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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Martyrs
    #3528696 - 12/21/04 07:47 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I do not understand the philosophy of the martyr or how they progress causes along or how it is the best way one can think of to get attention for change they wish to see. religions were full of people dying over their beleifs.

Help me understand how this happened and happens and what would be other solutions?

While were at it, how did sacrifices made to the gods come into play too and how did it make sense to people. I relate these two topics.

I just don't get it, is it neccesary or just foolish and pride ego thinking?  :confused:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (12/21/04 07:49 PM)


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3528747 - 12/21/04 08:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

We used to call my mother Martyr. Was that cruel?


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3528794 - 12/21/04 08:12 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

hahahahahaha

My mom is a total sacrifical martyr too and I use to call her one.

Now that I think about it, I was bitchen yesterday about the sacrifices I have made to raise my daughter. Parents do seem to fall into self sacrifice for their childrens greater good.

Do they have to? Is it necessary? Does one have to give up of their life so another can have more of life. What is the more anyway? Isn't their enough life to go around so everyone can have it?

I'm more confused now then when I stared this :tongue:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3528827 - 12/21/04 08:20 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The cycle of life goes around when Jiggy's daughter calls mom a martyr and mom gets upset...

And so on. And so on.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3528870 - 12/21/04 08:36 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Real martyrs don't see it coming.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Martyrs [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3528899 - 12/21/04 08:47 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Blind Faith, great band. Traffic too. Stevie is my kinda rock and roll martyr. Dear Mr. Fantasy, play us a tune, something to make us all happy...


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: Martyrs [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3528901 - 12/21/04 08:48 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Unlike my mom, I don't tell my daughter about it. It was my choise and over all I'm cool with it, but there are days................LOL ahem

Zahid, can you explain what you mean by a real martyr and the difference between them and Joan of Arc?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3528927 - 12/21/04 09:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"I don't tell my daughter about it"

No, Jiggy, I was talking about your daughter telling you about those infrequent days when ahem lol  :wink:


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: Martyrs [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3528966 - 12/21/04 09:11 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

You lost me


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3528978 - 12/21/04 09:14 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Anyway, back to topic,

Are martyrs for causes related to the greater good neccesary and where to scarifices fit in for the greater good, are they necessary?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3529027 - 12/21/04 09:28 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Often, religious matyrs have been emotionally prepared to give up their life for something that they see as greater than this frail shell of a body. They believe in a continuation of life, a much greater place that they will be guaranteed to reach afterwards, as they have made the sacrifice for the common good.

And while being guaranteed a place in the afterlife, they are often advancing their own and their group's political and moral beliefs, as they see themselves as helping their "group," whether it be their race, country, or a small cult, succeed in this world by taking out those who would seem to harm them.

Some also have pure revenge on their breath. Perhaps their family was killed by the enemy, and their house torn down. They will have nothing left to lose in this life, as they see it.

Though it is a case-by-case scenario, as with any murderers or politicians. All are different, even if some are similar.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3529054 - 12/21/04 09:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Unlike my mom, I don't tell my daughter about it. It was my choise and over all I'm cool with it, but there are days................LOL ahem

Zahid, can you explain what you mean by a real martyr and the difference between them and Joan of Arc?




Let's use Muslims for example. Bint Asman, one of the first womens to convert to Islam during the time of the Prophet Muhammad - was brutally tortured and murdered after being kidnapped by angry Meccans who hated Muhammad. They told her to abandon her faith in God or face death. She refused, was consequently murdered, and became a martyr in every sense of the word.

Bint Asman though cannot be compared to a latter day assassin like Mohammed Atta, who intentionally killed himself and others in what he perceived as a self-sacrificial act of faith.

The Christians who were fed to lions were martyrs. The Christians who died in the crusades were not martyrs.

Martyrdom is unfortunately deeply abused by religious literalists. Real martyrs don't see their martyrdom coming. They don't openly seek martyrdom. Doing such is a suger coated suicide that won't deceive God one bit.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3529187 - 12/21/04 10:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

well the vast majority or martyrs were not people who deliberatly killed themselves to gain attention for a cause. most of them were people who held a belief that was not appoved of by the powers that be, and were killed by those people for holding said belief.

Basically they were usually people who refused to renounce there beliefs at sword point and were killed. christians killed by muslims, muslims by christians, etc, for refusing to convert.

Sacrafices to the gods as i understand it had to do with fear and thankfullness. people saw death around them all the time, and they believed in gods who chose who died and who lived. Because they saw death and they believed all things to be controlled by the god/s, it made sense to them to assume that the gods hungerd for life, and thus they fed themselves or satisfie themselves by claiming some living things every day.


so it made sense to them to placate the gods by sacraficing animals or people or whatever, in the hopes that that blood would satiate the gods hunger and they themselves would be spared.

its not that simple of course but that seems to be the basic thinking


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3529439 - 12/21/04 11:39 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I appreciate all of the perspectives on this subject. There are so many ways to look at it, so many motives and circumstances.

I havn't thought this deeply on anything in a long time. To many thoughts going on in my head to type it. Just wanted to say

THANK YOU! :smile:

Oh, but out of curiousity, does anyone here have a belief they feel so strongly about affirming publically, that they would maintain it with a sword at their neck willing to die for it? I've been asking  myself that question and it led to all sorts of other thoughts.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Martyrs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3529613 - 12/22/04 12:24 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

i wouldnt change my beliefs, id just lie to avoid getting killed.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Martyrs [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3529703 - 12/22/04 12:43 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I've always been annoyed with the concept of martyrdom.

Socrates was an idiot for drinking that hemlock.

And the whole crucifixion thing... I just can't buy the literal interpretation. But I'll take it as a metaphor for ego transcendence.


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: Martyrs [Re: Sclorch]
    #3529947 - 12/22/04 01:29 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

First I want to say you can't fully encompass all those who died for religious beliefs in one grouping, I bet part of the trouble you had jiggy thinking about martyrdom was due to trying to reconcile Mohammed Atta and Joan of Arc within the same label.

Anyway martyrs are often used to validate religious views; if people are percieved to be giving thier lives for a belief system, it provides great affirmation for the followers of the religion.

On sacrificial offerings, my understanding was it was a product of early man's realizations that life begets life, that death was necessary for life. Especially in animistic religions where beliefs were interrelated with survival and religion seemed to be quite utilitarian.


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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