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OfflineGlobalSmoke
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Mushroom Generations
    #3518771 - 12/19/04 12:42 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

OK so i was reading in another post about mushrooms becoming weak in further generations. can some one give me a link or even explain to me why the mushroom gets weaker when you perform g2g or even explain to me how the (for lack of better terms) the mushroom de-generates?

oh btw, i cant express enough how informative this sight has been so far, and i just wanted to say thank you to all that have helped me.


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Offlineliveby
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: GlobalSmoke]
    #3518819 - 12/19/04 12:55 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

so 5 million years ago they wear 99% magic , its bs !


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Offlineliveby
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: liveby]
    #3518825 - 12/19/04 12:57 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

using the substrates today y shouldnt they get MORE POTENT?


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OfflineGlobalSmoke
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: liveby]
    #3518901 - 12/19/04 01:12 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

thats what im sayin


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Offlineliveby
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: GlobalSmoke]
    #3518942 - 12/19/04 01:18 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

it doesn't happen like mushrooms ova thousand year might have less/more AVERAGE potency Different but a next generation is unlikely , but every mushrooms different is potency that's y I'm talking about averages!


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OfflineGlobalSmoke
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: liveby]
    #3519170 - 12/19/04 02:01 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

i just dont understand that if you use some spore for example, than make some jars, then make some more jars with grain from the first batch to inoculate it, then so on and so on, how the hell is the mushroom changing. isnt it still the same clone? so one help me. anno where are you at my friend?


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: GlobalSmoke]
    #3519290 - 12/19/04 02:55 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Consider this. G2G is sort of like a human pregnancy. The myc is colonizing, RIGHT.

If you kept a embryo in a womb, then when it was near birth, transferred it to a another womb, so on & so forth, multiples of times.

DO YOU THINK THE BABY WOULD BE NORMAL, when it is born?

I don?t think so. I don?t G2G past G3. Otherwise, defects begin to show up.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: agar]
    #3519340 - 12/19/04 03:12 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

So you can transfer a foetus to a new womb up to 3 times? Didn't know that :wink:


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: Anno]
    #3519420 - 12/19/04 04:00 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
So you can transfer a foetus to a new womb up to 3 times? Didn't know that :wink:




LOL?????? :confused:

No????? only colonized spawn, to un-colonized spawn, in a suitable container.

I think if you did that with a human fetus......

the result might be something like this. :eek:



Edited by agar (12/19/04 04:09 AM)


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OfflineDaturaEnigma
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: agar]
    #3519768 - 12/19/04 09:44 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Lmao, That would be one fucked up kid right there.


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OfflineGlobalSmoke
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: DaturaEnigma]
    #3522166 - 12/19/04 10:40 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

thank u for your input


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Offlineticktock
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: GlobalSmoke]
    #3522536 - 12/20/04 12:00 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Marry your sister and there's a good chance that your kids will be messed up. If your kids then marry each other, your grand kids probably won't be at the tops of their classes. Continue for a couple more generations and you will end up with basket cases.

It's the same,(sort of), with breeding generation after generation from mycelium or tissue cultures. The mushrooms that you buy in the grocery are probably less than 4 generations from spores. Going from grain to grain is a lot easier, but the growers know where the profit margin falls off. They can't allow the yields to drop, or to put gnarly looking produce on the shelves.

At least that's what my uncle dad says :smile:


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: ticktock]
    #3523316 - 12/20/04 04:54 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Actually it is different. You don't have generations here, since you have the same mycelium throughout. You are only expanding the mycelium, you keep it actively growing for a long time.
It is not about generations, it is about the age.

The longer the mycelium has been actively growing , the more errors come in on the cell level when the cells multiply. It is like in people. Think of aging in humans.

Leave a human actively grow for 100 years, and it won't be as agile anymore as a 10 year old.
Leave a mycelium actively grow for 100 days, and it won't be as agile anymore as an 10 days old mycelium.


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: Anno]
    #3523641 - 12/20/04 10:21 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

^^^^^^^  :thumbup:SO TRUE :thumbup:


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InvisibleADoobie
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: agar]
    #3523736 - 12/20/04 11:15 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Anno, Agar good thoughts.
I am starting my Agar experiments next week. When Isolating multi-spore cultures into single sub-strains..Explain that process and how it relates to they "aging" of myc...

Lets say you have 10 sub-strains that show up in your master dish. Simple isolation techniques give you (lets say in a perfect world) 10 sub-strain "master" dishes. From those ten, you chose two that you find to be superb, and create a few copies of each for inoculations. You discard or put into storage the remaining eight. You made the copies so you can experiment with your isolated sub-strain without damaging the original

Now, in terms of generation that was explained by agar...by the time you get to inoculation the myc is 4 generations old. Follow me:
Master (1st gen)
10 sub-strain dishes (2cnd)
Selected dish multiplied out into (3rd)
Inoculated Substrate (4th)

Now in terms of age explained by Anno, your inoculated substrate is the same generation, however it has lost some of it's youth/vigor.

Agar also explained the transfer of myc to be comparable to that of changing a baby from one womb to the next. I am in no way challenging your knowledge of the subject, however I do disagree with the analogy. We are talking about isolating and transferring the mold from one sterile (consistent) environment to the next. Scientists can't even create an artificial environment to "grow" a fetus...that says to me we are talking about apples and oranges when comparing the two...

Now. As a side note, I know I started that thread the other day talking about grains, just as this one is. I could see there being a closer comparison between grains and a womb due to the increased complexity of its nature as compared to the simplicity of agar. However, it would seem that both Agar's and Anno's answers apply to agar...hence my questions...

That meens there is a tradeoff between substrain isolation (because of the loss of vigor through age) and just innoculating from the master dish. On one hand you have selected a superior myc, but now its lost some vigor. On the other hand, you have a mix of myc, but it is all young. What gives?


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ADoobie said:
I know what strikes me as odd about this. It is totally unnatural. The whole idea is just totally backwards.

So are historians going to look back at 'The Great Cake Eaters'? Damn. That was a backwards step in the evolutionary process. We left Shroomheads in the dust. Welcome to the new age of Vermheads.

VvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVv

I ONLY STUDY legal, edible mushrooms and mycology. Any mention of any other kind of mushroom is purely fictional, and pictures are ripped from the internet. I do not grow mushrooms!


Edited by ADoobie (12/20/04 11:18 AM)


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: ADoobie]
    #3523849 - 12/20/04 12:21 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

First, I am no wizard & my observations are nothing more that casual. Agar isolates differ a bit. The fetus in a womb, was only an analogy. Perhaps I could have made a better one. For instance, over eons genetics have been formed that create life cycles in humans,animals, plants & fungi.

In fungi, a spore from a mushroom gill is dropped into a nature setting & transported by air currents. It goes its way, lands somewhere random, and if the environment where it landed is right. It settles in, spends a winter.

In the spring, with proper stimuli, I. E., warmth, moisture & nutrients, it geminates, grows, mates, increases it underground mass with the intent to propagate it species, given the right future stimulus.

Weather conditions change towards the fall, the genetic stimulus it carries within it cell structure - tells the mycelium mass it?s time to form pins at the grounds surface, fruit, drop spores & it proceeds to just that. So, the life cycle that allowed it to survive over eons may continue.

If it does not fruit, the mycelium mass, not well suited to survive a winter freeze, may die without propagating itself.

Outside a natural setting, fungi?s ingrained genetics still rule the roost in whatever artificial environment it is contained in (spore, agar plate, spawn jar, or bag & substrate).

Spores germinate, mate, grow, increase in mass, as best it can & wait for the genetically programmed stimulus, to pin, fruit & drop spores.

This is where we fool with mother nature. We store & propagate a mycelium mass by artificial means. In doing so, we often do things that conflict with mycelia?s genetic traits. Those artificially induced stimuli, enviroments or conflicts often lead to genetic aberrations, or mutations.

Some of which are counter productive to our intended purposes. You can only stretch a metal wire so far, before it breaks. The same goes for genetic traits, before they degrade, or mutate.


Edited by agar (12/20/04 12:28 PM)


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InvisibleADoobie
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: agar]
    #3523916 - 12/20/04 12:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

A better clarification to be sure...

Then I suppose the question should be refined;

Has anyone noticed significant degration/mutation in the spreading of myc over substrates (paticularly agar strain isolations) BEFORE fruiting occurs?


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ADoobie said:
I know what strikes me as odd about this. It is totally unnatural. The whole idea is just totally backwards.

So are historians going to look back at 'The Great Cake Eaters'? Damn. That was a backwards step in the evolutionary process. We left Shroomheads in the dust. Welcome to the new age of Vermheads.

VvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVvVv

I ONLY STUDY legal, edible mushrooms and mycology. Any mention of any other kind of mushroom is purely fictional, and pictures are ripped from the internet. I do not grow mushrooms!


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OfflineGlobalSmoke
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: Anno]
    #3525140 - 12/20/04 07:36 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
Actually it is different. You don't have generations here, since you have the same mycelium throughout. You are only expanding the mycelium, you keep it actively growing for a long time.
It is not about generations, it is about the age.

The longer the mycelium has been actively growing , the more errors come in on the cell level when the cells multiply. It is like in people. Think of aging in humans.

Leave a human actively grow for 100 years, and it won't be as agile anymore as a 10 year old.
Leave a mycelium actively grow for 100 days, and it won't be as agile anymore as an 10 days old mycelium.




that was the best piece of info i have read yet, and it explains exactly what i thought would happen. you are very much appreciated


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: GlobalSmoke]
    #3526328 - 12/21/04 02:18 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"Actually it is different. You don't have generations here, since you have the same mycelium throughout. You are only expanding the mycelium, you keep it actively growing for a long time.
It is not about generations, it is about the age.

The longer the mycelium has been actively growing , the more errors come in on the cell level when the cells multiply. It is like in people. Think of aging in humans.

Leave a human actively grow for 100 years, and it won't be as agile anymore as a 10 year old.
Leave a mycelium actively grow for 100 days, and it won't be as agile anymore as an 10 days old mycelium. "

Thats definatly explained the best I've seen..Anno has a way of describing things very simply and effectivly...


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineLaughingJim
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Re: Mushroom Generations [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3528344 - 12/21/04 05:46 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

If you want to help the mushroom community... Record each batches potency, (Easy if you also trip yourself).

Each batch should have one mushroom designated for prints. Then you sample that batch. If that batch doesn't do it for you... Throw those spores out... When you find a super shroom, use those spores.

If you continue to do this, you will filter out the weaker ones. The same way that pot-growers do. Well, any farmer...

Another thing to watch for is ones that grow fast, and short. As opposed to fast and tall, (Gigantus disease, AKA: DNA Elephantitus), which could leat to a new breed of (Amazonian), but will most likely end up as a genetic anomoly breed which usually becomes sterile, (No spores, or sterile spores).

In my case, I welcome contamination. I am selecting shrooms that have a strong dominance over the contaminations... where possible, some contamination is just lethal on contact. (EG, better genetic tolerance.)

As it stands, over-all, I am attempting to select those with...
- Short/medium builds (Potential higher potency per volume)
- Thick/rigid stems and caps (Phisically stronger to handling)
- Fast/medium cultivation (Step 1 toward contamination survival)
- Survivors (Ones that survive a totally contaminated cake)
- Uncontaminated abused cakes (Cakes purposely over-exposed to potential contamination, which yielded no contamination durring any stages. Due possibly to myceliums anti-contamination genetics.)

In the end, I should have a nice set of super strains. (I always mix cap spores, so that I potentially reduce cross bred siblings.) EG, one needle at every injection point... Four points = four needles from four diffrent caps in one jar... (Same breed, not amazonians and mexicana... all B+)

My final shrooms will all be called (A+) LOL... :smile:


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Edited by LaughingJim (12/21/04 05:49 PM)


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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Agar

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