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Invisibleblink
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An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights
    #3598395 - 01/08/05 02:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm surprise you guys haven't got a topic about this

Here is the plane

Here is the story:

The Washington Post finally breaks the story of CIA torture flights in the domestic press with Jet Is an Open Secret In Terror War(reg req'd). The story has been running internationally for a long time, but now Americans can proudly read about how their tax dollars are being used to finance the operation of a private Gulfstream V to illegally transport people not charged with a crime in any court to countries where the US can torture them by proxy, unseen and unheard.

I put up a diary on torture flights six weeks ago, Bushco's Torture Flights - Proof!, using a story from The Sunday Times in London which had obtained copies of the confidential flight logs for the Gulfstream V. I said then in a comment:
Quote:


The Boeing 737 and Gulfstream 5 appear to be used as prisoner transports. It is rumoured, however, that there are also helicopters at the disposal of the same secret teams which might have a more sinister purpose.




Maybe the United States is the new Argentina: nice beaches, good skiing, delicious steaks, friendly people and a hideous, torturing, corrupt ruling elite.


The WaPo article scrupulously avoids personalising the torture of individuals by quoting those few who have survived and been freed, or interviewing those who have been directly involved. The Sunday Times pulled fewer punches in its coverage, describing the heirarchy of choices open to the CIA:

Bob Baer, a former CIA operative in the Middle East, said: "If you want a serious interrogation you send a prisoner to Jordan. If you want them to be tortured you send them to Syria. If you want someone to disappear . . . you send them to Egypt."

Among the countries where prisoners have been sent by America is Uzbekistan, a close ally and a dictatorship whose secret police are notorious for their interrogation methods, including the alleged boiling of prisoners. The Gulfstream made at least seven trips to the Uzbek capital.

The WaPo overlooks the Boeing 737 used for the same purpose and also owned by Premier Executive Transport, but the journalists have done a good job of backchecking the corporate registration details and establishing that all of the directors of Premier are false identities with recently issued Social Security numbers.

Since the story broke in the Times, the registration of the planes has been changed yet again to disguise them on their rounds. Culver provided the following:

Further data. Gulfstream N379P becomes N8068V: the price of carelessness with flight logs, or notoriety, or just business practice

Don't look for tail number N379P if you are seeking a clandestine transporter of enemy combatants to undisclosed locations for Extraordinary Rendition, i.e., delivery of detainees to foreign locations for advanced interrogation. A straightforward open source analysis reveals that N379P is now N8068V, same serial number (581), same owner (Premiere Executive Transport Services Inc.), and one might surmise, the same purpose, (And when someone awakes to the public recognition of this datum, expect it to change again, or change ownership, or contract provider, and possibly the aircraft.). . .


More info on the plane

They're either getting sloppy or the just don't give a fuck if we know anymore.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: blink]
    #3599261 - 01/08/05 05:45 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe we should set up death camps like the Nazis did and burn all the towels head in them. Then there will be peace in the world.


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Invisibleblink
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3601040 - 01/09/05 01:02 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Are there no other responses to this?

Any Bush supporters read this?


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: blink]
    #3601070 - 01/09/05 01:07 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If they're terrorists and have/had the intention of harming innocent civilians, then why is it wrong? More than likely sitting in jail means nothing to them, and they are willing to die. Why not use what works?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3601153 - 01/09/05 01:21 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The problem with that thinking what I would consider to be obvious...What is their definition of "terrorist"?.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Rono]
    #3601185 - 01/09/05 01:27 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
The problem with that thinking what I would consider to be obvious...What is their definition of "terrorist"?.




From http://www.cia.gov/terrorism/faqs.html
"The Intelligence Community is guided by the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d):

?The term ?terrorism? means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

?The term ?international terrorism? means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than one country.

?The term ?terrorist group? means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism."


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Invisibleblink
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3601211 - 01/09/05 01:33 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

that means they can do whatever they want, as long as they classify somebody as a "terrorist"?

"you're a terrorist"

"proove it"

"we can't because you are such a good terrorist!"

"well if I am so good, then why did I get caught?"

"we are better"

it's a circular argument and you know it. There is no reason for this and saying it's to "Make America Safer" is a cop out. It means they are too lazy to do things the right way. The Geneva convention only applies when it's American soldiers being tortured; when it works to their advantage. Otherwise they'll justify anything to simplify their task.


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Invisibleblink
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3601222 - 01/09/05 01:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
From http://www.cia.gov/terrorism/faqs.html
"The Intelligence Community is guided by the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d):

?The term ?terrorism? means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

?The term ?international terrorism? means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than one country.

?The term ?terrorist group? means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism."




By their own words, Hiroshima was an international terrorist act.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: blink]
    #3601241 - 01/09/05 01:39 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I fully agree that is open to abuse, but do you think they would go this far out of their way if they didn't have something? Guantanamo Bay is where they leave the people they're scamming. In my opinion, anyone that gets flown to another country to be interrogated must have done something serious.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: blink]
    #3601345 - 01/09/05 01:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blinkidiot said:
Quote:

daimyo said:
From http://www.cia.gov/terrorism/faqs.html
"The Intelligence Community is guided by the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d):

?The term ?terrorism? means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

?The term ?international terrorism? means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than one country.

?The term ?terrorist group? means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism."




By their own words, Hiroshima was an international terrorist act.




Hiroshima was a part of one country, and thus not international terrorism by their definition.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3602843 - 01/09/05 11:43 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
I fully agree that is open to abuse, but do you think they would go this far out of their way if they didn't have something? Guantanamo Bay is where they leave the people they're scamming. In my opinion, anyone that gets flown to another country to be interrogated must have done something serious.




Serious indeed....they were born in the wrong country with the wrong colored skin.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Rono]
    #3604495 - 01/09/05 06:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

These people are being flown to other countries to be tortured because they have an arab background?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3604573 - 01/09/05 07:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Do you think the same thing would happen if they were Scottish?


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Rono]
    #3604660 - 01/09/05 07:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think the same thing would happen if they were Scottish, American, Canadian, anything, if those in power thought it necessary.

Let's bring this back on topic. What is your opinion of torturing terrorsits(by their definition as stated above) to extract information?


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: Rono]
    #3604667 - 01/09/05 07:29 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think if the Scottish had been responsible for terror attack after terror attack, it would. Have they? Have any other singular group of people been responsible for such a huge percentange of terror attacks?


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OfflineyesNick
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: SoopaX]
    #3604973 - 01/09/05 08:36 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm sick of this country.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: yesNick]
    #3605015 - 01/09/05 08:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Depression, anger, and resentment are issues best dealt with in the Physical and Mental Health forum.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3605255 - 01/09/05 09:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm also disgusted with this.

If the people of the US decide that we need to torture suspected terrorist for national security reasons, then we need to pass a law making it legal. We are supposed to be a nation of laws, not a nation of men.


Those in authority know that such a law could never pass, but claim they can do whatever is necessary for national security? Such lawless actions make us no better than the lawless people we are fighting. This torture is not only a violation of the Constitution and international law, it is also contrary to the desires of the people of this nation. Those who are responsible should be tried for war crimes in an international court. And I mean everybody responsible, all the way up to the president if it turns out he gave the illegal order.

Who is a terrorist anyway? If there are no trials to convict a person of terrorism then it could be anybody labeled such. How long before those on this website who offer info about illegal fungi are labeled terrorist. Maybe they could charge us with conspiracy to manufacture biological weapons. And because the website has an international audience we would all be international terrorists. This new turn of events is very disturbing.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: shroomydan]
    #3605299 - 01/09/05 10:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
I'm also disgusted with this.

If the people of the US decide that we need to torture suspected terrorist for national security reasons, then we need to pass a law making it legal.



There is no law forbiding it. The Geneva Convention is the closest thing to a law, but it is too broad. I agree that such a law should be voted upon and enacted if passed.

Quote:

shroomydan said:
We are supposed to be a nation of laws, not a nation of men.



Is this your ideal, or is this based on something else? A quote from a founding father perhaps?

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Those in authority know that such a law could never pass, but claim they can do whatever is necessary for national security? Such lawless actions make us no better than the lawless people we are fighting.



Just as inaction in opposing it makes one no better than those commiting such acts.

Quote:

shroomydan said:
This torture is not only a violation of the Constitution and international law, it is also contrary to the desires of the people of this nation.



This alleged torture may or may not be in violation of the broad international laws. Without knowing what methods of interrogation were employed there is no way to tell if there was torture.
Non-citizens are not afforded the rights granted in the Constitution, so that point is moot.
It may be contrary to the desires of SOME people of this nation, does that make it wrong? Without a vote on the issue, this too is a moot point.

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Those who are responsible should be tried for war crimes in an international court. And I mean everybody responsible, all the way up to the president if it turns out he gave the illegal order.



Agreed.

Quote:

shroomydan said:Who is a terrorist anyway?



For the sake of this thread I am standing by the definition given in one of my previous posts.

Quote:

shroomydan said:
If there are no trials to convict a person of terrorism then it could be anybody labeled such. How long before those on this website who offer info about illegal fungi are labeled terrorist. Maybe they could charge us with conspiracy to manufacture biological weapons. And because the website has an international audience we would all be international terrorists. This new turn of events is very disturbing.



Agreed. How far are the American people willing to let things go? What should they do in order to protest an abuse of power?


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: An Open Secret: George Bush and Terror Flights [Re: daimyo]
    #3605439 - 01/09/05 10:59 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Non-citizens are not afforded the rights granted in the Constitution, so that point is moot.




Yes, they are. The Constitution applies to anyone on American soil. Thats why we aren't kneecapping illegal aliens to curb the flow across the border.
Quote:


Agreed. How far are the American people willing to let things go? What should they do in order to protest an abuse of power?



Vote him out of office. They clearly didn't.


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