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OfflineAlan Stone
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To all converts
    #3544687 - 12/26/04 06:39 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Do you think it is possible to uproot the weeds of your native culture? Do you think, for instance, a Christian raised person can ever truly understand the buddhist point of view and become entwined with it?

In other words, is true conversion possible?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Edited by Alan Stone (12/26/04 08:14 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: To all converts [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3544707 - 12/26/04 06:48 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I have always judged religions by their methods, i have met many christians who have had similar spiritual experiences to that of buddhist practitioners, and vice versa. The great thing about buddhism is that nothing is negated, all religions are seen as nessasery, becuase human beings have different capacities, their are different religions manifested to work with all people of varying levels of capacity.

Buddhism just has more methods than other religoins thats all. The essence is the same. To find happiness and be free of suffering. I dont beleive any uprooting is neccassary if you understand the essence. As they say in buddhism "To know one is to know all".

From a christian perspective i suppose your could say "To know god is to know all"  :smile:


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Edited by Sinbad (12/26/04 06:51 PM)


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: To all converts [Re: Sinbad]
    #3544714 - 12/26/04 06:52 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

"To know one is to know all"

"To know god is to know all"



One possible problem right there. As far as I understood the Tibetan Book of the Dead, Tibetan Buddhism consideres Gods to be psychological archetypes of the mind. That can't possibly be compatible with Christianity.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineFrog
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Re: To all converts [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3544752 - 12/26/04 07:06 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

We are usually indoctrinated into a system of beliefs from birth. By the time we are adults, I imagine that we don't know what the basis is for what we believe any more. How we came to believe what we believe. (I'm not talking about people who are continually seeking answers to why they believe the way they do, or looking for answers to life, etc.)

If I am indoctrinated into my belief system, I guess I will find it difficult to understand completely the Bhuddist point of view, although I appreciate their point of view.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: To all converts [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3544759 - 12/26/04 07:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Do you think a person can truly cast aside the beliefs/religion that they were raised in?

If so, would that pave the way for true acceptance/understanding of a differing viewpoint/religion?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: To all converts [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3544766 - 12/26/04 07:12 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Their are many views in buddhism, but generally most buddhist philosophies do not negate the existence of god, its more that they refer to god as a state of being rather than an external force governing our lives.

Many renowned buddhist masters, have no problem teaching pure buddhism to christian devotees.

To name a few:

Soygyal Rinpoche - Tibetan buddhist master
Choyal Namhkai Norbu Rinpoche - Dzogchen Master
Shynru Suzuki - Zen buddhist master


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (12/26/04 07:17 PM)


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: To all converts [Re: trendal]
    #3544971 - 12/26/04 08:13 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think everyone can, that's why I asked. I think cultural influences will influence your thoughts on a subconscious level, and to become conscious of their influence is not an easy task. Once it's accomplished, it becomes a lot easier to understand different religions, because you can listen with an unbiased, truly open mind.

Quote:

its more that they refer to god as a state of being rather than an external force governing our lives.



That in itself is incompatible with Christian belief. Christians converting to buddhism will have a hard time shedding the belief that God is an external force.

Quote:

Many renowned buddhist masters, have no problem teaching pure buddhism to christian devotees.



I'm sure that's true. That's because they themselves were raised in buddhist culture. But can Christians ever truly convert to buddhism?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: To all converts [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3545148 - 12/26/04 08:53 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

There's two parts to a belief system:

A. The Doctrine and,
B. The Principles

For example, Christianity holds the doctrine of resurrection, whereas Budhism holds the doctrine of reincarnation. Resurrection implies being reborn as yourself, in your original form; reincarnation implies being reborn in another form.

While these DOCTRINES disagree, the PRINCPLES of budhism and christianity, for the most part, agree. For example, a principle which both of these religions accept (and almost all other religions in history) is to love and respect other people.

Complete conversion from one belief system to another is possible, but it requires a denial of all former doctrinal beliefs which conflict with the new belief. After a person makes such a conversion they can still be sympathetic towards the followers of their old belief, unless the new belief forbids this kind of sympathy. Fortunately, there is a trend toward acceptance and toleration of other beliefs in most of todays modern religions.

History is rife with examples of belief systems which merged due to cultural integration. It's surely happening today, as we speak, but it is a gradual process which only time lapse photography could capture.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: To all converts [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3545227 - 12/26/04 09:04 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"I'm sure that's true. That's because they themselves were raised in buddhist culture. But can Christians ever truly convert to buddhism? "

i would think a person would be hardpressed to say every christian can't convert to a different idea. the idea of a monetheistic god is jsut that...an idea. in order for a person to accept a new idea, it must be logically acceptable to him/her. either that, or something in their experince made them lean towards the buddhist way of thinking (if there is such a thing)

my father was born christian, but turned atheist. he went from saying there was a god to there isn't one. that change in the idea of god can be comparable to to a christian changing into a buddhist.

my older bro wa a hardcore christian nut, then turned muslim, and now is leaning towards a "we are all one consciousness" idea.

anyone can change an idea, it's just up to the person.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: To all converts [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3545343 - 12/26/04 09:24 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

A heavy dose of LSD, mescaline, shrooms, DMT, or salvia can, and probably will change most christians minds.....whether or not they adjust well is another matter though.


--------------------


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Offlineincubaby_421
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Re: To all converts [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3546339 - 12/27/04 01:56 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

religions arent compatable you sillies, if they were, they would all be the same, to answer the question, i dont have the slightest inclination of how to answer, being ecclectic, i have researched upon many a religion and personally think every organized religion is complete bullshit, but could my viewpoint be changed, or a christains to mine, i dont think it possible, let us all show each other our heresies and we shall begin to find out.


--------------------
"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: To all converts [Re: soulmotion]
    #3547164 - 12/27/04 08:27 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

As i see it buddhism is not a belif system. Buddha never said, "this is the truth you must believe this", he just presented pracical methods for understanding our own minds. As long as one understands how to do practice, and get into the essence of that religion, then there are no conflicts whatsoever.

As far as beliefs go, if you want to belive in an external benelovolence and you see that as right for you, then you wouldnt neccasserily go out of your way to find any other religion apart from the one you practiciing (chrisitanity, judaism, islam), on the other hand if you find the methods of of your current religion unsatisafctory for you, then maybe you will go out and see what else is availiable.

Yes the essence of all the religoins is love, respect and compassion, but we have to take into account the individuals capacity for learning, applying and getting into the essence of their religion.

Buddism as a whole, has many levels of practice and many more methods than other religions.

For people practicing christianiny if they have an idea of ressurection, they mean that when they die they are ressurected in heaven, as themselves. There are similar belifes in buddhsim, the pure land teahcing say if you practice certain methods then when you die you will instantly find yourself in the pure land of the buddhas.

If your veiw of a religoin is that of a belief system, then you do not fully understand the essesnce of your religion.


--------------------


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: To all converts [Re: Sinbad]
    #3547215 - 12/27/04 08:45 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Christians believe humans have souls.
Buddhists reject that humans have souls.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: To all converts [Re: dorkus]
    #3547227 - 12/27/04 08:53 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

This is true that buddism tends not to use the term 'soul' as it implies that there is some perminent self that must be liberated. But truley buddhism does not reject any belief as buddist see that all religions manifested in response to the needs of all beings of varying capacities.

Generally though i think that too much emphasis is placed on belief and too little on the actual practice of religion.

As one great teacher once said "All religoins are perfect, its human beings that create problems"


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (12/27/04 08:55 AM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: To all converts [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3547257 - 12/27/04 09:16 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"Do you think it is possible to uproot the weeds of your native culture? "

its not possible to sever all ties and influences of your upbringing, but if by weeds you mean the lingering psychoses and nervous guilt and shit that can come from, say a catholic upbringing, id say you can absolutely overcome that/

"Do you think, for instance, a Christian raised person can ever truly understand the buddhist point of view and become entwined with it? "

absolutely. why not? theres millions of buddhists from every race and culture.


"In other words, is true conversion possible? "

i certainly think so, and in my own life ive seen it happen.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: To all converts [Re: Sinbad]
    #3547539 - 12/27/04 11:40 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Generally though i think that too much emphasis is placed on belief and too little on the actual practice of religion.




I have become wary of people who proclaim their good deeds in the name of God. Usually, I find that when you turn these people over, you find the tasteless underside, as if you had turned over a rock.

I don't know, though, if religion can be "practiced". What is meant by the practice of religion? Going to church? Doing good deeds? What makes a good [Bhuddist, Christian, Muslim, Jehoveh's Witness, etc.]?

Quote:

As one great teacher once said "All religoins are perfect, its human beings that create problems"




I believe that to be true. The most blatant form of this would be the Christian crusades. These days, it's enough to verbally insult someone else for their beliefs.

I still don't understand why someone would do something evil in the name of God, or why someone would slam someone for his/her beliefs. Is it fear?

For instance, when I see someone on this forum knocking someone for his/her beliefs, I wonder...is it insecurity? Is it fear? Is it a need to elevate one's self by making fun of the beliefs of the other?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlineincubaby_421
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Re: To all converts [Re: Frog]
    #3547865 - 12/27/04 01:38 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

humans dont have souls
souls have humans.


--------------------
"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



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OfflineFrog
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Re: To all converts [Re: incubaby_421]
    #3547882 - 12/27/04 01:42 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I had to think about that for a minute, and I'm amused as I write, "Good point!" Our bodies are but vehicles for our souls?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: To all converts [Re: Frog]
    #3548005 - 12/27/04 02:18 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
I don't know, though, if religion can be "practiced". What is meant by the practice of religion? Going to church? Doing good deeds? What makes a good [Bhuddist, Christian, Muslim, Jehoveh's Witness, etc.]?





The belief is to talk the talk.

The practice is to walk the walk.

The practice of one's religion should be the day to day manifestation of the beliefs they hold.

It is a matter of applying your spirituality to every waking moment of your life.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: To all converts [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3548287 - 12/27/04 03:44 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said
its not possible to sever all ties and influences of your upbringing, but if by weeds you mean the lingering psychoses and nervous guilt and shit that can come from, say a catholic upbringing, id say you can absolutely overcome that/



Naw, I mean the notion that if something goes wrong, someone is to blame, among others. Is that not a Judeo-Christian concept? Liability?

Quote:

kaiowas said:
my father was born christian, but turned atheist. he went from saying there was a god to there isn't one. that change in the idea of god can be comparable to to a christian changing into a buddhist.



Yeah, but "converting" to atheism isn't a change of paradigm that requires the adaptation of another culture. Changing to buddhism, Islam or Sikhism is. That is, if you want to understand the ideas without unwillingly misunderstanding.

I once saw a documentary about American Christians who converted to Islam. Pretty soon they were telling the people born as muslims how to practice Islam. In any case, they were no strong evidence for people being able to "uproot".


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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