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OfflineDIGIT4LBOY
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Jesus is our savior!
    #3587100 - 01/06/05 02:23 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Can someone please explain to me how we were all saved when jesus gave his life for us? Seriously I don't understand how that works. Thanks.
:smile: :smile: :confused:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: DIGIT4LBOY]
    #3587136 - 01/06/05 02:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

This is an extremeloy dangerous discussion in this forum. It's like "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

I would love to tell you what I know, but if we discuss this, then most likely the people who hate Christianity will pop up and tell us how evil Christianity is.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: DIGIT4LBOY]
    #3587152 - 01/06/05 02:40 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Wow, that's a very profound and important question. Thanks for asking. I will make an attempt to answer before tomorrow. What made salvation possible was that Jesus was both truely God and truely man; otherwise it would not have worked. I'll write something and post it here later.

Peace.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: Frog]
    #3587154 - 01/06/05 02:40 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

let them say what they want. who cares? if you can answer the guys question for him , you should!

dont let youself be bullied into silence  :thumbup:


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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Offlinecrazyman
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: Frog]
    #3587160 - 01/06/05 02:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

***(This is an extremeloy dangerous discussion in this forum. It's like "damned if you do, damned if you don't".)***


What the fuck?


--------------------
I want to live in Northern Exposure. Ed Chigliak would be my pal.



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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: Frog]
    #3587181 - 01/06/05 02:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

As per the new rules for this forum those folks are not welcome in this thread.

The discussion here is how Jesus's death and resurrection saves humanity, not if it saves humanity.

So to anyone who wishes to discuss the pros and cons, logical fallacies etc. of Christianity please start a new thread. This one is about divine revelation and therefore need not be subjected to the skeptical method.

Thanks in advance.


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OfflineDIGIT4LBOY
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: Frog]
    #3587200 - 01/06/05 02:54 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe this would be better off in the culinary arts forum? Is there something in the bible I can look at that says something about it? or does it just say it works because GOD said so and thats how it is? Just point me somewhere if you know something. Don't let the christian haters discourage your from a discussion in a spirituality discussion forum.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: shroomydan]
    #3587236 - 01/06/05 03:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
As per the new rules for this forum those folks are not welcome in this thread.

The discussion here is how Jesus's death and resurrection saves humanity, not if it saves humanity.

So to anyone who wishes to discuss the pros and cons, logical fallacies etc. of Christianity please start a new thread. This one is about divine revelation and therefore need not be subjected to the skeptical method.

Thanks in advance.




Well, hell, I wish I had read this post before I went through the thought processes and trouble of posting my thread on christianity discussions being accepted.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: DIGIT4LBOY]
    #3587259 - 01/06/05 03:12 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DIGIT4LBOY said:
Maybe this would be better off in the culinary arts forum? Is there something in the bible I can look at that says something about it? or does it just say it works because GOD said so and thats how it is? Just point me somewhere if you know something. Don't let the christian haters discourage your from a discussion in a spirituality discussion forum.




No, nevermind me.  I guess it's okay to discuss this here. 

OH HAPPY DAY!!!

Sorry.  I am so weird, I know.  I was being sarcastic in my initial post on this thread.  I apologize.  Lately, I think I have become jaded.  I'm trying very hard to back away from that position.  I never used to be jaded before. 

IT'S A NEW DAY!!!

:heart: to all here at the shroomery, skeptics and believers (in ANYTHING) alike!!!!


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: DIGIT4LBOY]
    #3587662 - 01/06/05 05:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I can understand why you would ask that question, the doctrine behind it is kind of confusing. I was brought up as a christian and I had the same question. I am fimiliar with the bible and I think I could give you a theologically sound analogy:

A company like, say, Coca-cola for example has a trademark on their logo. They own the rights to it's use. In other words, you couldn't just slap a Coca-cola logo on your homemade soda and sell it to a supermarket and not expect to get sued.

In Genisis (old testament) 1:27 we read: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him..." In Paul's letter to the Corinthians Ch.1 vs. 19 it says: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple...which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (italics added) So in other words, God owns the trade mark to our image (which is his image), or our body. We are sort of like a 'franchise' of God. He decides how he wants his 'logo' (image) represented. He sets boundaries in the form of 'commandments' to show us what is appropriate use of his image; if we trespass those boundaries then a legal penalty is imposed.

The thing is, this is a 'family' business. God is the C.E.O. of the universe, but he's also our dad, and he doesn't want to prosecute his own children. On the other hand if he doesn't allow justice to be fulfilled it would ruin his image (literally, when we brake the 'commandments' we are disgracing his image). This is implied by Paul in his second letter to his son Timothy Ch.3 vs.2-5 "For men shall be...Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof..." (italics added).

So God is faced with a dilemma. How could justice and mercy be satisfied? There would have to be an arbatrator, a mediator, a 'middle-man'. That's where Jesus comes in. In order to be able to assume our legal burden, he could not have a criminal record himself-- if he did he would be in the same boat as us and he would be unqualified to be our advocate. There are many verses in the Bible that say explicitly that Jesus was in the "express image" of God, so he had not tainted God's 'logo'. There's alot of foreshadowing in the old-testiment about 'a lamb without blemish and without spot' being given as a ransom for sin; all that stuff ties in.

Anyway, Jesus was chosen to bear our legally due punishment, and the prescribed punishment was since the days of Adam: Death, as well as separation from God. So in order for the debt to be paid in full Jesus had to both die and expirience a separation from God equivilent to our delinquency. In the garden of gethsemane and on the cross, Jesus expirienced this agonizing 'separation' from God which caused him to ask, "...My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46).

When Jesus assumed our legal punishment, he also aquired ownership of us as God's 'franchise'. God "the Father" still owns the rights to his image, but now the management is transfered into the hands of Jesus. This is how he is able to forgive sin, because he paid for our sin so we are directly indebted to him. Back to Corinthians 1 in vs.20 "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

There you go, that's the theological basis for the 'atonement' of Jesus Christ. Wheather you accept it as true or wheather you take it as a metaphor of principle depends on your faith.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: Frog]
    #3587709 - 01/06/05 05:59 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

yah...supposidly he was a physical example of gods love...people see what they beleive and belive what they see. so if one was to believe in god thats totally faith. i think jesus was used as a human to which other humans could relate to. thus if anyone who reads about the life of jesus and "beleives" the whole story (son of god, crusifiction, raised from the dead, etc.) then they will be saved from____**?....and have everlasting life.

**not sure.

its easier to believe a story about a man than it is to belive in somethin/one that you can never see.

john 3:16-for god so loved the worl that he gave his only begotten son. that whosoever belives in him will not perish but have everlasting life.



oh...and (i dont beleive this) if you beleive in him and confess with your lips that jesus christ is lord you will be saved from the firey depths of hell and go to live in heaven in a manson and walk the streets of gold! and since jesus (having no choice) was crusified for us (what a nice guy) he then becomes "OUR SAVIOR"

im not christian..personally i use the Bible to help me in my quest for truth. the bible is a great source for those who belive in reincarnation,oneness,etc. the bible is today, way to watered down to read it and get the real meaning of what took place, and what was said. i think. so how did jesus save us???? HE DIDNT, he was just an example. we have to save ourselves...by searching for truth and knowledge.


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


Edited by uriahchase (01/06/05 06:01 AM)


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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: soulmotion]
    #3587710 - 01/06/05 06:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

wasn't jesus a mortal being, a prophet and messenger of god, but who decided that he was the son of god, since when did god marry? im not taking the mick here. virgin mary in fact wasn't a virgin as she had other children.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: JacquesSauniere]
    #3587712 - 01/06/05 06:02 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

mary had other kids AFTER Jesus!!!get it straight.


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: uriahchase]
    #3587716 - 01/06/05 06:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

so you agree that the other children she conceived and therefore she was no longer a virgin?

also which testament should on follow, the old or the new which most go by which was written 4 to 5 hundred years after the death of Jesus christ?


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: JacquesSauniere]
    #3587757 - 01/06/05 06:31 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

do do not agree that she wasnt a virgin when she became pregnant with jesus(according to the bible) only after she and joseph were married and had sex..was she no longer a virgin. who cares which text?! dont "follow" either they are books....with lots of knowledge and facts about our history both contain good info. but dont read the bible and beleive exactly what it says...since it wasn't written in english at first and has been dummied down for hundreds of years to make a best seller instead of a history and theological textbook.


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


Edited by uriahchase (01/06/05 06:32 AM)


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OfflineJacquesSauniere
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: uriahchase]
    #3587786 - 01/06/05 07:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

right, but i didnt make the comment that she wasnt a virging at the time she gave birth to christ, i just made the point that she quite possibly isnt one if she has had other children conceived.

if you dont follow either and want to now come across as though you are not that bothered for the facts then why respond to my message with caps . . .

mary had other kids AFTER Jesus!!!get it straight


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: DIGIT4LBOY]
    #3587810 - 01/06/05 07:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

This is what happens when you take biblical tales that are filled with symbolical and metaphorical wisdom and morals, too literally; confusion arises.

"There are indeed some secrets in the bible, and some very subversive ones, but they are all so muffled up in complications, in archiac symbols and ways of thinking, that Christianity has become incredibly difficult to explain to a modern person. That is, unless you are content to water it down to being good and trying to imitate Jesus, but no one ever explains just how to do that."
-Alan Watts



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: DIGIT4LBOY]
    #3588232 - 01/06/05 11:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The idea of salvation is the key objective in judaic-christian religions. The concept of salvation is the same concept of life after death. IMHO, this after life is part of the spiritual/material cycle every individual experiences during his existence.

If you look at the universe at an structural level, you'll notice that everything tends to evolve, create and expand, that's the nature behind the concept of life and its relation with giving and loving. That's also the main objective of the creator for this universe.

The contrary of giving and loving acts exactly on the opposite side. It contracts and destroys, it means death at an existential level, beyond matter and spirit.

Jesus is considered as a savior because his example of life and his teachings are according to the objective of the universe. He and his message inflates peoples heart with what is needed for everyone to achieve a spiritual evolution, which is exactly the opposite of "de-evolution", aimed towards destruction.

IMHO, the word "salvation" in religious/spiritual terms has a very obscure meaning. People don't quite understand what is being saved and why. I'm also not sure about my own theories, but i believe one can achieve a more accurate model of how things work, if we manage to understand those messages (religious writings) more at an individual/personal/spiritual level than at an social/institutional/religious level.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: DIGIT4LBOY]
    #3588251 - 01/06/05 11:16 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

He redeemed the world of sin because he - as the son of God - was sacrificed, just like Jews around that time sacrificed sheep and goats to redeem their personal sins. For more information about scapegoatism, read Ren? Girard's "The Scapegoat".


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleShroomOmatic
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Re: Jesus is our savior! [Re: crazyman]
    #3588289 - 01/06/05 11:27 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

crazyman said:
***(This is an extremeloy dangerous discussion in this forum. It's like "damned if you do, damned if you don't".)***


What the fuck?




dude he means its like there are to many different religions and you could say how he died for us and offend some jewish guy or hindi. Thats why im not sayin nothin lol.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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