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GENOA
    #357846 -

A protester has been murdered by Italian police, who then drove over his body. Another female protester has also been run over and is seriously injured. Our world is controlled by fascist cunts. We must over throw their system by peacfull means if possible


http://www.indymedia.org

Edited by mm. on 07/20/01 04:01 AM.



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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #357854 -

I could be mistaken but from what i heard is that that person threw a fire extinquisher at a para-military truck and was shot then run over by a different car/truck.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #357895 -

regardless, throwing a fire extinguisher does not warrant being shot. Fire extinguisher hitting a heavily armored riot cop= no harm. Bullet from a semi-automatic weapon hitting the body of an unarmored protestor= death. The two don't equate.

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Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun

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Re: GENOA [Re: ]
    #357901 -

Italian military forces are being used to bash protesters protesting the g8 summit. They have shot a protester in the head twice, then backed a large van over his corpse repeatedly to make sure he was dead. They shot him in the head twice and ran over his dead body repeatedly in 'self defence'.
Did anyone else notice that the Italian military forces that are putting down protests are wearing powder blue helmets the same exact style and color as the UN soldiers? Is this a coincidence or is there a UN military presence in Italy?





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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: GENOA [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #357913 -

Yeah, I saw the uniforms... but they've always been called 'italian peace keeping forces' or whatever... I dunno, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was UN soldiers.

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Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun

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Re: GENOA [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #357936 -

They are the Carabinieri - the Italian right-wing paramilitary riot police. nothing to do with UN troops



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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #358085 -

more information: Genoa News Kiosk




http://www.abolishthebank.org

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Re: GENOA [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #358088 -

"The Italian-language Reuters news service
identifies the young man who was murdered
in Genoa today as 23-year-old Carlo
Giuliani, who is from Rome but had been
living in Genoa. (Earlier rumors had
identified him, wrongly, as Spanish.)

Many photos have now been posted from
before, during, and after the killing. They
show clearly that he was shot in the head
with a pistol from point-blank range while
attempting to hurl a fire extinguisher into a
police jeep -- hardly an act that threatened
the life of the police, despite the officer's
claim that he shot the young man in
self-defense.

After Carlo Giuliani fell to the ground from
two gunshots to the head, the jeep backed up
and ran over him."


http://www.abolishthebank.org

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Re: GENOA [Re: ]
    #359277 -

I have noticed things i believe many purposly overlook. In all (or a majority) the cases where a protester gets shot, arrested or handcuffed it turns out that the protesters started it. Since it's Itally the really don't have the same rights as we do so who knows what their laws are on assemby.

I can kill a man with a fire extinquisher as well as with a big stick. What would you be saying it the guy got mortally wounded or lost an eye or something? Probably most on here would say that he deserved it.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #359279 -

you aren't a very bright person are you?.....i'm surprised that i'm the only one who knows your full of it..

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #359280 -

Come on now Invertigo, is having a fire extinguisher chucked at you really a life threatening situation? It would be a million to one odds to kill the Itailian cop. About the same odds as a hit pitch hitting the pitcher in the heart or nose and killing them, million to one chance, at best! There was no life threatening situation. Now I suppose it would be possible for it to have been a bomb. But come on, a bomb that looks like and it the same color as a fire extinguisher! I've never heard of anything like that (But then never having being on a bomb squad I could very easily be dead wrong on that, maybe.).
I suppose after all the successes of globalism, such as NAFTA and GAT, and all the millions of high paying jobs they have created, and all the other wonderful benefits such globalist efforts have brought the common working people, that such protests by unions and industrial workers must seem extremely uncalled for. And George Dubya Bush is absolutely right when he says these protestors don't represent the common working people. After all, it is only George Dubya Bush that actually represents the views and beliefs of common working people, and such a strong man of convictions such as him knows what is best for us all, right? Give me a break!

Now for a moment suspend your opinions that the protests were unnecessary. And think about it from an anarchosyndicalistic point of view. These people are fighting to protect their way of life and to protect their chirldens birthright (good high paying jobs). The international trade that these G8 leaders want to expand is destroying their way of life and stealing their childrens birthright. Everything they do is 100% justified.

Now I don't personaly hold the principles of anarchosyndicalism but my own priciples being syndicalism/libertarian liberalism are similar enough that I sympathize with these good hard working people.

Just look at what happened and the available pictures on your own and analyze it for yourself instead of regurgitating the exact same opinions that have been spoon fed to you by the mass media. That's all I ask.






--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #359435 -

In reply to:

I have noticed things i believe many purposly overlook. In all (or a majority) the cases where a protester gets shot, arrested or handcuffed it turns out that the protesters started it.



You havent got a clue have you? How about the storming of the Genoa Social Forum by the Italian Police. It was full of sleeping non-violent protesters. The riot police stromed in, lining up everyone against the wall and beating them to within an inch of their life. They also raided the Indymedia centre in order to destroy evidence that police provocateurs had instigated most of the violent protests. I have numerous pics and videos of excessive police brutality at Genoa if your intersted. Also check out Indymedia Global and Indymedia Italy both have loads of the same.

Rail_GUn -
In reply to:

These people are fighting to protect their way of life and to protect their chirldens birthright (good high paying jobs).



These people are not 'anarcho-syndicalsits' but a broad range of groups from environmentalists, anarchists, hard left communists, debt-relief campaigners and church groups and charities
Most people were not there to protect not only their rights but the rights of the millions in the third world who are living in hell as the capitalist system is set up to rape them and their countries. It is also destoying the world Any fool can see that the current situation is unsustainable in the long term - and time is running out.

"Fascism should more appropriately be called CORPORATISM because it is a merger of state and corporate power." -Mussolini

Edited by mm. on 07/23/01 02:29 PM.



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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #359564 -

http://www.dyne.org/antig8/text/brutality-report.html



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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #359612 -

I'm italian, so i'm personally involved about the whole story.
Really i was expecting something like genoa facts.
The dead of that guy will be the first of a long story to be writed.
Silvio berlusconi, and his cocksucker Gianfranco fini(remember those names, you'll hear again) are acting exactly as i though....like fascist as they are....
I have no words....
Is this democracy when who dissent are brutally attacked by the police??? NO!
And the same is everywhere.
If at the next G8 someone goes with a gun i'll be not surprised. And i hope it too!:mad:
I'm tired of all that lies that the western governments (USA for first) tell us.
And berlusconi told that italy will be the "dock" for the usa way of life and freedom!! that's really scares me:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
sorry guys but somewhere i had to talk....


IL_FUNGO_SACRO la coltivazione, gli enteogeni, in italiano
Support the FSR

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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #359906 -

****You havent got a clue have you? How about the storming of the Genoa Social Forum by the Italian Police****

What about it?..

This is what your article said:

****Demonstrations, attended by members of literally thousands of diverse European and international social justice organizations, featured a mass action of organized civil disobedience headed by the Italian Ya Basta! movement, ****

So tell me knowledged one...what kind of civil disobediance was used?..wouldn't happen to be throwing objects at the "peace-keepers"?
Before you get your panties in a bundle i don't always support the police. Hence a majority of protrsters. actually i'm happy that people have the ability to assemble. But i severly doubt that these protesters were sleeping peaceful and did nothing wrong. Then again these protesters are in Italy not the US and if there's anyone to blame for the violence it'd the italian people not us.

****attempting to break through the sealed off 'Red Zone' security barriers dividing the militarized town of Genoa. Italian police met the demonstrations with violence, resulting in serious injuries from both street clashes and raids on sleeping protesters****

What happened to the peaceful demonstrations that the Genoa Social Forum claims to profess? i believe that any group has the ability to gather but when you start throwing things and beaking laws you give up that right (at least in the US). Sounds to me these protesters involved in the breaking of laws deserved it.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #360094 -

If you were standing in a peacful demonstration with thousands of people, and one of them throws a rock at the police, does that give them the right to gas and beat you round the head, then arrest you for 'violently resisiting arrest' although you offered no resistance, take you to jail, deny yuou access to a lawyer or anyone else for 48 hours, while they torture you and beat you some more, then charge you with 'incitement to riot', 'assualting a police officer' etc.. for which you face 5 years in jail? That is what happened to hundreds of people in Genoa last weekend.

If your only crime was to stand in a demo to because you think the current political system is bad for the world as a whole, and you were condemend by current political leaders as 'mindless thugs' 'rabble' and 'only there for a fight', whilst facing an orchestrated campaign of unjustifiable police violence and repression. How would you feel then Invertigo, or would you not see yourself in such a situaton as long as you have the freedom to get cheap burgers from McDonalds

I am sure that if not a single protester had performed a violent act, the police would have acted in the same manner.





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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #360569 -

Hi, i'm Italian and I'was in Genoa on Saturday 21. I can affirm that the 300000 people that i saw was absolutly pacific(no one have throwing anything against anyone, the only civil disobedience that we do was shout "assassini" and show our middle finger at police and other order forces, that i consider a legittim act the day after the death of a guy) but no one show even only one picture of this coloured procession (in a political sense); media have do a good job for show what they want show, or maybe what someone (governement?) want show.
I want tell only what i've experienced: i.e. that police have charged thousand pacific people (old and young, reds and catholics...) exploiting the excuse of provocation from "black bloc", about 1000 nazistoid idiot, probably in collusion with order forces (there are many picture and many evidence of this...).
The only things that was break in Genoa were head of hundred people, and the freedom of protest...
it seems that here fascism is came back!


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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #360580 -

****If you were standing in a peacful demonstration with thousands of people, and one of them throws a rock at the police****

ha...it wasn't just one person throwing rocks..get real. That demonstration was anything but peaceful....unless breaking into restricted areas and throwing things at police is peaceful. The "good" protesters should have beaten the shit out of the loser ones.

****does that give them the right to gas and beat you round the head, then arrest you for 'violently resisiting arrest' although you offered no resistance, take you to jail, deny yuou access to a lawyer........****

If they were in the US then i would have to say no. But as i said earlier i don't know the rights that the people have in Italy.

****If your only crime was to stand in a demo to because you think the current political system is bad ****

man are you blind....or choose to be.....i'm sure the protesters wern't singing "kumbia" and "give peace a chance". maybe next time the "good" protesters will stop the assholes from throwing shit at the "peacekeepers"

****and you were condemend by current political leaders as 'mindless thugs' 'rabble' and 'only there for a fight', whilst facing an orchestrated campaign of unjustifiable police violence and repression****

Sticks and stones..............get over it, don't they have a right to express their opinions..i personally think a lot of them people need to get a job.

****How would you feel then Invertigo, or would you not see yourself in such a situaton as long as you have the freedom to get cheap burgers from McDonalds****

i'm not sure exactly what this has to do with me but i prefer KFC....

****I am sure that if not a single protester had performed a violent act, the police would have acted in the same manner.****

you know what they say when you assume.........



Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: 7th]
    #360581 -

****Hi, i'm Italian and I'was in Genoa on Saturday 21. I can affirm that the 300000 people that i saw was absolutly pacific(no one have throwing anything against anyone****

So you're telling me that you saw every single one of the 30,000 protesters and they were totally peaceful? That has got to be the biggest bunch of bullshit i've heard all day

****media have do a good job for show what they want show, or maybe what someone (governement?) want show.****

and you're attempting to do the same...but it wasn't too good

i read the rest of your post but it didn't make sense...sorry

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #360809 -

Latest from Indymedia
(translated from Italian)
The Government supports the actions of the Police and retreats in his fortress of absolute majority. 18 more German people have been arrested with the accuse, good for anything now, to be part of the black block: "... and the always present black shirts...". The media puppet, the monster, the emergency walks on without any hindrance.
Demos in all of Italy sympathetic with the arrested ones and the wounded ones, against repression and state and Police violence: more than 200000 people in several cities. The most populated demos in Milan (50000 ppl) and Rome (50000 ppl).


Today about 64 people should be released. Maybe more will be, following the news that GIP (a judge) has not validated saturday night arrests. While news about enquiries begin to flow and arrests (9 only this night in Genoa) and searches (in many arrested people's houses) go on without rest, the Regime spreads: on one side people after being released from jail or jail hospitals is moved to the Police Headquarters without having the possibility to talk to anyone (we don't understand following which law), and after that taken to the airport to be sent in their home country; even a Consul has not managed to convince the Police of the need of the people to mediacl treatment and to the respect of the most basic civil rights. The situation is the same in Pavia, Voghera, Genova. On the other side Vittorio Agnoletto, spokeperson for the GSF, has been fired from his role in the Drug Commision, since "he has expressed dissent regarding the Government actions": a true act of revenge.




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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #361374 -

It's clear that you don't understand nothing of what i have said (maybe it's for my bad english, sorry...), so i will try to explain better:
I saw a see of people (i wish i can show some picture in a near future) that are TOTALY PACIFIC, i saw SOME guy throwing rock against police, and i SAW police throw tear -gas against us, i SAW police beat us, i SAW police arrest us (that was there only with pacific intention)
And when i say SOME guys, it means that at least 3000 (this is the number of provoker estimeted from police agency) people was in Genova with unpacific intentions (i.e Black bloc), it means (if you do some computation) that provocker are only 1% of 300000 ; this incline me to affirm that the movement anti g8 was (excuse me, is) pacific...
I don't pretend to show anything! as i've said i tell only what i have experienced, it's obvious that is my personal interpretation of events.
...in Italy rights are the same of these of any other CIVIL country, but what is happen in genoa the 20-21is not civil.
laters



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Re: GENOA [Re: 7th]
    #361418 -

****that provocker are only 1% of 300000 ****

There were not 300,000 people at the demonstration so your figures are wrong...i'm betting that it's more like 10% of the people are causing trouble..it all comes down to guilty by association.

Lets get something strait, i support people's right to demonstrate. The problem is that the 10% or more of the people want to become violent and the mob mentality erupts. Even though 90% or less people are "passive" (non violent) it is their responsibility to calm the violent protesters. Either that or the police will do it.

****but what is happen in genoa the 20-21is not civil****

Your right.....and the 10% or so should be ashamed of themselves...as should the 90%

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #361444 -

There is no responsablitiy in law for a peacfull demonstrator to prevent a violent demonstrator from commiting their actions. It is not an offence to 'fail to prevent a riot' - most of those arrested have been deported without charge. Do you really think the police should beat and torture people who have not broken the law? If it were illegal to congregate in a place frequented by violent people, then i could see your point of view - the police would be 'doing their job'. The demonstrations were not unlawfull assemblies so i dont see how you can justify such violent and indiscriminate police action.

Now the
mainstream media are reporting the brutality.

Edited by mm. on 07/26/01 03:50 PM.



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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #361450 -

****There is no responsablitiy in law for a peacfull demonstrator to prevent a violent demonstrator from commiting their actions. ****

Exactly!!! not in the law...Therefor it's up to the police or "peacekeepers" to stop the violence then they accept the guilty by association situation.. With this said the 90% of the people would get their message across a lot better if they could talk some sense into those wackjobs.

****most of those arrested have been deported without charge****

that's just too bad...it's not their country and must respect the country's laws. Is that hard to understand?..it's called being responsible.

****Do you really think the police should beat and torture people who have not broken the law? ****

No i do not think they have the right to do that, however you seem to think that throwing rocks and conspiring to break the law is not breaking the law.

****If it were illegal to congregate in a place frequented by violent people, then i could see your point of view ****

every demonstration has been violent

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #361861 -

I don't understand on what statistic you say that there weren't ~300000 people...If you have read (but i don't pretend that you learn italian) even only one Italian journal monday 23 you could see that this number is not my invention. Anyway we could stay here and discuss about numbers at infinite, but this is not my intention (and i wish neither your).

Even if is not a responsability (for the law) of demostrators to calm the violent, i can affirme that this has happened.

7th



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Re: GENOA [Re: 7th]
    #361925 -

I have changed my opinion on the incident in which the protestor was killed. I have learned a couple new things about fire extinguishers being used as weapons.

A fire extinguisher IS a deadly weapon. In the LA riots a fire extinguisher was one of the weapons used to assult the truckdriver Reginold Denny.

Second, during the the 1970's/80's the humble fire extinguisher was one of the more popular containments for various explosives/incendiaries used against the U.S military in Europe by the "Red Army Faction"/Meinhoff groups. Usually under the driver's seat with a pressure fuse. But such a device - delivered by hand with a timer would accomplish the same thing of course.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: GENOA [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #361967 -

Shit..yer.. hands are a deadly weapon. Someone in my home town was strangled by someones hands in 1975, if you see someone moving their hands in your direction, better shoot them between the eyes pronto.



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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #361997 -

it looks as though your argument is crumbling.....boy i'm beginning to feel sorry for you. :(

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #362030 -

The opposite in fact. I was just amazed at how someone could change their whole view on the protest, after finding out that a fire extinguisher is officaly a 'deadly weapon' in some country 1000's of miles away. You are basing your justification for the illegal, indiscriminate, beatings and torture of inocent people, on the fact that they failed (not nesscesarily without trying) to stop the violent actions of others.



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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #362066 -

In reply to:

I was just amazed at how someone could change their whole view on the protest, after finding out that a fire extinguisher is officaly a 'deadly weapon' in some country 1000's of miles away.



Reginold Denny was in LA county CA, not some country thousands of miles away. And for all those pigs knew it could've been a bomb too. That country thousands of miles away you mentioned was a lot closer to Italy.

BTW, it really seems you are grasping at straws comparing a bludgoning tool/potential explosive device to human hands.

If I was a LEO and some dude in a ski mask was attacking me or my partner in my vehicle with what I believed to be a potentialy deadly weapon I would neutralize the threat. That's all I can do is go on what I believe is right under circumstances.

If the guy in the ski mask was not wearing a ski mask and violently assaulting LEO's with potentialy deadly weapons he would still be alive and his mother wouldn't have lost her son.

But I guess the mentality here is more like kill the fuckin' pigs because they are worthless scum that doesn't have a family and if they die than good and their family won't miss them. More than a litle insensitive in my humble opinion.

Bottom line is if there wasen't rioters in masks attacking LEO's with bludgoning tools that have the same appearance as bombs somtimes used by terrorists then it wouldn't have occoured.

And my initial opinion was from what I saw on MSNBC from the initial reports before they even had the full story and I bought the propaganda. But only briefly. It looks like the misleading first impression has set in stone the opinions of some on the subject.

Well, that's my .02 cents.

Edited by Rail_Gun on 07/27/01 04:25 PM.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #363535 -

****I was just amazed at how someone could change their whole view on the protest, after finding out that a fire extinguisher is officaly a 'deadly weapon' in some country 1000's of miles away****

That shows that you are indeed close-minded...either that or you choose to be....for the record i haven't wavered one bit as to my position and in the future respond to those you want to debate.

****You are basing your justification for the illegal, indiscriminate, beatings and torture of inocent people, on the fact that they failed (not nesscesarily without trying) to stop the violent actions of others.****

Sorry your wrong and becomming desperate...but i don't blame you. I've been saying that any protester that hurls anything at the police that can seriously hurt someone needs to be arrested. In this instance it was a split minute decision that the cop had to make and unfortunatly the loser protester lost. As for the passive protesters, they are guilty by association. It's sad but true. They should of made an attempt to calm their own people...i am betting that no attempt was made.



Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #363576 -

The law alows the use of 'reasonable force' to defend oneself, and no more. Reasonable force in the circumstances might involve the use of CS gas, warning shots etc.. A lethal shot would not be reasonable force in the circumstances, and reversing over the body would certainly be excess force - there was a clear escape route for the vehicle. I agree, attempting to injure the police is wrong and should warrant arrest, but what is this 'guilty by association'. This does not exists in the law on this side of the atlantic. Unless someone actually commits an offence, such as 'conspiracy to riot, or 'incitement to riot' they are innocent. The vast majority of the poeple there commited no offences, yet were attacked by the police. 'But they should have tried to stop the violent minority' may be justification for the violent beatings and gassing in your eyes, but it is not in the eyes of the law. They were participating in a legal assembly under the "Freedom of Expression" granted to them under the European Human Rights Act. Berlusconi's deputy, Fini, is a member of the fascist party founded by Mussolini's daughter, and there has been a history of far-right elements pervading the Italian Police so it doesnt makke these actions too surprising.



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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #363585 -

****The law alows the use of 'reasonable force' to defend oneself****

do you know this for sure or are you guessing now? Reasonable is a very subjective word. As for this instance reasonable force would be self defence and that involved a gun. too bad

****and reversing over the body would certainly be excess force ****

That's been discussed and wasn't an intentional act. You weren't there and don't know what options they had. I find your attitude of "the cops should just take it" very imature and without much thought.

****I agree, attempting to injure the police is wrong and should warrant arrest****

is this before or after one of the police get there heads bashed in with a weapon?

****but what is this 'guilty by association'. ****

For example if 10% of the crowd is throwing things the police have now choice but to tear gas the whole crowd...hence guilty by association.

****This does not exists in the law on this side of the atlantic****

This isn't a literal "GUILTY" conviction. It's a phrase that means that if you hang out with murderers you will be thought of as the same...guilty by association..whether it's true or not.

****The vast majority of the poeple there commited no offences****

I think i said that a 100 times now

****yet were attacked by the police. 'But they should have tried to stop the violent minority' may be justification for the violent beatings and gassing in your eyes, but it is not in the eyes of the law****

Guilty by association..sad but true

****Berlusconi's deputy, Fini, is a member of the fascist party founded by Mussolini's daughter, and there has been a history of far-right elements pervading the Italian Police so it doesnt makke these actions too surprising.****

i don't want to discuss italian politics because i can sum up that in one word: CORUPTION



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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #365116 -

invertigo ...you should read more before sentencing facts that obvioulsy you don't know....
if you sum with corruption the actual politic situation you're not understanding at all...read more...
the problem now is completely different, italy is back to fascist dictature, and the facts of genoa are the finest expression of this situation...
there are proofs of the intentions of the govern to create all what happened at genoa.
first, the black bloc, known by the europol, who comunicated the names of these idiots the the italian govenment. why the cops let them in, when a lot of pacifist people was not allowed to enter italy (breaking an european parliament law)??
and why the night before the g8 the police and carabinieri attacked the gsf organization in a school, destroyng everything, arresting the gsf lawyers (and a lot of people more)and destroying their pc, and why in the school are found liters of blood splattered all around?
and why the lawyers weren't allowed to see their customers, negating them the most civil, democratic and costitutional rights???

to finish, germany, great britain, spain, portugal and others countries, amnesty international, reporters sans frontieres, l'osservatore romano (the vatican newspaper), and a lot of others istitutions, governments, assosiations for civil right etc...
have all pronunced against the illegality and the suspension of the fundamental civil rights happened in genoa....need more???



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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #365118 -

...95 of the 96 people arrested at the Diaz school, headquarter of the gsf were released without charges...

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Re: GENOA [Re: CLuB99]
    #365366 -

****invertigo ...you should read more before sentencing facts that obvioulsy you don't know****

Am i right or wrong? I mentioned i don't know anything about the Italian System...the only thing i know about it is that it is corrupt....and i'm not saying ours isn't.

****italy is back to fascist dictature****

I rest my case..

****all pronunced against the illegality and the suspension of the fundamental civil rights happened in genoa....need more??? ***

so!? i don't live in them countries

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #368762 -

The head of the Italian police has admitted that officers used excessive force in dealing with demonstrators at last month's G8 summit in Genoa. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1480000/1480596.stm



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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #368935 -

Excessive force? Now that's an understatement if ever there was one.

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Re: GENOA [Re: mm.]
    #369209 -

I like it that they are reporting this to be a Riot now instead of a demonstration....did that article also state that the loser's in the crowd used excessive force bu throwing things at the police....probably not.

As far as that article i say the police did just what they should of......next time they might want to use rubber bullets and more non-lethal weapons....the only thing excessive was the kid killed (which he deserved) and the police could of used more nonlethal weapons that hurt like fuck.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369213 -

No-one 'deserves' to be shot dead.

Have you no compassion?

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Re: GENOA [Re: Beery]
    #369242 -

compassion for rioter's?....absolutly not

for demonstrator's?..sure

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369251 -

Referring to this man as 'a rioter' is a way to dehumanize him. That you are so willing to do this says a lot about you. None of it good.

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Edited by Beery on 08/09/01 10:12 AM.



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Re: GENOA [Re: Beery]
    #369273 -

****Referring to this man as 'a rioter' is a way to dehumanize him. ****

wow...you're getting better

****That you are so willing to do this says a lot about you. None of it good. ****

oh darn my attempts to impress you have failed....whatever will i do?

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369280 -

"oh darn my attempts to impress you have failed....whatever will i do?"

I don't know, but being able to think of protesters as human beings might help allay fears of psychosis.

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Re: GENOA [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369287 -

"i come in 3-4 hours early and work one hour later and spend about an hour posting messages"

Really? One hour?

A quick search tells me that today on this forum today alone you have posted 9 posts in a 4 hour period. Yesterday you must have been busy doing actual work for your employer, 'cos you only posted 3 times in a one-hour period. Same the day before that. On August 3rd you seem to have been particularly lazy, posting 6 times between 8:24am and 2:37pm.

That's just this one forum. Goodness knows whether or not this is your only outlet for your political propaganda. Either way, you spend an awful lot of time not working for someone who 'works his ass off'. Some folks (like my wife) aren't allowed to just surf the net during working hours - not for a second, let alone an hour (or in your case sometimes 4 hours). She could be fired if her employers found any evidence of non-work-related internet surfing (and they do monitor these things).

Some employers obviously have different ideas about what constitutes work. Some employees obviously have very different ideas about what constitutes 'working one's ass off'.

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Re: GENOA [Re: Beery]
    #370829 -

i find it of little importance whether or not the police acted justfully in killing this protester, or if he had acted violently and dangerously. The fact of the matter is that various heads of state are congregating on an ever more common scale at WTO, G8, World Bank, IMF, ect. summits to discuss "globalization" (whatever it may become). The people of the world have shown thier adament opposition to the forums in every aspect from their organization to ideological content. That people would die in the process shows the power and importance of the underlying issue. Several have died, the Governments of the world have made it clear what they think of the people, thus far the only responce has been violent coercion by police to shut out the voice of those protesting CAPITALISM and its derivatives.


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