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InvisibleSclorch
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The Desire for Power & Control
    #3511568 - 12/17/04 01:08 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Just some questions.

1. Where does it come from?
2. Are the power-hungry necessarily conscious of their appetite for control?
3. How can the oppressed conquer the powers-that-be without taking their place?

This social phenomenon happens in places where you'd least expect it. It can be extremely subtle or ridiculously obvious... and sometimes both, depending on your perspective.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: Sclorch]
    #3511600 - 12/17/04 01:16 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

1)Completly psychosexual. The whole "you my bitch" prison scene lightly applied to a planet of interesting primates.It is mimicked in nature over and again.You do not suggest we are above nature?
2)they are conscious of their desire possibly not its origin

3)
Quote:

How can the oppressed conquer the powers-that-be without taking their place?



How about by not "conquering" but rather rendering them obsolete?
A little self determination goes a long way.
WR


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: Sclorch]
    #3512024 - 12/17/04 02:41 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

1. Egoic desire and/or fear - in the deepest rooted sense.
2. If they were truly conscious, spiritually speaking, they wouldn't 'choose' such negativity.
3. Interesting question...I'll have to get back to you on this one.



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OfflinePedM
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3512102 - 12/17/04 03:15 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

>> 1. Where does it come from?

On Control: I would say the wish to be secure. There is an idea pervasive in our culture which suggests that we can be free from insecurity by controlling every aspect of our environment. Some people carry this to an extreme and become "control-freaks."

On Power: Again, the wish to be secure. Moreover, however, there is the feeling of satisfaction that comes from having a high degree of responsibility, or a great number of people accountable to you. Most people believe that their self-importance can make them happy, and some choose to pursue that self-importance to an extreme.


>> 2. Are the power-hungry necessarily conscious of their appetite for control?

Some people believe that everybody wants to make it to the top. Some people believe that those who aren't interested in the quest for dominance are crazy, or somehow out of sync with the natural order of things. People who perceive the quest for dominance and control to be a necessary and primary facet of the natural order of things are probably unaware of any unique appetite within themselves.


>> 3. How can the oppressed conquer the powers-that-be without taking their place?

By taking the focus off of their own benefit and placing it on the benefit of others, including their oppressors.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: Sclorch]
    #3512148 - 12/17/04 03:45 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Good responses.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: Sclorch]
    #3512541 - 12/17/04 09:13 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Thanx Prof, now for extra credit.
1)Is the urge to power a learned or instinctive (genetic) behavior?

2)If genetic it must have evolved for survival. What survival purpose does it fullfil?

3)If it is our genetic inheritance to be "pack-like" and have an alpha leader why do we not accept it as natural?

What do YOU think on this Sclorch?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: Sclorch]
    #3513613 - 12/17/04 02:41 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

1. Where does it come from?

It comes from the social and dominance hierarchy found in many animals, including man. With wild animals, having such a structure has numerous advantages to the species. Gene pool improvement, hunting success, protection, socialization, and the reduction in physically harmful fights are examples of benefits a domininance hierarchy provide. In cave men, the same benefits were there. In modern man, the urges remain and the benefits may or may not be there depending on the situation and whether the "power and control" is handled appropriately or has become corrupted.

2. Are the power hungry necessarily conscious of their appetite for power and control?

Assuming you are talking about humans, no. Many people who are out of control and feeling powerless have tremendous appetite for power and control, yet are not conscious of that appetite. Their resulting behavior can become violent and criminal, as displays of power and control pent up can lead to explosive resolutions. Other people may already be acting out of their appetite for power and control, but don't consider their behavior to be based on those issues. "Well my Daddy always beat my Momma, so that makes it OK for me to beat my wife".

3. How can the oppressed conquer the powers-that-be without taking their place?

The oppressed will not conquer the powers-that-be. The oppressed can take back the power and control they have given to the oppressor and thereby become unoppressed. The choice is of the oppressed, not the oppressor. This is true even in dire situations such as in concentration camps.

As for taking their place, hopefully people who have been oppressed will not continue in the cycle of oppression/abuse. But, unfortunately many times such behavior repeats itself even over generations.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: whiterasta]
    #3513726 - 12/17/04 03:13 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
Thanx Prof, now for extra credit.
1)Is the urge to power a learned or instinctive (genetic) behavior?



I think it's a combination of both. But humans have the ability to refine it.

Quote:

2)If genetic it must have evolved for survival. What survival purpose does it fullfil?



Well, it obviously has genetic roots. Before intraspecies communication became more advanced, playing Hawk was the most effective survival technique.

Quote:

3)If it is our genetic inheritance to be "pack-like" and have an alpha leader why do we not accept it as natural?



Oh, I accept it as natural. I just don't like it. And I think that human consciousness has developed enough to be able to shed this instinctual trait for the greater good.

no power struggle = no war


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: whiterasta]
    #3514246 - 12/17/04 05:22 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

How about by not "conquering" but rather rendering them obsolete?
A little self determination goes a long way.




We may be in full agreement here Sclorch. I too accept the reality of hierarchy but do not recognize it's continued necessity. But then my thinking is centered on a much less populated society for this to be ever actualized.Rats in the cage will not evolve to peace and individual determination they will behave as rats in a cage.So here we are ,eh?
WR


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: whiterasta]
    #3519553 - 12/19/04 05:10 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

What we need is a transcended culture.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: whiterasta]
    #3519735 - 12/19/04 09:07 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"3)If it is our genetic inheritance to be "pack-like" and have an alpha leader why do we not accept it as natural?"

Just diving in real quick here

Several, many, reasons.. I can think of a few.

First, if we're not the leader, it may be that we want to be the leader. Obviously for those who aren't leader, you could accept it.. or you could fight against it, since you are not it.. until you are it, and then you've got nothing left to fight against.
or, it could be that we're just a chaotic clusterfuck of a species, either genetically or socially predeposed to rage against authority. I would tend to lean towards the latter, actually.
Which is pretty interesting, actually -- if we were genetically predeposed to form a heirarchy in our social structure, but we are socially predeposed to reject authority, that leaves me way too spacey to further explore that avenue of thought at 9:05 in the AM, seeing as how i've been awake 22 hours now and a good bit of that time was spent driving. Lame. Later folks.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: Sclorch]
    #3520817 - 12/19/04 04:40 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Manipura - Manipulation. Same Indo-European root for the Motive-Type that characterizes a whole 'plane of being' in a metaphysical sense, or a discrete form of human motivation taken psychologically (particularly described by Alfred Adler). Chakra psychology is most useful for describing the phenomenology of different types of human motivation that are 'filtered' out at each center. John Woodruff's 'The Serpent Power' gives classic Hindu Tantric desriptions of the Manipura Chakra. Its triangle has three Swastikas around it and anyone who enters its realm is able to 'destroy the world with fire [Ram, Aries] and rebuild it in one's own image.' Holocaust. The Nazi esoteric source.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: The Desire for Power & Control [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3574224 - 01/03/05 05:31 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

control is so funny.


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