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Offlinegray1
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in support of missile defense
    #357686 - 07/19/01 11:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

althought i haven't analyzed it much yet, i actually like the idea of a missile defense system (though at the present, it really doesn't seem like its even feasible, accurate, and dependable). i would like to see the US build a strong defense against potential attack from abroad which would allow us to focus on our internal issues and take a step back from foreign affairs (afterall, most of the time when the US is involved in foreign affairs it is due to our own personal interest, not the good of humanity)
don't we have enough problems internally to work out?
shouldn't we be making efforts to make the everyday quality of life better for our citizens instead of exploring the moons of venus? what good does that do to the everyday citizen at the present?



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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: gray1]
    #358009 - 07/20/01 10:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Venus has no moons....

...and Missle Defense doesn't stop "suitcase bombs" (the real terrorist threat in the future). However, if we could stop ICBMs from hitting US cities I would not be opposed. I'm just not sure the threat warrants the expenditure of studying a system that may never be feasible. Of course, the cost of it is never a big deal to politicians in Washington. Those bastards will happily keep spending our money on whatever they want.....fuckers!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do!


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #358061 - 07/21/01 12:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

With the deterance of mutual assured destruction there is no need for missle defence. Bush wants to reduce our nuclear arsenol to the point that we will not be able to defend ourselves. He is doing all this to give corporate welfare to the domestic technological arms developers.

And I thought Ronnie Ray Gun was bad... George W. Bush is working for Satan himself!



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Registered: 08/04/00
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #358096 - 07/21/01 01:18 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Of course, the cost of it is never a big deal to politicians in Washington. Those bastards will happily keep spending our money on whatever they want.....fuckers!!




Exactly.

And whose pockets will the billions & billions & billions of tax payer's money end up? Northrupp Grumman, General Dynamics, Boeing, Lockhead-Martin, etc etc. Guess it pays to have friends in high places. word up.


http://www.abolishthebank.org


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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #358248 - 07/21/01 12:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Bush and the Republicans are often accused by liberals of not caring about people and just doing all they can to benefit thier friends in "big bussiness" (i.e.- Northrup Grumman, General Dynamics, Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, and lets not forget the large energy producing corporations in there). And to some extent these arguments are legitimate and I see cause for concern. But lets not be partisan and pretend that the Liberals care any more about us than the Conservatives in this country. While the Democrats have somewhat succeeded in shaping public opinion and making people believe they are the party that cares about "the common people" lets not forget that they are just whores to special interests, same as the Republicans. If the Democrats had your money it might not be going to the same big bussinesses but it surely wouldn't be coming back to you either! It would mostly be funneled into places like the NEA, failing social programs, and ridiculous "human-interest" concerns both locally and abroad. Government is the only place where they reward failure! I don't care if it is an impracticle missle defense program or the proven failure of a governmnet controlled retirement program, the politicians think they can just make it better by throwing more of your money at it. If any bussiness were run the same way they run the government it would go under so fast your head would spin!

Look, I am tired of those assholes thinking they know best how to spend my money! I think missle defense is another waste of my tax dollar. But until we as the citizens of this country start to show our outrage nothing will change. The government takes well over HALF of everything you struggle to earn! Federal, state, local, and sales taxes. Add it up! Does that seem right to you? If you think that is fair then you are more of a socialist than a true patriotic American citizen. Tax money is not the governmnets money, it is YOUR money! So you'd better demand they spend it wisely. And I can gaurantee that I could do a lot more good with my own money than the government can! Federal spending is out of control and the taxation of the citizens has become ludicrous. And until we put a stop to it they will continue to waste your dollars on programs you do not support, missle defense being just one of them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do!


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!


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Offlinegray1
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #359981 - 07/24/01 01:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

"venus has no moons...."

exactly my point.

"i am a citizen of the world" diogenes


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OfflineAnother Failure
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: gray1]
    #360844 - 07/25/01 07:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Read your history books. Peace does not arise when one nation has a compelling superiority to its foes. Notice that one of the longest periods of peace in recent history was when the USA and the USSR were so scared pissless of each other that they didn't dare start anything.

The other big danger is the "last chance" fear. You don't want the bigwigs in China getting together one night and saying, "Well guys, we either press the button right now or we don't press it ever. Who wants to trust the capitalists not to mess with us until we get our own system online?"

When it comes to foreign policy, W.'s head is stuck so far up his ass that his eyes are burning from stomach acid. Whatever he thinks he knows about that system and its diplomatic ramifications, I assure you he doesn't.

I don't want to go to fucking war.



--------------------
"What good's the free market done you lately?"
--Evan E.


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Invisibledjfrog
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: gray1]
    #361097 - 07/26/01 02:52 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Just wait until you guy's hear about Washington state's missile defense and nuclear program. I don't think anyone will miss Vermont, they're slated to be nuked in 2003. No hard feelings, right guys?

---
djfrog's bubble tek:

1 cup warm water
1/2 cup liquid soap (i like to use tear free shampoo for little ones)
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OfflineMOoKie
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: Another Failure]
    #361110 - 07/26/01 03:24 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Read your history books. Peace does not arise when one nation has a compelling superiority to its foes. Notice that one of the longest periods of peace in recent history was when the USA and the USSR were so scared pissless of each other that they didn't dare start anything.




On a couple different occasions the US went to DEFCON two; that's only one defense level away from all out Nuclear war. The history books don't speak of things of this nature. We definitely were not scared pissless of each other. We didn't want to destroy the world perhaps, but not scared. The Cold War was secretive, but not necessarily peaceful.

In reply to:

When it comes to foreign policy, W.'s head is stuck so far up his ass that his eyes are burning from stomach acid.




I actually don't think he has much to do at all with the foreign policy.





--------------------
"If it ain't one thing, then it's the other. Any cause that crosses your path; your heart bleeds for anyone's brother. I've got to tell you you're a pain in the ass."      Oingo Boingo!


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OfflineMOoKie
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #361113 - 07/26/01 03:36 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Missle Defense doesn't stop "suitcase bombs" (the real terrorist threat in the future).




Would you be in favor of spending money on high tech sensors that could detect radiation? Kind of like the radar system we have for weather, covering the surface area of the country and several miles out to sea.

I think sensors like this exist, although I don't know how powerful or expensive they may be. Technology only advances....



--------------------
"If it ain't one thing, then it's the other. Any cause that crosses your path; your heart bleeds for anyone's brother. I've got to tell you you're a pain in the ass."      Oingo Boingo!


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Offlinegray1
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: MOoKie]
    #364103 - 07/31/01 12:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

"On a couple different occasions the US went to DEFCON two;On a couple different occasions the US went to DEFCON two;"

additionally, in details magazine this month ( i believe, i'll check when i get home) it says that there were 3 times during the cold war period that the US now knows that russia was moments away from launching a nuclear attack, once based on misinterpretation of a weather satelite that was launched by a neutral country as a nuclear weapon form the us.

basically, i would like for the us to back away from foreign policy and foreign involvement and deal with some of the internal issues that affect daily quality of life for its citizens, but do so without jepordizing our safety from potential attacking nations. if a missile defense system could offer such, i would be 100% in favor of it. in terms of missile defense not stopping terrorism, much of what causes terrorism is hatred of us interaction in various foreign affairs. if we were more independant and less involved, the source of the anger that results in terrorist attacks would be greatly diminished.

gray1


"i am a citizen of the world" diogenes


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Offlineheadphone
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Re: in support of missile defense [Re: gray1]
    #364179 - 07/31/01 04:00 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The target destroyed in the "successful" defense shield test
contained a global positioning satellite that made it easier to
detect. Why has the media mostly ignored the story?

The Pentagon and the Bush administration are determined to sell the American people
a national missile defense system that will probably increase tensions with allies and
adversaries and will surely cost more than $100 billion. Their latest marketing exercise
took place on the evening of July 14, when a "kill vehicle" launched from the Kwajalein
Atoll in the Pacific smashed into a rocket sent up from Vandenberg Air Force Base in
California.

Precisely according to plan, the target was instantly vaporized on impact -- and along
with it, or so the Pentagon's uniformed salesmen hoped, the perennial concern that
missile defense won't work. With the cooperation of major news organizations and
conservative pundits, that test provided an enormous propaganda boost to the Bush
proposal, which conveniently enough had been brought up to Capitol Hill by Defense
Department officials just two days earlier.

There was only one thing that all the happy salesmen forgot to mention about their
latest test drive. The rocket fired from Vandenberg was carrying a global positioning
satellite beacon that guided the kill vehicle toward it. In other words, it would be fair to
say that the $100 million test was rigged.

No wonder, then, that Lt. Gen. Ronald Kadish, the Air Force officer who oversees the
NMD program, told the Washington Post on the eve of the test that he was "quietly
confident" about the outcome. The general knew about the GPS beacon, while the
reporters didn't.

This rather significant aspect of the July 14 mission remained hidden in the fine print
until a few days ago, when the Pentagon confirmed the role of the GPS device to a
reporter for Defense Week magazine. But of course most Americans still don't know
why the test functioned so smoothly, because the Defense Week scoop was either
buried or ignored by the mainstream media, which had so obediently celebrated the
technological breakthrough two weeks earlier.

And as Kadish later acknowledged, each of the previous three tests -- two of which
failed anyway -- had also involved the use of a guidance beacon. (To longtime
observers of the missile-defense effort, this latest news recalled the notorious "Star
Wars" scandal, when investigators discovered that a target had been secretly heated
to ensure that it would be picked up by the interceptor's infrared sensor.)

Reuters was among the few news organizations that bothered to cover the Defense
Week story. The wire service quoted a Pentagon official who "conceded that real
warheads in an attack would not carry such helpful beacons." Probably not, although
we can always hope that the Iranians or the North Koreans or the Chinese will attach to
each incoming nuke a loudspeaker that screams "come and get me!"

Unfortunately, weapons experts agree that even the most primitive enemy missiles are
more likely to carry a very different kind of accessory, namely, decoys designed to fool
the computerized sensors aboard the kill vehicle. While the missile launched from
Vandenberg on July 14 did spit out a single Mylar balloon as a symbolic decoy, that
scarcely challenged the kill vehicle's capacity to select the correct target -- particularly
because there was no GPS beacon on that shiny balloon. In real warfare, an incoming
missile is expected to deploy multiple decoys of varying shapes and sizes to lure the
kill vehicle astray. Past tests have indicated that these simple fakes work far more
reliably than the complex technology designed to detect them.

Eventually, the truth about the inherent problems of national missile defense may
emerge in congressional hearings. But meanwhile, the Pentagon and the Bush White
House mean to stifle any dissent about the capabilities of their favorite toy. They have
repeatedly sought to reclassify documents that show that the system doesn't function
as advertised. And within the past few weeks, they have blatantly attempted to
intimidate Theodore Postol, a professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology who
is the country's leading critic of missile defense.

In early July, according to the Chronicle of Higher Education, Defense Department
officials asked MIT to confiscate the reclassified report from Postol and to "investigate
[his] actions." At first MIT president Charles Vest, no doubt worried about millions of
dollars in defense research grants to his university, moved to comply with that request.
Only when Postol protested publicly did MIT back down.

Bogus tests and bullied critics are the hallmarks of a defense establishment that fears
facts. With billions in contracts at stake and bellicose ideologues in power, the
salesmen for national missile defense must conceal the many defects in their
dangerous product. And the press corps, reverting to the bad habits of the Cold War,
has done little so far to penetrate the Pentagon's propaganda.

So when the next "successful" missile-defense test is announced with fanfare and
fireworks, don't necessarily believe what you hear. You are the buyers targeted by this
massive sales effort -- and you should most certainly beware.


http://www.salon.com/news/col/cona/2001/07/31/test/index.html



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