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Offline7th
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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #361374 - 07/26/01 12:32 PM (22 years, 8 months ago)

It's clear that you don't understand nothing of what i have said (maybe it's for my bad english, sorry...), so i will try to explain better:
I saw a see of people (i wish i can show some picture in a near future) that are TOTALY PACIFIC, i saw SOME guy throwing rock against police, and i SAW police throw tear -gas against us, i SAW police beat us, i SAW police arrest us (that was there only with pacific intention)
And when i say SOME guys, it means that at least 3000 (this is the number of provoker estimeted from police agency) people was in Genova with unpacific intentions (i.e Black bloc), it means (if you do some computation) that provocker are only 1% of 300000 ; this incline me to affirm that the movement anti g8 was (excuse me, is) pacific...
I don't pretend to show anything! as i've said i tell only what i have experienced, it's obvious that is my personal interpretation of events.
...in Italy rights are the same of these of any other CIVIL country, but what is happen in genoa the 20-21is not civil.
laters



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GENOA [Re: 7th]
    #361418 - 07/26/01 01:57 PM (22 years, 8 months ago)

****that provocker are only 1% of 300000 ****

There were not 300,000 people at the demonstration so your figures are wrong...i'm betting that it's more like 10% of the people are causing trouble..it all comes down to guilty by association.

Lets get something strait, i support people's right to demonstrate. The problem is that the 10% or more of the people want to become violent and the mob mentality erupts. Even though 90% or less people are "passive" (non violent) it is their responsibility to calm the violent protesters. Either that or the police will do it.

****but what is happen in genoa the 20-21is not civil****

Your right.....and the 10% or so should be ashamed of themselves...as should the 90%

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


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Offlinemm.
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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #361444 - 07/26/01 02:47 PM (22 years, 8 months ago)

There is no responsablitiy in law for a peacfull demonstrator to prevent a violent demonstrator from commiting their actions. It is not an offence to 'fail to prevent a riot' - most of those arrested have been deported without charge. Do you really think the police should beat and torture people who have not broken the law? If it were illegal to congregate in a place frequented by violent people, then i could see your point of view - the police would be 'doing their job'. The demonstrations were not unlawfull assemblies so i dont see how you can justify such violent and indiscriminate police action.

Now the
mainstream media are reporting the brutality.

Edited by mm. on 07/26/01 03:50 PM.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #361450 - 07/26/01 02:58 PM (22 years, 8 months ago)

****There is no responsablitiy in law for a peacfull demonstrator to prevent a violent demonstrator from commiting their actions. ****

Exactly!!! not in the law...Therefor it's up to the police or "peacekeepers" to stop the violence then they accept the guilty by association situation.. With this said the 90% of the people would get their message across a lot better if they could talk some sense into those wackjobs.

****most of those arrested have been deported without charge****

that's just too bad...it's not their country and must respect the country's laws. Is that hard to understand?..it's called being responsible.

****Do you really think the police should beat and torture people who have not broken the law? ****

No i do not think they have the right to do that, however you seem to think that throwing rocks and conspiring to break the law is not breaking the law.

****If it were illegal to congregate in a place frequented by violent people, then i could see your point of view ****

every demonstration has been violent

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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Offline7th
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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #361861 - 07/27/01 06:15 AM (22 years, 8 months ago)

I don't understand on what statistic you say that there weren't ~300000 people...If you have read (but i don't pretend that you learn italian) even only one Italian journal monday 23 you could see that this number is not my invention. Anyway we could stay here and discuss about numbers at infinite, but this is not my intention (and i wish neither your).

Even if is not a responsability (for the law) of demostrators to calm the violent, i can affirme that this has happened.

7th



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: GENOA [Re: 7th]
    #361925 - 07/27/01 09:44 AM (22 years, 8 months ago)

I have changed my opinion on the incident in which the protestor was killed. I have learned a couple new things about fire extinguishers being used as weapons.

A fire extinguisher IS a deadly weapon. In the LA riots a fire extinguisher was one of the weapons used to assult the truckdriver Reginold Denny.

Second, during the the 1970's/80's the humble fire extinguisher was one of the more popular containments for various explosives/incendiaries used against the U.S military in Europe by the "Red Army Faction"/Meinhoff groups. Usually under the driver's seat with a pressure fuse. But such a device - delivered by hand with a timer would accomplish the same thing of course.



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Offlinemm.
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Re: GENOA [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #361967 - 07/27/01 11:29 AM (22 years, 8 months ago)

Shit..yer.. hands are a deadly weapon. Someone in my home town was strangled by someones hands in 1975, if you see someone moving their hands in your direction, better shoot them between the eyes pronto.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #361997 - 07/27/01 01:02 PM (22 years, 8 months ago)

it looks as though your argument is crumbling.....boy i'm beginning to feel sorry for you. :(

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinemm.
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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #362030 - 07/27/01 02:05 PM (22 years, 8 months ago)

The opposite in fact. I was just amazed at how someone could change their whole view on the protest, after finding out that a fire extinguisher is officaly a 'deadly weapon' in some country 1000's of miles away. You are basing your justification for the illegal, indiscriminate, beatings and torture of inocent people, on the fact that they failed (not nesscesarily without trying) to stop the violent actions of others.



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #362066 - 07/27/01 03:22 PM (22 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

I was just amazed at how someone could change their whole view on the protest, after finding out that a fire extinguisher is officaly a 'deadly weapon' in some country 1000's of miles away.




Reginold Denny was in LA county CA, not some country thousands of miles away. And for all those pigs knew it could've been a bomb too. That country thousands of miles away you mentioned was a lot closer to Italy.

BTW, it really seems you are grasping at straws comparing a bludgoning tool/potential explosive device to human hands.

If I was a LEO and some dude in a ski mask was attacking me or my partner in my vehicle with what I believed to be a potentialy deadly weapon I would neutralize the threat. That's all I can do is go on what I believe is right under circumstances.

If the guy in the ski mask was not wearing a ski mask and violently assaulting LEO's with potentialy deadly weapons he would still be alive and his mother wouldn't have lost her son.

But I guess the mentality here is more like kill the fuckin' pigs because they are worthless scum that doesn't have a family and if they die than good and their family won't miss them. More than a litle insensitive in my humble opinion.

Bottom line is if there wasen't rioters in masks attacking LEO's with bludgoning tools that have the same appearance as bombs somtimes used by terrorists then it wouldn't have occoured.

And my initial opinion was from what I saw on MSNBC from the initial reports before they even had the full story and I bought the propaganda. But only briefly. It looks like the misleading first impression has set in stone the opinions of some on the subject.

Well, that's my .02 cents.

Edited by Rail_Gun on 07/27/01 04:25 PM.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #363535 - 07/30/01 12:01 PM (22 years, 7 months ago)

****I was just amazed at how someone could change their whole view on the protest, after finding out that a fire extinguisher is officaly a 'deadly weapon' in some country 1000's of miles away****

That shows that you are indeed close-minded...either that or you choose to be....for the record i haven't wavered one bit as to my position and in the future respond to those you want to debate.

****You are basing your justification for the illegal, indiscriminate, beatings and torture of inocent people, on the fact that they failed (not nesscesarily without trying) to stop the violent actions of others.****

Sorry your wrong and becomming desperate...but i don't blame you. I've been saying that any protester that hurls anything at the police that can seriously hurt someone needs to be arrested. In this instance it was a split minute decision that the cop had to make and unfortunatly the loser protester lost. As for the passive protesters, they are guilty by association. It's sad but true. They should of made an attempt to calm their own people...i am betting that no attempt was made.



Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinemm.
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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #363576 - 07/30/01 01:01 PM (22 years, 7 months ago)

The law alows the use of 'reasonable force' to defend oneself, and no more. Reasonable force in the circumstances might involve the use of CS gas, warning shots etc.. A lethal shot would not be reasonable force in the circumstances, and reversing over the body would certainly be excess force - there was a clear escape route for the vehicle. I agree, attempting to injure the police is wrong and should warrant arrest, but what is this 'guilty by association'. This does not exists in the law on this side of the atlantic. Unless someone actually commits an offence, such as 'conspiracy to riot, or 'incitement to riot' they are innocent. The vast majority of the poeple there commited no offences, yet were attacked by the police. 'But they should have tried to stop the violent minority' may be justification for the violent beatings and gassing in your eyes, but it is not in the eyes of the law. They were participating in a legal assembly under the "Freedom of Expression" granted to them under the European Human Rights Act. Berlusconi's deputy, Fini, is a member of the fascist party founded by Mussolini's daughter, and there has been a history of far-right elements pervading the Italian Police so it doesnt makke these actions too surprising.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #363585 - 07/30/01 01:16 PM (22 years, 7 months ago)

****The law alows the use of 'reasonable force' to defend oneself****

do you know this for sure or are you guessing now? Reasonable is a very subjective word. As for this instance reasonable force would be self defence and that involved a gun. too bad

****and reversing over the body would certainly be excess force ****

That's been discussed and wasn't an intentional act. You weren't there and don't know what options they had. I find your attitude of "the cops should just take it" very imature and without much thought.

****I agree, attempting to injure the police is wrong and should warrant arrest****

is this before or after one of the police get there heads bashed in with a weapon?

****but what is this 'guilty by association'. ****

For example if 10% of the crowd is throwing things the police have now choice but to tear gas the whole crowd...hence guilty by association.

****This does not exists in the law on this side of the atlantic****

This isn't a literal "GUILTY" conviction. It's a phrase that means that if you hang out with murderers you will be thought of as the same...guilty by association..whether it's true or not.

****The vast majority of the poeple there commited no offences****

I think i said that a 100 times now

****yet were attacked by the police. 'But they should have tried to stop the violent minority' may be justification for the violent beatings and gassing in your eyes, but it is not in the eyes of the law****

Guilty by association..sad but true

****Berlusconi's deputy, Fini, is a member of the fascist party founded by Mussolini's daughter, and there has been a history of far-right elements pervading the Italian Police so it doesnt makke these actions too surprising.****

i don't want to discuss italian politics because i can sum up that in one word: CORUPTION



Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleCLuB99
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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #365116 - 08/01/01 11:05 PM (22 years, 7 months ago)

invertigo ...you should read more before sentencing facts that obvioulsy you don't know....
if you sum with corruption the actual politic situation you're not understanding at all...read more...
the problem now is completely different, italy is back to fascist dictature, and the facts of genoa are the finest expression of this situation...
there are proofs of the intentions of the govern to create all what happened at genoa.
first, the black bloc, known by the europol, who comunicated the names of these idiots the the italian govenment. why the cops let them in, when a lot of pacifist people was not allowed to enter italy (breaking an european parliament law)??
and why the night before the g8 the police and carabinieri attacked the gsf organization in a school, destroyng everything, arresting the gsf lawyers (and a lot of people more)and destroying their pc, and why in the school are found liters of blood splattered all around?
and why the lawyers weren't allowed to see their customers, negating them the most civil, democratic and costitutional rights???

to finish, germany, great britain, spain, portugal and others countries, amnesty international, reporters sans frontieres, l'osservatore romano (the vatican newspaper), and a lot of others istitutions, governments, assosiations for civil right etc...
have all pronunced against the illegality and the suspension of the fundamental civil rights happened in genoa....need more???



IL_FUNGO_SACRO la coltivazione, gli enteogeni, in italiano
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InvisibleCLuB99
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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #365118 - 08/01/01 11:09 PM (22 years, 7 months ago)

...95 of the 96 people arrested at the Diaz school, headquarter of the gsf were released without charges...

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GENOA [Re: CLuB99]
    #365366 - 08/02/01 06:12 AM (22 years, 7 months ago)

****invertigo ...you should read more before sentencing facts that obvioulsy you don't know****

Am i right or wrong? I mentioned i don't know anything about the Italian System...the only thing i know about it is that it is corrupt....and i'm not saying ours isn't.

****italy is back to fascist dictature****

I rest my case..

****all pronunced against the illegality and the suspension of the fundamental civil rights happened in genoa....need more??? ***

so!? i don't live in them countries

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinemm.
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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #368762 - 08/08/01 01:05 PM (22 years, 7 months ago)

The head of the Italian police has admitted that officers used excessive force in dealing with demonstrators at last month's G8 summit in Genoa. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1480000/1480596.stm



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InvisibleBeery
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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #368935 - 08/08/01 06:06 PM (22 years, 7 months ago)

Excessive force? Now that's an understatement if ever there was one.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #369209 - 08/09/01 06:38 AM (22 years, 7 months ago)

I like it that they are reporting this to be a Riot now instead of a demonstration....did that article also state that the loser's in the crowd used excessive force bu throwing things at the police....probably not.

As far as that article i say the police did just what they should of......next time they might want to use rubber bullets and more non-lethal weapons....the only thing excessive was the kid killed (which he deserved) and the police could of used more nonlethal weapons that hurt like fuck.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleBeery
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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369213 - 08/09/01 06:54 AM (22 years, 7 months ago)

No-one 'deserves' to be shot dead.

Have you no compassion?

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