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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Concealed carry permit.
    #3511431 - 12/17/04 12:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I have been thinking about whether or not to renew my concealed carry permit. I don't think I want to do it because I am guaranteed the right to carry a firearm by the constitution and if I have to pay $50 to get a permit to do it I am admitting it is not a right. Should I renew it? The very idea of having a permit to exercise a right is infuriating.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: z@z.com]
    #3511467 - 12/17/04 12:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i hear you. just get the permit.

PA good in GA, GA good in PA.  :smile:


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: ]
    #3511477 - 12/17/04 12:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So you think I should just give in? Not to mention that in the last 3 years of carrying a gun I have not once been challenged on it.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: z@z.com]
    #3511543 - 12/17/04 01:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

if god forbid you ever have to use it, you will be fucked if you don't have a permit. get the permit. if you lived in a "may issue" state, i'd say fuck it... carry if you want whether you're permitted to or not, but you don't. you may as well get the permit. it's a practical matter....

what do you carry?

i'm thinking about getting a .38 when i move out of this town... 1911's are nice though.....


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: ]
    #3511640 - 12/17/04 01:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I carry a USP compact in .40 S&W most of the time, but sometimes I carry a KEL-TEC P-3AT. The USP is a superior gun, but the KEL-TEC is small enough to carry comfortably no matter what you are wearing. I'm a pretty big guy though so I can conceal just about any handgun.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Edited by z@z.com (12/17/04 01:34 AM)


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Registered: 10/20/04
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: ]
    #3511644 - 12/17/04 01:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Are you sure this is about the 2nd amendment and not just dropping $50? If your caught without a permit what are the consequences? I would say fuck the permit unless yuo really carry that badboy around all the time.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3511663 - 12/17/04 01:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:
Are you sure this is about the 2nd amendment and not just dropping $50?



It is about my beliefs. I have enough money to get the permit, but I don't think I need to according to the constitution. And yes I do carry a gun most of the time (sometimes I leave it in the car though).


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAhronZombi
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Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Loc: NY
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: z@z.com]
    #3511709 - 12/17/04 01:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

real niggas conseal and carry w/o permits then shoot anyone who asks funny questions about it


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3512170 - 12/17/04 03:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It is about my beliefs. I have enough money to get the permit, but I don't think I need to according to the constitution. And yes I do carry a gun most of the time (sometimes I leave it in the car though).





Then it should be simple. Don't buy one. What kind of fines do you face if you were caught without a permit? Maybe you'll get caught without a permit and take it to the supreme court. That way ya got 50 more big ones, are protesting your rights, and if you do get caught could actually do something for the cause. I agree with you though, if the constitution says you have the right to own a firearm than you have the right to it all the time, concealed or not. Seems logical to me.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3514068 - 12/17/04 04:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

AhronZombi said:
real niggas conseal and carry w/o permits then shoot anyone who asks funny questions about it




"Real niggaz" have an average life span of about 25 years. They do manage to reproduce, though. Oh well, you can't have everything.


--------------------


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: z@z.com]
    #3514580 - 12/17/04 07:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
And yes I do carry a gun most of the time (sometimes I leave it in the car though).




Why? Other than it being your "right" to do so - for what reason do you have that gun? What about statistics citing that that gun is far more likely to shoot someone accidently than to protect you from a crime? What about the fact that while that gun might protect you from a single robber, as long as there is poverty, drug abuse, and lack of education - there are going to be many more robberies. Should we all arm ourselves to the teeth and prepare to go out in a hail of bullets? Or would that time/money be better spent figuring out the root causes of crime so the actual problem can be dealt with, not just the symptoms? I certainly don't believe that the government should have the right to tell you what you can or cannot have - and I agree that "guns don't kill people - people kill people." But it's a hell of a lot easier when you've got a gun. :shrug:


--------------------




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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: Krishna]
    #3514959 - 12/17/04 09:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
Why? Other than it being your "right" to do so - for what reason do you have that gun?




I carry a gun to defend my life or the life of another, but only as a last resort.
Quote:


What about statistics citing that that gun is far more likely to shoot someone accidently than to protect you from a crime?




I have heard that quote many times, but I have never seen it backed up.
Quote:

What about the fact that while that gun might protect you from a single robber, as long as there is poverty, drug abuse, and lack of education - there are going to be many more robberies.




All of those things will always exist as will robbers. In addition to that I do not carry a gun to stop robberies. If someone puts a gun in my face I will give them my money. I carry a gun to protect life not property.
Quote:

Should we all arm ourselves to the teeth and prepare to go out in a hail of bullets? Or would that time/money be better spent figuring out the root causes of crime so the actual problem can be dealt with, not just the symptoms?




When you get sick do you ignore the symptoms? We should treat the root of the problem, but that doesn't mean we ignore the symptoms.
Quote:

I certainly don't believe that the government should have the right to tell you what you can or cannot have - and I agree that "guns don't kill people - people kill people." But it's a hell of a lot easier when you've got a gun. :shrug:



It's pretty easy with a knife or a baseball bat or a car or a brick or some poison or...


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinecb9fl
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Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: z@z.com]
    #3514983 - 12/17/04 09:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm going to ask this in every thread about gun control whether that control be mandated or not.

Do you (whoever wants to answer) believe that increased gun control reduced crime? If you do please explain the entire country of Australia as it pertains to gun control.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: z@z.com]
    #3515216 - 12/17/04 11:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
Quote:

Krishna said:
What about statistics citing that that gun is far more likely to shoot someone accidently than to protect you from a crime?




I have heard that quote many times, but I have never seen it backed up.





This article published in the Journal of Trauma in 1998 claims that their research indicates a "a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a criminal, unintentional, or suicide-related shooting than to be used in a self-defense shooting." Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home (unfortunately, I can't find a full-text copy of the study online - this is the MedLine abstract of the article, and here is a website that cites the study)

Edit - I thought I'd add a few more sources.

Weapon Involvement in Home Invasion Crimes from the Journal of the American Medical Association

Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home from the New England Journal of Medicine

Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership from the New England Journal of Medicine

Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries from the CDC's website

Quote:

All of those things will always exist as will robbers.




I disagree - I believe that it is the economic structure of our society that leads to poverty - and poverty that leads to the overwhelming majority of crimes. If the economic structure was changed, I believe poverty could be eliminated, and thus almost all crime (except, of course, in the cases of crimes committed by people with serious mental-health issues)

Quote:

It's pretty easy with a knife or a baseball bat or a car or a brick or some poison or...




Point taken. However, a knife is also used in cooking, a bat in baseball, a car in driving, a brick in construction, and poison as medicine (in some cases, with some poisions). A gun, however, is only used to kill (or injure severely).


--------------------




Edited by Krishna (12/17/04 11:34 PM)


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: Krishna]
    #3515265 - 12/17/04 11:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If the economic structure was changed, I believe poverty could be eliminated




Do you realize that their are very lazy people in this world? I met a man tonight that had enough intelligence and knowledge to get himself a job but instead he relied on a non-government funded charity to provide for him.

Quote:

A gun, however, is only used to kill (or injure severely).




Many people use guns for sport. I know a couple of people that own guns simply for target practise.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: cb9fl]
    #3515286 - 12/17/04 11:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Quote:

If the economic structure was changed, I believe poverty could be eliminated




Do you realize that their are very lazy people in this world? I met a man tonight that had enough intelligence and knowledge to get himself a job but instead he relied on a non-government funded charity to provide for him.





Again, I believe it is the structure of our society that creates this phenomenon. I think that the overwhelming majority of people having rote tasks that involve little or no self-management or economic/social control over their work-place and labour patterns results in a system of alienated workers. This could be solved, I believe, by implementation of balanced job-complexes, which would empower all workers, and share the rote, but necessary, tasks needed to continue production.

Quote:


Quote:

A gun, however, is only used to kill (or injure severely).




Many people use guns for sport. I know a couple of people that own guns simply for target practise.




Fine by me. Why do they need to carry them everywhere they go, then? Or leave them loaded and unlocked in their homes? I guess it also begs the larger question - why are they increasing their ability to fire a gun well if they don't plan on using it? - but that's another point...


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: Krishna]
    #3515299 - 12/17/04 11:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Do you believe in gun control as a social matter or legal matter?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: cb9fl]
    #3515370 - 12/18/04 12:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Do you believe in gun control as a social matter or legal matter?




not really as either. actually, i don't believe in gun "control" per se - i don't believe that the State should have any right to tell anybody what they can or cannot do (as long as it isn't directly hurting another person). however, i find peoples desire to own guns to be a representation of a social-illness. why do we need guns? to protect our life and property, or to take others life and property, or just because its fun to blow shit up. the third one... well, i can't completely discount that - however, I agree with Nietzsche's analysis that the "joy of destruction" is a result of "sickness of the instincts" (i'm going to sleep soon, and can't explain that right now - but read A Genealogy of Morality by Nietzsche for his explanation). the first two - well if somebody wants to take anothers life or property, i think a very important question to ask is "why?" and i believe that the answer lies (in most cases - although i am sure their are exceptions, such as mental-illness) in a social-structure that inherently breeds greed, negative-competition, and a lack of solidarity. i believe "banning" guns will work just as well as "banning" drugs has - ie not at all. unless we deal with the social issues that cause people to desire to murder or rob, they will find ways to get guns. if we melt all the guns on the earth, they will use knives. if we melt those, they will learn kung-fu.

now that being said - i do believe that the overwhelming support the arms-industry gets from nearly every government in the world is (no pun intended) shooting itself in the foot.

but, to go back to your question - i don't believe in gun "control" - but i do believe that solidarity and peaceful co-existence would be a better situation for man than exclusivity, negative competition ( big difference between this and other forms of competition - simplest example is two runners racing each other. if they are friends, then one of them inching ahead will cause the other to try even harder - not to "show up" his friend, but just because their intensity drives each other to new heights. negative competition would be one of the runners tripping the other, and then walking to the finish line, where he wins by default), and constant violence/fear of violence. when man reaches such a situation, i believe gun "control" will be a moot point. that being said, i personally believe that gun ownership is absolutely absurd. :shrug:


--------------------




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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: Krishna]
    #3515430 - 12/18/04 12:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Creation requires destruction.

It sounds from your post that you believe in extreme pacifism. To the point that in a perfect society their would be no physical aggression against another. If you believe that humans are capable of that then why is their physical aggression in animals?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Concealed carry permit. [Re: cb9fl]
    #3515570 - 12/18/04 12:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Creation requires destruction.





I couldn't agree with you more. To deny that would be to deny the full-circle nature of existence. However, I believe there is a fundamental difference between natural cycles of birth/death, growth/recession, creation/destruction - and unsustainable creation that inherently leads to irreconciable destruction. And I know that's a big claim to make - but like I said, I need to get bed (gotta work tomorrow) - but I'll come back to this thread tomorrow afternoon and elaborate on what I mean.

Quote:


It sounds from your post that you believe in extreme pacifism. To the point that in a perfect society their would be no physical aggression against another. If you believe that humans are capable of that then why is their physical aggression in animals?




Firstly, there is a difference between physical "aggression" in the animal/plant kingdoms and physical aggression as we seen in most human societies today. In in the same vein as my earlier statement - one represents a natural process of creation leading to destruction leading to more creation - and the other represents an exponential, unsustainable "mutation" of these natural patterns. Certainly human beings are "physical" creatures - we have natural energies that must be expended. And certainly no society could ever exist that did not have conflict. However, our current societal structures lead to, in my opinion, a mutation of natural methods of energy expenditure and conflict management. From the same work of Nietzsche that I cited earlier, there is a very poignant quotation - "What beastiality of mind man creates when he is prevented, even a little, from being a beast in deed." When we have an emergence in human society of vast disempowerment and alienation of an overwhelming majority - when the vast majority of people do not have the right to self-management, empowering, equalized job-complexes, etc - then you create an entire class who, when they find themselves in any position of power or authority, literally explode with all the pent-up emotion and energy they have stored inside of themselves. Take, for example, the horrible acts of violence committed by those loyal to the Chechen cause. If these people were empowered in their lives - if they were allowed self-management and such, do you believe they would still act in the way they do? And certainly, there is the problem that to suddenly give them this power would result in their oppression of their prior oppressers (for example, look what happened in Sri Lanka after the oppresing minority was overthrown by the majority. oppression and violence did not stop, it just switched sides).

I don't mean to sound simplistic in my approach to these issues - they are far from simple to resolve. However, I do believe that to inherently assume that man is a "violent, wild beast in need of taming and restraint" not only demeans the nature of man, it demeans the nature of beast.

Alright, I'll definitely be back tomorrow to expound on this more... thanks for the dialogue - and I hope there will be plenty more where this came from! :rasta:


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