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Invisibleredgreenvines
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More Thoughts on the Stack.
    #3516719 - 12/18/04 11:29 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)


I have mentioned here and elsewhere that my theory of mind, consciousness and memory (derived from hundreds of psychedelic reflections) is based upon a biological process that supports the assimilation of similarities, and the recall of images triggered by likeness, but mostly I have talked about entheogen causing images to stack up ? whole moments full of all sensation stack up as the fading part becomes much slower in the brain (because of mushroom/ salvia/ acid/ grass etc.).

While I have been here at S&P I have refined the theory of mind using observations offered by the members, and by my own sharpened views on the matter.

One particular observation of merit has been that there is a period of time ? approximately 3 seconds long ? through which an entire thought or facet of personality can manifest and fade. Normally I refer to facets of personality as Masks, or expressions with input filters (eye slits of the masks).

In being alive, we enjoy a consciousness with continuous sensory input including memory recall, which is a kind of input to the moment or the stream of consciousness.

What I have tried to indicate is that the input from all senses and memory converges as energy patterns on the cortex of the brain (like raindrops on the surface of a pond). At this point any energy from any sense is equivalent. I would like to refer to this energy pattern in the cortex as the Image of the Moment. In computers we could call it a memory image, which is a copy of the RAM. I don?t mind the analogy but this image is just the energy and it is not yet recorded, it is fleeting, and it is not indexed like RAM memory. Cortex image is direct mapping to the body, one pixel of brain surface for each pixel of sensory tissue anywhere.

Anyway as each moment arises and passes new images filter into the Cortex in a vibratory mode ? each signal is a series of diminishing pulses. So the Cortex of the brain has a changing Image of the Moment with the most intense part being the most recent input and the least intense part being the end of fading signals from up to around 3 seconds ago. The aggregate of this electrical activity (like an interference pattern from raindrops on the surface of a pond) is a resulting overlay of all the recent incoming Image of the Moment material.

Today I began to think of the most recent 3 seconds of that stream of consciousness in a new way. I now call it the Smear, or the Smear of consciousness. A kind of living electrical wave issue that holds a rolling layered gestalt (Changing Image of the Moment Smear). Stuff keeps arising and fading away and it smears along at the head of what might be called the stream of consciousness, the rest of which is more like the drying mucous path of a snail than a stream.

What I have ventured to say in many earlier posts is that the effect of entheogen is to prolong the fadeout of the Image of the Moment, such that the Smear becomes a stacking up of Moments and the lightly smeared image becomes much more heavily overlaid. When the Smear is extended one notices trails ? color enrichment ? thought enrichment ? fractal patterns and memory replay. Once can see more than one memory at once including people seen long ago at a distance and little houses right mixed up with live vision of one?s legs on the couch ? so easy to construe elves etc.

An extended smear challenges time itself and what we are accustomed to being simultaneous may indeed be taking place over 20 seconds to a minute in a different but wonderful order altogether.

Just thought I would share my morning smear with you all.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3516734 - 12/18/04 11:36 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Wonderful post. Thanks man. Will be bookmarked  :thumbup:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3517118 - 12/18/04 02:35 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

i always sense that your posts have some really deep and awesome meaning that im missing but i never manage to comprehend you at all, probably because you have so much more knowledge in neuroscience and stuff.

but im a very linguistically skilled person so its unusual for something to go 'over my head' nevertheless this certainly did


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3517338 - 12/18/04 04:25 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

anything in particular you might like me to try to re-explain.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3517485 - 12/18/04 05:25 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

hmm after a few re readings i almost understand. your suggesting that a possible explanations for the complex and 'crowded' gestalt images (a gestalt is like , a sensory collage that makes up a single perceptual scene or instant right?) is that the ethneogen causes those different gestalts to stack up in one perceptual moment?

interesting idea except then wouldnt you expect if you were to turn your head from say your computer to your bookshelf, to see the computer superimposed over the bookshelf?

cuz thats not how it goes for me anyways.

plus some of the hallucinations are just so bizarre and unpredictable, like seeing aliens smoking pipes on a black surface...

for me the most effective way of understanding the hallucinations is as psychedelic or 'mind manifesting' as in they take things from your mind and present them as external sensory stimuli.

this would explain why if i have filled my mind with horrible crap from horror movies before a trip i tend to 'see' images of zombie faces and flesh ripping etc...

good thinking tho man

the burden of understanding rests entirely on me

have i given you 5 shrooms yet btw?

:stoned:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3517584 - 12/18/04 06:04 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Is this a smear campaign?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Seriously, your post is incredible but I wish I understood it better. Perhaps my lack of entheogens is not helping? Does being an artist help you so see these things more than someone on entheogens who is not an artist?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3518249 - 12/18/04 10:14 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I do see the shelf and the computer at thesame time when I turn my head when I have had a good hit of salvia.
on less of a hit, closed eyed after images are very interesting but the smeared moment is still fairly short, one needs a good hit to have a pronounced effect.
with a big hit open eyed, i look around and the world hangs around as if I am having insect vision. I can even see behind objects that I have recently peeked at. and body image becomes one of elasticity stretched well beyond its usual structure.

thanks for trying to see what I am talking about, I know it is very hard to take up this picture I have been working on it a long time.
there is more, the part that describes fixation of memory but it needs a pretty good foundation on the above.


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3518337 - 12/18/04 10:41 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think this is very interesting, and very likely accurate.

Clearly, with sight there is a stacking. I think that there are a series of images that we see, with the most recent appearing the strongest and older ones fading rapidly. If I jerk my eyes while looking at my computer screen, I can breifly see several edges to my computer screen - not a continuous blur. However, the oldest image I can see is normally no more than a fraction of a second old.

I can't tell so well with sounds or scent. I know with sound that there is a stacking, of sorts, or a breif memory - a chord can be heard in several sequential notes. I haven't found any evidence in my sensations to indicate a discrete nature to the sensation, though. And conciousness, the stream of thought and sensation combined -- I don't know. It sounds reasonable, though, that thoughts and sensation don't arise and fade instantly, but that there is some overlap.


On a side note, I recently recieved Salvia 10x, which I will be trying for the first time somtime in the near future.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3518353 - 12/18/04 10:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting. I was just watching the news and listening to music. Ive noticed that, not only does most music go in a 3/4 or 4/4 beat, but the news-people and most people speak in about 3 or 4 second intervals. I know this could just be due to breathing rates or whatever but im felling like our brains are sort of refreshing in 3 or 4 second intervals. Its like a flow in time that allows us all to interact and communicate on a common level.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3518362 - 12/18/04 10:55 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

what do you think the significance of that is? being able to linger on many frames at one time.

i could see how it would be easier to make connections between the frames since you dont have to recall a frame from memory and push the other frame out of conciousness. you could have many more frames available to the concoiusness at a given moment. kinda of like that screen in minority report.

the frames coming in would always be at the same level or speed, yet the frames being faded out of conciousness are subject to changes in speed. so is this what gives us our sense of time, the speed at which mental frames are cleared out of the conciousness.

so ethneogens create a kind of V shaped bottleneck between the intake and output in frames of conciousness?


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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3518367 - 12/18/04 10:57 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

NES: Works on channels 3 & 4. Coincidence?

lolzzz...:smirk:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: phi1618]
    #3519843 - 12/19/04 11:06 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

phi1618 said:
...I can breifly see several edges to my computer screen - not a continuous blur. However, the oldest image I can see is normally no more than a fraction of a second old.

... It sounds reasonable, though, that thoughts and sensation don't arise and fade instantly, but that there is some overlap.

On a side note, I recently recieved Salvia 10x, which I will be trying for the first time somtime in the near future.




phil, congrats on the salvia
I am sure with that you will see and feel impressions long after they would have normally faded.

vision is one of the strangest things since we actually see just a few hundred colored dots and edges curves and progressions, our perception creates scenes which are more like memory data than primary visual data. More than we want to think, we are looking around in a virtual constuct of a consensual universe due to running our perception program. one or 2 tokes of salvia and you will peel that back and begin to see also the colors, edges, curves and progressions as well, and when those are stacked you will get some delicious fractal treats.

Quote:

Catalysis said:
...I know this could just be due to breathing rates or whatever but im felling like our brains are sort of refreshing in 3 or 4 second intervals. Its like a flow in time that allows us all to interact and communicate on a common level.



great observation:
the breathing cycle and pace of inhallation exhallation is a major metric in our life as well as personality, mask exchange, conversational exchange, etc.

Quote:

fresh313 said:
...what do you think the significance of that is? being able to linger on many frames at one time.

i could see how it would be easier to make connections between the frames since you dont have to recall a frame from memory and push the other frame out of conciousness. you could have many more frames available to the concoiusness at a given moment. kinda of like that screen in minority report.

the frames coming in would always be at the same level or speed, yet the frames being faded out of conciousness are subject to changes in speed. so is this what gives us our sense of time, the speed at which mental frames are cleared out of the conciousness.

so ethneogens create a kind of V shaped bottleneck between the intake and output in frames of conciousness?




you are quite close to seeing what I am seeing. great! (I get more of a compression of earth's crust into mountains than a V, but it is just analogy anyway)
a neat side effect to having more frames in suspension at once (aside from the loss of sense of time and reality) is that you can follow threads and connections within and accross frames that would have already faded much earlier.
this is critical if you are looking for lost objects,
or if you are seeking some meaning that remains below the surface until the stack of frames exposes the issue:

Such an issue may be very constant, and until the noise of normal reality blurrs to insignificance, the underlying issue can remain unnoticed even if it is huge.

Stacking the frames is like stacking celluloid film, the areas with movement can become a cloud or a solid color, and the more still things emerge as solid with strong outlining and halos; but when seen in a different way, each piece of suspended film becomes a whole dimension of nearly unmoving parts to be explored like a chance recollection from memory or the elves' garden.

So frame stacking becomes a Shamanic process, like boiling off reality to get to the residual core - new realtionships are exposed by the thicker stack. but also the intensity of the smear is in itself a kind of candied experiencing.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3520928 - 12/19/04 05:11 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I'm feeling like Moonshoe right now, i bet what you're saying is very profound and amazingly close to truth, but its also hard to imagine or conceive.

I feel like what you said is very concentrated in meaning. If you layed it out well enough for us to understand completely, I'm sure you'd be able to write a very good book, and I sure as hell would read it.

BTW, i've often had that feeling when i read your posts: very pertinent and interesting, but very hard to grasp.
...tis just an observation, i love you man


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: exclusive58]
    #3521008 - 12/19/04 05:35 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Right
not easy to casually slip onto this and get it right off
I made a few nasty sketches:





























Edited by redgreenvines (12/19/04 05:36 PM)


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OfflineOtto
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3521808 - 12/19/04 09:19 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Your saying that inputs(from the senses) in the form of waves hit part of the brain creating in essence a two dimensional interferance pattern. This is taken over a three second interval so you end up with a 3-d interference pattern (two dimensions plus time) that is stored in memory in a holographic manner. Psychedelics in essence elongate the three seconds to more time allowing senses and feelings to stack instead of being shifted off into memories (as would happen in 3 seconds in normal reality). I think as I am typing this I am understanding it better. I still don't quite understand holographics and how it applies to memory storage, but I get the basic idea of the thread. Our accessable "current" now is three seconds, but with psychedelics this get changed.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: Otto]
    #3522864 - 12/20/04 02:08 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

close
the 3 second thing is about the masks - the personality routines - really more related to the breathing phrasing of our nature.
the operation of creating memory and the involvement of interference patterns to record or fix images into memory that are more in the 1/4 second range.

they are much faster to rise and fall.
I would say that an ordinary citta is 1/4 second and it may include 2 or 3 sensory slices, but a full out mask is around 3 seconds, giving time for a routine to be played out - a full expression, several words of speech and gesture.
the psychedellics extend the duration of 1/4 second patterns to many times that duration enriching experiences and muddying up their clarity.

the holographic nature of memory fixation is as follows.
a) the whole engram pattern gets established in the cortex by excited neurons,
b) the constructive interference is detected and multiaxxoned detectors fire down into the basal ganglia introducing sub threashold excitations to those mid brain structures,
c) and all the excited midbrain neurons receiving the subthreashold pulses grow new receptivity enhancers -
d) later when the interference points are re-excited (by a simmilar image), even if the basal ganglia receptor cell is not active, it responds because of the new growth (which is the fixation).
e) in this way simmilarity of engrams causes recal of older memory image patterns. (recognition)
f) what we are accustomed to calling simmilarity has a slightly different meaning here.

there are 2 things going on time wise:

one at the 1/4 second range which is the holographic engram level
and one at the 3 second range which is the complex personality mask.
the main one is the faster one.
that is the one to watch initially on entheogen. it is continuous.

you will also see the 3 second one change over especially if you look for it. it is the area of ego activity.


the reason why the holographic term is applied is that the engrams are stored throughout the cortex and basal ganglia (midbrain structures like thalamus), as a hologram is stored throughout the photographic emulsion surface. if you remove some of the hologram you still get the whole image but it gets fuzzier. same if you remove some brain. the rest of the holographic analogy is not material, except for the involvement of interference. In brain the interference and the image are inseparable, not so in a holograph. In brain new connections are always being made, not so in a holograph. In brain unvisited connections actually die after a long while and active areas grow.

there is a lot more to it. but at this point we have covered a bit of each aspect of conscious experiencing and memory creation and recall, and the entheogen effect on the smear of consciousness or frame stacking.

some other related areas of interest include the cerebellum and how it is an organ of timing and rythm in the same way as the eye is an organ of vision and the ear is an organ of hearing. Normally it is considered part of the brain, and rightly so by proximity and how tightly interval is used in the masks and in perception routines. Also of interest is the medulla oblongata and especially the reticular formation and how it is involved in sleep and shutting down the flow of information from the body so we can sleep.


Edited by redgreenvines (12/20/04 02:10 AM)


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3522951 - 12/20/04 02:30 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Well, very very interesting learning experience here.... A bit hard to clearly see the entire concept 100%, but I'm sure if I studied it in a textbook format or something, it would all click a lot quicker.

Very insightful.



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Offlineel_duderino
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3526623 - 12/21/04 05:34 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

If you ever publish a book, or organise all your research into a website, be sure to let us know.

All you're posts are a great read though, you're frame stacking theories resonate strongly with my experiences and it all appears to make sense, i'm a bit iffy on the neurological aspect of it, it's always fascinated me but i doubt i'll ever do any real further study into it (apart from the internet and any books you could suggest for us laymen to start off with).

Keep it up!


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: el_duderino]
    #3526640 - 12/21/04 05:59 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

isnt it true that a healthy human breathes inhale and exhale about 15a ,iminute? and also true that for evrybreath two thoughts of anything can be manifest ? 1 inhale 2 exhale??which is why meditating envolves slowed breathing. say if you just got shot at BANG!!!!!! ur heart beats hella and you will need to catch ur breath. during the next 15 secs how many thoughts would one have? a shit load right? like am i hit, who was that, wher did they come.., why me? wherd they go? etc. that was 6 thoughts ....3 breaths 12 seconds ....shit you'd be breathing faster than that right? so if say you were hella relaxed all chill shit forever goes by and your thoughts are so few yah dont even notice ur thinking. which also allows more time spent on one thought. ........i hypothesize that all the salvia smoke somehow interferes whith ur motor skills and thus slows ur brain(not mind) down to a big lebowski pace which allows you more time to procces everything you see/hear/etc. it stays in the mind for a longer period of time because instead of a normal 15 breathe per min action your now on like a 10, 8, 5? breathes per min situation.???!!? yah think? i dunno ive not yet met Salvia the Devine, so i dont have anything useful to add to the ppost sorry.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: More Thoughts on the Stack. [Re: uriahchase]
    #3526657 - 12/21/04 06:27 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

el_duderino : {just read evrything equally but mostly pay attention to what your senses are saying in context that change is the only constant}

uriachase: {there is a huge variance of breath, but oddly a huge simmilarity - I would only pin the major masks to it (ego expressions or tasks) actually I think many many partial thoughts are constantly arizing and collapsing under the movement of the mind like the fingers on the waves of the japanese paiting:



http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/hokusai/great-wave.jpg
}


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