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OfflineFrog
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I have a good idea!
    #3587209 - 01/06/05 02:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

While belonging to this forum, there has been a lot of shit directed at Christians who believe in God.  I haven't seen the amount of shit that has been flung at Christians flung at, say, Bhuddists, on this forum.  I haven't seen shit flung at any other belief than the Christian belief.

Here's what I want y'all to know:

We all come here looking for answers to questions about life, philosophy, religion, spirituality, etc.  Right? 

Think about it this way, the next time you want to say "baa baa".  I (and some others here, whom you probably know and like) were either raised Christian or we adopted those beliefs at some point in our lives.

I was looking for answers to life a few years ago.  I had gone through a hard divorce.  I lost everything.  I was basically a homeless person, even though I am an attorney.  I was sleeping on my office floor in the downtown section of this bad city.

The only thing I had going for me at that time were my Christian beliefs, and so I thought that based on what I was going through, I would find the answers I was seeking in church.  I was wrong, but not because the church I was attending was so "bad".  I could explain why they couldn't help me, but that's not the purpose of this thread.

Anyways, I was definitely seeking answers. 

Think about this:  I had joined many different forums before landing (and feeling accepted) here.  ADHD forums, Jesus forums, etc. 

I don't even use drugs.  The only drug I use is alcohol.  I haven't been able to use drugs since I was in my early 20s, more than 25 years ago.  Drugs disagree with my body.  Before that, I had done a lot of acid, cocaine, pot, etc.  (laugh if you will at what I call the drugs I used to use...fuck if I know what they are called today.)

When I joined the Shroomery, especially the SandP section of it, I thought I could talk about my beliefs, and I did.  I was slammed a lot.  Wait. I wasn't so much slammed as much as my beliefs were slammed.

But think about this:  If you "live" in a place, and in the place where you live, someone is always ridiculing your beliefs, wouldn't you feel uncomfortable, even though the discomfort wouldn't cause you to give up your beliefs?

Anyways, my point in this thread is that I want to learn.  I like learning in this forum.  There are other Christians here.  We all don't like "organized" religion, or I'll bet we wouldn't be here, right?  :grin: 

So when you see a thread posted that has something to do with being a Christian, keep in mind that we know what y'all have been through.  We have been through it, too.

I have a family.  4 sisters.  They are all CHristian.  They told me I am going to hell.  They will have nothing to do with me.  I am a Christian, however.  :grin:  Isn't that funny????

I'll bet there are other Christians here who feel bad about their beliefs being slammed, when they are also putting up with shit in their own families, because they disagree with the basics.

Do you understand how much it kills discussion for me when, in the middle of someone talking about some Christian belief, or the bible, someone starts talking about how like sheep we are?  How stupid we are?  How evil the Catholic church is?  Etcetera ad nauseum. 

I would love to come here to discuss the bible, or CHristian beliefs, rather than have to go to church or a bible study.  I hate those.  I would rather go to a place like the Shroomery to discuss my Christian beliefs, rather than go to a church, because I know there are like-minded people here.  There are no such people in church.

Even though I can't use drugs, I'm still a rebel.  I play pool 2 or 3 times a week, in a dive bar.  Doesn't that count for anything????

I don't suppose there's any chance that, just for once, we could discuss Christianity or biblical beliefs without talking about sheep, insecurity, etc.?  I mean, come on, think about it, people.  Everyone who believes something different from Christians gets to talk about it without being slammed.  How would you feel if you believed the way I do?  I don't believe that everything that the Christian church teaches is correct.  I would just like to discuss Christianity and the bible without slamming either, the same as we discuss other beliefs or philosophies on this forum.

Okay, done with my rant.  Thanks.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: Frog]
    #3587274 - 01/06/05 03:17 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

English-speaking country... Christian majority... counter-culture website (really it's just a subculture)... is it really a surprise?

If it makes you feel any better, I despise all religions and all forms of dogmatic spirituality. Find your own way. It's the only thing that's real.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisibleblissedout
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: Sclorch]
    #3587327 - 01/06/05 03:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

yeah, sclorch, i kinda feel ya on that point, but frog has some killer strong points, too. way to express yourself, frog! that is the kinda funk that i like!! yeah, i hear all kinds of views, here, and the christian is the most abhorred...why is that? anywho, good debate guys, shine on.


--------------------



:murray:


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Offlinefranco_on
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: Sclorch]
    #3587335 - 01/06/05 03:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
Find your own way. It's the only thing that's real.



I think she has found her own way, it is Christianity.

I think you are making a valid point Frog. It is a bit of a respect thing I guess. Do understand that many people in here are ex-Christians and have found the religion to be lacking in some way or that it is no longer valid.

I wish I could discuss Christianity a bit better, I do not know a lot about it. I just got a copy of the bible, maybe someday soon after I read it I will be better versed.

Good luck converting the masses.

Have a safe journey through life,
Chef


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OfflineFrog
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: Sclorch]
    #3587345 - 01/06/05 03:41 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

But see, that's the point, Sclorch.  You despise all religions and all forms of dogmatic spirituality.  I am picking my way through, and trying to figure out what it is God wants me to do, in spite of what the "organized" religions say I should do.

See, I believe in God, in spite of "organized religion".  From where do you want me to get my information, if I am hell-bent on being a Christian???  From CHURCH???? 

When people come on this forum and immediately jump on Christians, how can we Christians have any kind of illuminating discussion?  I would hate to think that the only way I could discuss my beliefs is by joining a Christian forum.  Those are not to my liking, for many of the reasons for which people like you post against religion.  Of course, though, I would not join any kind of "spirituality" forum and bash anyone's beliefs, regardless of what anyone believed. 

We all know that "man" "made" "religion".  However!!!!!!!!!  There are some of us who want to think outside the box!  I don't buy everything the Catholic church teaches, even though I was raised Catholic from birth until I was 18, when I told my parents I refused to attend their church any longer.  See?????  We're not all sheep.

I am finding my own way.  If I was a "baaaa-baaaa", why wouldn't I be on a "Christian" forum? 

You know what?  Christians haven't cornered the market on being assholes.  PEOPLE ARE ASSHOLES, regardless of their faith.

Ped?  You are a Bhuddist, right?  Are you ever an asshole?  :grin:

Okay, I'll stop.  But you know what?  I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS MY BELIEFS WITH PEOPLE LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO BELONG HERE WITHOUT BEING TOLD THAT MY HEAD IS UP MY ASS!!!  Okay?  :grin:

And Sclorch, I don't mind if you despise religion, God, whatever.  I don't even dislike you for it.  In fact, I LIKE YOU!!!  I like all the skeptics on this forum.  I'm a quite a skeptic myself, outside of my Christian beliefs.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: franco_on]
    #3587356 - 01/06/05 03:44 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

franco_on said:
Good luck converting the masses.
Chef




Chef, I read your entire post, and thanks, I think you understood quite well.

I quoted the portion that I quoted above because I AM NOT HERE TO CONVERT ANYONE!!!  I just want to talk about my beliefs with others.  And if some skeptic chimes in with something that is in opposition to what I believe, that's fine!  Just don't call me a suck-ass sheep!:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefranco_on
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: Frog]
    #3587375 - 01/06/05 03:52 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I was not clear. I meant good luck converting people to be more accepting to discussing Christianity. I realized you are not here to convert people in terms of religion. It would be kind of hypocritical if you were and you did not sound that way.

Oh yea fell across this post a whee bit down the list, kind of funny and coincidental:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3587100/an/0/page/0


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Offlineonlyme
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: franco_on]
    #3587393 - 01/06/05 03:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I just think that so many of us have gotten tired of those people on the internet telling us that we are heathens and that we are going to hell, and trying to convert us to their way of thinking, all in the same breath, that there was a back lash on sites such as this. (Notice that Buddhists don't have missionaries nor try to convert anybody.) I don't mind discussing Christianity or any religion, as long as it can be discussed rationally, without it turning into an heated argument over whom is correct. They are beliefs and no belief is better than any other belief. But most Christians take it all too personal.

I (and i'm sure many here such as yourself) am simply against organized religion and fundamentalism of any kind.

Truth adheres to no one religion.


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Offlineonlyme
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: onlyme]
    #3587419 - 01/06/05 04:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

And many people assume that if you are a Christian posting on the forum, then you are here to convert everybody, as it happens all the time.

If you are here just to discuss beliefs (and it sems like you are), then i would have no problem joining in the discussion without puting down Christianity. In fact i try to stay away from doing that in any forum, even if Christian missionaries are there ready to dunk my head. :smile:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: onlyme]
    #3587483 - 01/06/05 04:25 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with you.  I understand why people hate Christianity, religion, etc.  My family has told me that I am going to hell.  I don't believe that any more, but at the time that I was told I was going to hell, I was young, and I felt really bad, and I felt that I might as well turn away from God, since He had obviously turned away from me, as my family had told me, then.  I turned away from God for a long time because of my family.

You know what?  Now, based on certain experiences, etc., I love God to death.  I don't kneel.  I don't fold my hands together when I talk to Him.  I even use cuss words when I talk to Him sometimes. 

You know what else?  God never does anything to get even with me for all the wicked things I do.  :grin:  I don't really do anything wicked.  But I DO use cuss words.  :grin:

And I don't go to church, I don't kneel when I talk to Him, and I don't thump a bible.

I am always me, the way I am here.  I talk about things like God, etc.  I just am me.  I believe in God.  I just want to be able to talk about Him sometimes somewhere.

Even in the pool bar people are kind about things I say about God, even if they don't believe.  I don't even mind if they laugh.  I'm not trying to convert.  I just can't help mentioning the most important person in my life. 

I understand if there are people who don't think like me.  But can't they just not read a thread about Christianity or God, if it is offensive to them? 

Okay, I have a good point here.  I don'[t use shrooms.  I have already posted somewhere that I don't use drugs except alcohol (and Adderall!). 

Does anyone keep track of how many threads are started in P and S that have to do with spirituality and shrooms, etc.?  I never post in those, because it's not my place. 

If I can't use the drugs, or if I don't believe in using the drugs, why would I impose my negativity on others that believe differently?  I could easily post, "Oh, drugs are bad for you."  or "Those of you who use drugs of any type are just trying to create a different reality for yourselves.  You should be happy the way you are." 

Obviously, because I don't understand mushrooms, and I can't use them, how would I be appropriate in discussing them, even if to denigrate them?

Same for Christianity. 

Anyways, we can turn this into a "polite" thread on how christians are mean and how they tell us we are going to hell.  We can have a big exhale here, if you want.  Because really, I agree with you! 

Like I said, my family does things  like throwing out records (I'm old) because there might be backward masking, and don't hang a kitchen witch because of the devil, and don't see a Harry Potter movie because witches are evil.  (I've read all the Harry Potter books. :grin: )


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Edited by Frog (01/07/05 07:49 AM)


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Offlineonlyme
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: Frog]
    #3587508 - 01/06/05 04:34 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds like your idea of God is very personal, which is how i think it should be.

I would like to stay and chat with you some more, but its late (or early) and i gotta get to bed.

(And fuck and shit and damn and hell are merely words with no more meaning than what we put to them....so feel free to cuss away;)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: Sclorch]
    #3587541 - 01/06/05 04:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
English-speaking country... Christian majority... counter-culture website (really it's just a subculture)... is it really a surprise?




Yes, I understand.  If I REALLY wanted to be with like minds, wtf am I doing here? 

You guys are, maybe, more fun?  More intelligent? 

Please don't ban me to a christian conservative website.

You know what else?  I AM A REPUBLICAN!!!  :lol:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: onlyme]
    #3587806 - 01/06/05 07:32 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"They are beliefs and no belief is better than any other belief."

I disagree. There are justified beliefs and there are unjustified beliefs. If I am standing in front of a tree and I believe that I am standing in front of a tree, then I have a justified belief. If I believe that I am standing in a treeless desert then I have an unjustified belief.

Beliefs differ in validity depending on the way in which they were gained, and how they map to reality.

What I do believe, however, is that all beliefs should be TREATED equally.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: Frog]
    #3587871 - 01/06/05 08:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I must ask you, how do you truly know there is a God and that the bible knows who "he" is? To really KNOW something is true you must first define it and prove that it exists.

I ask a very simple yet very revealing question: does God look like a human?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: psyka]
    #3587886 - 01/06/05 08:58 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

when discussing subjects such as religion you have to accept a certain amount shit mate, even on religious boards people are slam dunking each other on similar issues.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: JacquesSauniere]
    #3587967 - 01/06/05 09:40 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

When I have seen a Muslim post on here they got immense amounts of shit...'camel fuckering religion' got thrown in nuff times.

As I see it there are 2 aspects of Christianity:

1. the Christ consciousness itself, this is a metaphor for enlightenment etc and a thing that all religions speak of in their uncaged unwritten ethos

2. Organised Christianity per ce - this is the same as all religions too, a bunch of patriarchal men hijack the idea of enlightenment and conceptualise it; breeding mumbo-jumbo of their liking, and fitting every little individual person into the lower echalons of the power structure they create. Using the threat of the anti-christ to keep it that way and keep people in line.
Even this can offer sollace to many who use the church as their community and support network, plus it gives rules and shape to those who need it/can't escape it. Rules which are usually observed with fluid double standards by the masters.


I think Jesus was a dude. He was not a Christian, he was free. People labeled him Christ in order to express his enlightenment. He was infact a rebel against religion and empire. His legacy was however warped and the fast dying Roman Empire saw a chance for revival through his name (great pr), and it began to extend its tentacles out with a new name and with a stronger, yet more subtle, grip than ever - after all it was pretty easy to scare people into doing whatever you want by saying wrathful God is on your side, and playing on their good nature, superstition and need for spirit. Especially when you own what is effectively the only book in existence and a great big awe inspiring building to conduct mythos from. Jesus name was catching on like wildfire....they had to get on top of the legend - and by golly didn't they do a good job!


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: Frog]
    #3587971 - 01/06/05 09:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Some of my best friends are Christians :wink:

Seriously: my two best friends are Christians. One is a Mormon (whoops, Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints but I prefer to say Mormon or Utah Saint) and the other is a free-wandering Christian with a special interest in the deeper mystique behind Christianity.

Now I am not at all a Christian, I'm best described as a Pagan. (Shaman/Wiccan would be closer) There are many things I oppose in the view of Christianity and there are many things they oppose in my Pagan viewpoint. Nontheless the Cross and the Pentacle reign side by side whenever we trip.

We profoundly disagree on certain matters (I believe it's totally wrong to rip a "Devil" from the All-Encompassing One and use him as ascapegoat for all you don't like to see and they think it totally wrong to actually merge God and Devil into one and declare the greatest horrors of humanity to be God's Will too) but we have agreed that we fundamentally disagree, that debating truely opposing stances only leads to one-eighth' worth of bitching :grin: and that we better engage in respectful discussion on where we meet rather then focus on where we part and trying to convert.
We agree conversion should come inside out, not outside in.

I readily slip into their mythos and symbolism. We often end up discussing things as diverse as the divinity of Godesses and the Gods of old and for instance whether we ourself would eat of the Apple from the Forbidden Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden, thus expelling humanity from Paradise yet bestowing upon them the gift of Knowledge.

I see that as strictly symbolic, and symbolisms are universal independent of Religion. If you are not a Christian but regard the breaking of the bread and sharing of the wine as symbols for (among thing) the dividing up of the Earths nourishments of the body and nourisment of the spirit and regard the fact that according to the symbol of the all-knowing one all deserved an equal share, follower and traitor alike, then you can actually take a seat and discuss the deeper meanings of Christ's Last Supper while the mighty LSD throws rainbows all around you and you're eating a fresh veggie salad on Turkish bread.

And that, I believe, should be a message for all of us.
We all have our own beliefs and disagreements. Since we all want to derive a satisfactory experience from being on S&P it seems only natural that we should not toughen up and take sides but rather look for points of agreement and in friendly fashion state where our opinions differ.

I believe we all should get off our high horse and sacrifice some strict enforcement of our dogmas. If you want to fight the existance of a God or fight the delusion of a God, you end up fighting. This can never be resolved. Conversion to any idea or stance can never be enforced, it can only happen deep within one's self where logic and dogma alike hold no meaning.

In my view we all must aim for mutual respect in our postings. No matter how hard we argue, people only change because they choose to change AND because deep within us, beyond our grasp, a switch is flipped.

If you can't agree with the dogma, look for the symbolism. Most symbolisms are readily discussable if you get down to it's core.

Whatever the topic, you can choose to disagree. Whatever the point, you can always form a counterpoint. Discussion can only be "won" if the people involved open their minds.
But people will actually close their minds when they feel they are under attack.

So let us accept we disagree on fundamental issues, that this is unresolvable and look for the Good in eachother's stances. For mutual Spiritual/Personal Growth all minds should be open. And minds only unfold like the sea anemone: when they percieve no threat, otherwise they quickly retract in an armour of bone.

Can't we all just *try to* get along?


--------------------
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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: Asante]
    #3588016 - 01/06/05 09:55 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup: cjay, but i wonder, have you read the davinci code lately, lol


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: CJay]
    #3588043 - 01/06/05 10:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

a bunch of patriarchal men hijack the idea of enlightenment and conceptualise it




heh heh - did u see that - this is why language is so difficult...and why they struck big with The Book.

'the idea of enlightenment' can be a conceptualisation in itself - however I am trying to express the pure unbriddled form of feeling that knows not the bounds of human linguistic duality. This can be awfully hard to express unless the listener and speaker both appreciate the realativity of what is spoken, appreciating what is signposted....and not the sign.

Organised religion learnt to use the signposts....and put up great huge mental billboards everywhere....and took over peoples minds by not allowing what was the other side to show through. For that means loss of control and heirarchy.
----

If one is to believe the scriptures word for word...Jesus had a bit of a thing for The Father. perhaps a metaphor? A signpost? No better word existed to express the numinous? Or was he just stuck in the ole familiar personification of the desert God of his forefathers?

hmmmmm

be free


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: I have a good idea! [Re: JacquesSauniere]
    #3588070 - 01/06/05 10:15 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

never read the davinci code.....

I evolved a lot of thought myself since I was pretty into the church as a youngster....till I saw the hypocracy coming through more and more. I rejected the church in favour of freedom and a search for the 'Christ consciousness' (or whatever you want to call it) by any means and without any rules.

Hey that's what anyone kool in history - including our man Jesus - did

I feel pretty damn good nowadays! :grin:...I supose though that I always did. Feeling the spectrum of effects that is life and its emotions...

And I feel this huge 'space', kind of anything one wants it to be, but overiding as unexplainable wonderfulness, and I see the energy of the universe morphing and flowing as the world turns beneath my feet.

Soul swallows me up and for it I have no names.

-----

Of course my ideas have been crystallised and given wings by my precursors....truly original thought is a rare thing

I had a great teacher in India who drew from all  religions
I undertook a lot of meditation and learnt to make life my meditation.
I read a lot of quantum physics and other science
A few books on religion including (some of) The Texts from most of the world religions and(du du duhh) The Good Book
Plenty of Terence McKenna - who said so much I had been grasping for a way to express
And I can recommend Rianne Eisler too.
Oh Lets not leave Robert Anton Wilson out - cosmic trigger just about saved my bacon when I found it. Aged about 18 I was lost deep in chapel perilous when Robert came to save the day.
Plenty of proper literature - I studied English Lit as a degree.
A few other books on symbolism and shamanism - The cosmic serpent really sticks out as interesting and help crystalise my thoughts on entering one (of the myriad) of levels of consciousness. I even attempted to (make life) fix my girlfriend's DNA with all of these springboards and a lot of *ahem* practicals. So far so good!
Metaphors swirl and we play our parts....each one a key.

It's amazing how deep the universe is and how many layers are flowing one into another, one from another, one within another and one without another.

Books are not actually necessary - just finding that space in your heart and letting yourself fall in.....aaaah

All is
----
isbe
--
one :sun:
---

make I sense? I wonder if I can express what I truly mean - ah well I certainly feel it


Edited by CJay (01/06/05 11:12 AM)


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