't have something? Guantanamo Bay is where they leave the people they're scamming. In my opinion, anyone that gets flown to another country to be interrogated must have done something serious.




Serious indeed....they were born in the wrong country with the wrong colored skin.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Rono]
    #3604495 - 01/09/05 04:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

These people are being flown to other countries to be tortured because they have an arab background?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3604573 - 01/09/05 05:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Do you think the same thing would happen if they were Scottish?


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Rono]
    #3604660 - 01/09/05 05:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think the same thing would happen if they were Scottish, American, Canadian, anything, if those in power thought it necessary.

Let's bring this back on topic. What is your opinion of torturing terrorsits(by their definition as stated above) to extract information?


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Rono]
    #3604667 - 01/09/05 05:29 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think if the Scottish had been responsible for terror attack after terror attack, it would. Have they? Have any other singular group of people been responsible for such a huge percentange of terror attacks?


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OfflineyesNick
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: SoopaX]
    #3604973 - 01/09/05 06:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sick of this country.

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: yesNick]
    #3605015 - 01/09/05 06:47 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Depression, anger, and resentment are issues best dealt with in the Physical and Mental Health forum.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3605255 - 01/09/05 07:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'm also disgusted with this.

If the people of the US decide that we need to torture suspected terrorist for national security reasons, then we need to pass a law making it legal. We are supposed to be a nation of laws, not a nation of men.


Those in authority know that such a law could never pass, but claim they can do whatever is necessary for national security? Such lawless actions make us no better than the lawless people we are fighting. This torture is not only a violation of the Constitution and international law, it is also contrary to the desires of the people of this nation. Those who are responsible should be tried for war crimes in an international court. And I mean everybody responsible, all the way up to the president if it turns out he gave the illegal order.

Who is a terrorist anyway? If there are no trials to convict a person of terrorism then it could be anybody labeled such. How long before those on this website who offer info about illegal fungi are labeled terrorist. Maybe they could charge us with conspiracy to manufacture biological weapons. And because the website has an international audience we would all be international terrorists. This new turn of events is very disturbing.

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: shroomydan]
    #3605299 - 01/09/05 08:14 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
I'm also disgusted with this.

If the people of the US decide that we need to torture suspected terrorist for national security reasons, then we need to pass a law making it legal.



There is no law forbiding it. The Geneva Convention is the closest thing to a law, but it is too broad. I agree that such a law should be voted upon and enacted if passed.

Quote:

shroomydan said:
We are supposed to be a nation of laws, not a nation of men.



Is this your ideal, or is this based on something else? A quote from a founding father perhaps?

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Those in authority know that such a law could never pass, but claim they can do whatever is necessary for national security? Such lawless actions make us no better than the lawless people we are fighting.



Just as inaction in opposing it makes one no better than those commiting such acts.

Quote:

shroomydan said:
This torture is not only a violation of the Constitution and international law, it is also contrary to the desires of the people of this nation.



This alleged torture may or may not be in violation of the broad international laws. Without knowing what methods of interrogation were employed there is no way to tell if there was torture.
Non-citizens are not afforded the rights granted in the Constitution, so that point is moot.
It may be contrary to the desires of SOME people of this nation, does that make it wrong? Without a vote on the issue, this too is a moot point.

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Those who are responsible should be tried for war crimes in an international court. And I mean everybody responsible, all the way up to the president if it turns out he gave the illegal order.



Agreed.

Quote:

shroomydan said:Who is a terrorist anyway?



For the sake of this thread I am standing by the definition given in one of my previous posts.

Quote:

shroomydan said:
If there are no trials to convict a person of terrorism then it could be anybody labeled such. How long before those on this website who offer info about illegal fungi are labeled terrorist. Maybe they could charge us with conspiracy to manufacture biological weapons. And because the website has an international audience we would all be international terrorists. This new turn of events is very disturbing.



Agreed. How far are the American people willing to let things go? What should they do in order to protest an abuse of power?


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3605439 - 01/09/05 08:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Non-citizens are not afforded the rights granted in the Constitution, so that point is moot.




Yes, they are. The Constitution applies to anyone on American soil. Thats why we aren't kneecapping illegal aliens to curb the flow across the border.
Quote:


Agreed. How far are the American people willing to let things go? What should they do in order to protest an abuse of power?



Vote him out of office. They clearly didn't.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3605480 - 01/09/05 09:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

shroomydan said:
We are supposed to be a nation of laws, not a nation of men.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Is this your ideal, or is this based on something else? A quote from a founding father perhaps?

This is the basic philosophy of John Locke upon which the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were based. It is the bedrock of all modern democratic nations.

Locke's theory of government replaced the political theory of Thomas Hobbes who advocated absolute monarchy. Both Hobbes and Locke begin with man in a state of nature. In the state of nature there are no laws and each man has a natural right to take anything he wants. In this situation industry and a peaceful prosperous life are not possible because if one man were to build a house or plant a garden another man could simply come by a kill him and take it from him. In order for man to get out of the state of nature and into civilization, individuals must form social contracts which limit there natural rights.  Hobbes said that for peace and industry to prevail, free people had to transfer their natural rights onto a single person, a Sovereign, who would protect the people from one another and insure a peaceful environment where industry was possible. This social contract between the sovereign and his subjects gave the sovereign absolute authority over his subjects and in turn he was obligated to provide them with protection. This was the governing philosophy during the period of absolute monarchies in Europe. Locke took Hobbes's philosophy and made a subtle and profound change. Instead of transferring their rights to a single man who was sovereign, Locke proposed that individuals make a social contract with all other individuals in the nation, making the abstract concept of nation Sovereign instead of a single man. The laws of the nation would be Sovereign, hence a nation of laws, not a nation of men. The law would be written by the people for the people and no citizen of the nation would be above the law. It was Thomas Jefferson et all who wrote the constitution, but it was John Locke who first penned its principle ideas.

I can't quote to you where the constitution forbids torturing foreign nationals who are suspected of a crime. I do know that it prohibits cruel and unusual punishment for crimes, but I guess the torture in this case is not punishment. :smirk:I also know that the Declaration of Independence acknowledges the God given rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to all men, regardless of their national status.

As a veteran I am more familiar with the Geneva Convention which expressly forbids the torture of prisoners of war. The way bush is trying to get around this one is by saying that the terrorist are not prisoners of war and therefore not protected by the Geneva convention. He also says that the are not criminals, and therefore not protected by criminal law. With the monikers "enemy combatant" and "terrorist", he has created a subclass of nonpersons, protected by no existing law. This however is a violation of the bedrock principles of freedom outlined in the preamble of the Declaration of Independence. All men are created equal, with inalienable rights. History has shown that when any organization acts counter it foundational principles, that organization collapses.

I don't know if this evil trend can be reversed, it seems to me that the US has been sliding towards an invalidation of its basic laws for quite some time. This is just another crack in the foundation of a collapsing system.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: shroomydan]
    #3605898 - 01/09/05 10:58 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

shroomydan writes:

This is the basic philosophy of John Locke upon which the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were based. It is the bedrock of all modern democratic nations...

Excellent synopsis of Locke vs Hobbes. Very, VERY well done.

I can't quote to you where the constitution forbids torturing foreign nationals who are suspected of a crime. I do know that it prohibits cruel and unusual punishment for crimes, but I guess the torture in this case is not punishment.

You are correct that it is not a question of punishment at all, but rather a question of information gathering. These people aren't being punished, they are being interrogated.

The way bush is trying to get around this one is by saying that the terrorist are not prisoners of war and therefore not protected by the Geneva convention. He also says that the are not criminals, and therefore not protected by criminal law. With the monikers "enemy combatant" and "terrorist", he has created a subclass of nonpersons, protected by no existing law.

And -- by the definitions in the Geneva Conventions themselves, they are not prisoners of war. They are in fact spies -- a specific subclass of spies. In the early Forties in Europe they were known as saboteurs. Spies receive none of the protections due legitimate soldiers who have been captured on the battlefield, and they never have. This is nothing new, and Bush certainly didn't invent a new "subclass" of "criminals". The "monikers" you refer to are accurate descriptions of the people involved. They are combatants, but not soldiers. They are certainly not "criminals". They are in fact -- by the commonly accepted definition posted earlier in the thread -- terrorists.




pinky


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: SoopaX]
    #3605932 - 01/09/05 11:04 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SoopaX said:
Quote:

daimyo said:
Non-citizens are not afforded the rights granted in the Constitution, so that point is moot.




Yes, they are. The Constitution applies to anyone on American soil.



This is not my understanding of the matter. Please cite your source.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: shroomydan]
    #3605950 - 01/09/05 11:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

As pink has pointed out, the Locke vs Hobbes part of your post was excellent. Thank you, and have 5 shrooms.

As for the rest, I believe that leads to the next necessary discussion. What constitutes torture? How should it be defined(narrow vs broad definition)? Maybe I will make a thread about this next.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Phred]
    #3606027 - 01/09/05 11:33 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

They are certainly not "criminals". They are in fact -- by the commonly accepted definition posted earlier in the thread -- terrorists.


That's the scary part. How do we know that they are in fact "terrorist" unless they have been tried and convicted of terrorism? It seems a simple accusation is enough to warrant the torture. It's also my understanding that most of the prisoners at Git Mo were captured on the battlefield in Iraq; in my view this makes them closer to soldiers than to spies.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: shroomydan]
    #3606125 - 01/09/05 11:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Check the thread titled "Dude, where's my shirt?" The guy pictured there is a terrorist. There is no doubt about it whatsoever -- he was caught redhanded planting bombs under civilian vehicles. It is a certainty he has information on others of his ilk -- the guy he got the bombs from, for one. Are you saying he must not be questioned until he has been convicted in a court of criminal law?

Is it impossible someone might be detained who is totally innocent? No, it's not impossible. But to refrain from interrogating captured terrorists until they have been convicted in a court of law necessarily means more innocents will continue to be blown up who otherwise would not have been. That's not speculation, that's fact.

Despite John F Kerry's view of this situation, it isn't a criminal matter. It's war. To refrain from interrogating captured spies, saboteurs and terrorists in wartime isn't being humane, it's being insane.



pinky


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Phred]
    #3607390 - 01/10/05 10:53 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Just to be clear, pinky, would you grant the US military the right to detain and torture as many people as they like, so long as it's done within what can loosely be defined as a warzone?


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