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Offlinetomk
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Mushroom dreaming - Lots more info
    #3519195 - 12/19/04 02:07 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I read some stuff that said a tiny dose of shrooms has a huge effect on dreaming and REM sleep, so I've been taking a tiny amount (~.05 g cyanescens).

It's been effective so far. It seems to improve my mood a lot too. Anyone else try this?

Lots more info about 8 posts down.


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Edited by tomk (12/19/04 05:35 PM)


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: tomk]
    #3519256 - 12/19/04 02:37 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

got any links to the articles?


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InvisibleHendostan
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: fresh313]
    #3519265 - 12/19/04 02:43 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

i've never heard of this, but it's an interesting idea...links to articles would be good
.05g cyan would be about .1g cube for the same effect, right? i might try that :grin:


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Offlinebaraka
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: tomk]
    #3519333 - 12/19/04 03:09 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think u will have trouble falling asleep. Maybe take some right before u feel like yer going to pass out before it kicks in.

I wonder if you would wake up, im sure someone has tried this.


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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: baraka]
    #3519352 - 12/19/04 03:15 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe if you are an experienced shroomer then you might not wake back up if you get to sleep, but if you DO wake up just after REM sleep then I bet you'd be having some pretty fucked up thoughts (as sober they're already strange if you can remember them when you wake up)


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3519573 - 12/19/04 05:28 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think the stuff was from lucid dreaming stuff about drugs that increase REM sleep.

No trouble falling asleep. If I wake up I stay up for an hour then sleep again for lucid dreams.


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OfflineTheProdigy
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: tomk]
    #3519582 - 12/19/04 05:38 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

... what would that do to your tolerance levels?


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InvisibleEvilEwok
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: TheProdigy]
    #3519593 - 12/19/04 06:15 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Eh I dont know... I usually fall asleep as soon as I can on comedowns for my trips, and I usually dont have any dreams. Which is weird becuase I always have dreams when sober.

But everyone is different.


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Mushroom Dreaming [Re: tomk]
    #3521015 - 12/19/04 05:37 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

OK you people asked for articles here they are. 

Let me present my case and then put articles and quotes at the end.  I had trouble finding direct documentation, so my case is roundabout.  In presenting my case I address several things raised by posters.  I would love to hear comments especially from those with experience on the science end of things.

First, Serotonin activity does not occur during REM sleep.
Second, LSD will decrease inhibitory mechanisms that keep things from conscious awareness, through action on 5-HT-2 receptors
Third, this LSD effect will increase dreaming
Fourth, Psilocybin acts on those same reactors, albiet with more auditory effects.
Conclusion, Psilocybin will increase dreaming. 

That is all I have support for at the moment, but let me add some conjecture:

First, psilocybin has more auditory effects then LSD, so the dream characteristics are different.
Second, a micro-dose is sufficient because during REM sleep, serotonin activity is nil.  While awake and tripping, serotonin levels are high, so more psilocybin is needed.
Third,  you do not dream after a trip because hallucinations and dreams are so related.  After tripping for several hours, your brain is 'dreamed out' as it were and may not be up for more of the neural activity that is responsible for both tripping and dreaming. 
Fourth, tolerance will not develop.  Tolerance for mushrooms basically involves getting used to the psychedelic state.  Since you are not entering a psychedelic state, you cannot get used to it, and tolerance will not develop.
Fifth, this will not be synergistic with Calea.  Calea inducing dreams during non-REM sleep.  But during non-rem sleep there is serotonin activity.  Since serotonin activity would drown out the effects of the micro-dose (?), no or little synergy will be present.  However, synergy might be present in that dreams would be extended and of dirrening characteristics from the change between non-REM calea induced dreaming and REM+psilocybin dreaming.  I currently have no Calea or money to obtain Calea, so I cannot test this unless I get money or someone donates to research :laugh:
Here is some documentation for facts I state in my case.

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/pinealstory.htm

"One of the first significant discoveries about the serotonergic system in the brain was that it's activity was dramatically altered across the sleep-wake cycle. Serotonergic activity gradually decreases as one becomes drowsy and enter slow-wave sleep. An overall slowing of serotonergic activity is observed during slow-wave sleep known as non-REM sleep. During REM sleep (Rapid Eye Movement-the original dream sleep), serotonergic activity falls completely silent. Serotonergic activity returns to it's basic level several seconds prior to the end of REM sleep. REM sleep occurs in roughly 90-100 minute cycles, alternating with non-REM sleep (around 4 to 5 times during sleep). During non-REM sleep, there is lots of movement, but during REM sleep, only the eye muscles move. REM-dreaming turns on neurons in the medulla of the brainstem that inhibit all other motor activity. In this way it prevents the dreamer from sleepwalking and to act out his/her dreams in real time."

http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?A=ShowDoc1&ID=3929
"The consistency and magnitude of the decrease of the latency of REM and dream incidence by LSD infusion warrent the assumption of a relationship between intracellurlar LSD increase and REM or Dream incidence."

"According to the mechanism described, LSD will temporarily decrease some inhibitory mechanisms responsible for keeping many cerebral processes from conscious awareness.  This would result in dreaming during sleep and hallucinations during wakefullness  The assumed connection between dreams, hallucinations, and memory storage and retrieval processes is further substantiated by LSD hallucinations being heavily loaded with old memories.."

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_faq.shtml#mechanism
Aghajanian embarked in 1980 upon a series of studies to evaluate how psychedelic drugs affect the locus coeruleus. He showed that any kind of sensory stimulation--sight, sound, smell, taste, or tactile sensation--speeds up the firing of locus coeruleus neurons in rats, and that the accelerated firing is greatly enhanced by treating the animals with LSD or mescaline. In contrast, nonpsychedelic drugs, such as amphetamines and antidepressants, fail to exert this effect. Moreover, the LSD analogue methysergide, which has no psychedelic effects in humans, is correspondingly ineffective in enhancing the reactivity of locus coeruleus neurons to sensory stimulation. Although psychedelic drugs increase the response of locus coeruleus cells to sensory stimulation, they do not cause the neurons to fire spontaneously in the absence of such stimulation. Moreover, directly applying LSD or mescaline to locus coeruleus neurons does not enhance the neurons' reponse to sensory stimulation. We must therefore conclude that the effect of psychedelic drugs on sensory stimulation is indirect--the drugs presumably interact with a different set of neurons that in turn make direct contact with the locus coeruleus. What is particularly fascinating about Aghajanian's findings is how nicely they correspond to what we know about the effects of psychedelic drugs in humans, and how readily they explain the way psychedelic drugs accentuate all our sensory perceptions.

http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n1/07112bea.html
Psilocybin is an "agonist[ ] or partial agonist[ ] at several subtypes of the serotonin (5HT) receptor: 5HT-2, 5HT-1c, and 5HT-1a" (Strassman, 1992, p. 241), and the chemical structure of psilocybin's metabolite, psilocin, is close in structure to serotonin.


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: baraka]
    #3521053 - 12/19/04 05:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

  I've always wondered what it would be like to get dosed while you're sleeping....it kicks in, you wake up tripping balls.  :lol: :weirdeyes: :lol:


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Offlinetwilight715
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: EvilEwok]
    #3521563 - 12/19/04 08:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

you always have dreams, you just don't remember them when you wake up all the time.


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"He was too weird to live, and too rare to die."
- Hunter S. Thompson

"Mushrooms have no known adverse side-effects, other than leaving you feeling fatigued and probably surrounded by a load of mad paintings and some half-eaten chocolate bars."


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InvisibleWoodsCall
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: twilight715]
    #3521717 - 12/19/04 08:47 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I can't sleep AT ALL no matter how much or how little shroom I've eaten. I don't think I can enter REM with psilocybe/psilocyn in my system. But as I come down, I am very tired. It reminds me of doing coke (EVIL SHIT).....


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: WoodsCall]
    #3521739 - 12/19/04 08:55 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

That might be placebo effect. I can sleep just fine on it. It really only requires a tiny amout. 1 dime size cap would be enough for 3 nights.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: tomk]
    #3521851 - 12/19/04 09:28 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

What sort of results have you been having...could you post them please?

Are there any other factors that could influence the effects you claim?

Theoretically you seem to have a reasonably sound and logical case. However there are many other potentially confounding variables, such as your own subjectivity and biases, and most importantly, the placebo effect. I think it would be great if a few people on the forums here were willing to conduct an at-home experiment for maybe a week or two, and investigate the effects of dosing a small amount before sleep.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

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Offlinetomk
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: dblaney]
    #3521877 - 12/19/04 09:35 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not typing em up yet but the one really noticable effect was a change in my perspective. Most of the time I remember dreams from my point of view, but these dreams have all been like I am watching a movie where I am one of the characters.

Edit:

Thats a little unclear. What I mean is that it's like I'm seeing things from a third, not a first person perspective which has never happened while dreaming normally.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


Edited by tomk (12/19/04 09:54 PM)


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Tiny shroom dose at night [Re: tomk]
    #3522282 - 12/19/04 11:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I thought of something else. This probably won't work while you are smoking a lot of marijuana. Since the mushrooms take effect during REM sleep, and pot suppresses REM sleep.


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