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Offlineunlucky380
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The Truth
    #350677 - 06/28/01 07:00 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

It angers me when people put down the cubensis species. The truth is that out of the hundreds of hallucinogenic mushrooms species, cubensis is more potent than 95% of them. The more potent kinds of mushrooms you can only count on both hands, and even I prefer cubs over some of the "significantly more potent psilocybes" such as Liberty Caps and Psilocybe beaocytis, so I get really angry when someone says that cubensis is a "weak" mushroom. Look up all the species (over 400 identified ones I believe) and you'll find that cubensis is more potent than almost all them. After they have 1% psilocybin and more psilocin than any other species, even azurescens, at .60% while azurescens contain .35%, and psilocin is some 10 times more potent than psiloybin, altough most of it is extreted out of the body and is much less stable than psilocybin. 1% psilocybin is an extremely high concentration, and the "significantly more potent psilocybes" only contain about .5%-.6% more than that. So please dont be ignorant and put down psilocybe cubensis, it will only show how stupid you are.

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #350689 - 06/28/01 07:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> and psilocin is some 10 times more potent than psiloybin
LOL, where did you hear that?

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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #350704 - 06/28/01 07:40 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

if you want the truth, you should do your research first..
who said that cubs are weak? and in relation to what?
when compared with pan trop/cyan or azurescens they are weaker in most educated opinions..
where did you get your numbers?.. they are illogical.. and where did you get psilocin is 10x as potent.. its just dephosphorylated.. its more potent, but it also breaks down faster... and its NOT 10x as potent..
do your research.. before you get angry..




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Offlineunlucky380
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #350788 - 06/28/01 09:26 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

yes it is 10 times more potent than psilocybin, and if you aren't read enough and didnt get my point, psilocybin is 90% transfered into psilocin, and studies show that psilocin is 10 times more active than psilocybin itself. While your trippin', you arent tripping on psilocybin, your tripping on psilocin. Also: of course pans/azurescens and about eight more species are more potent than cub's, but you missed my point. There are hundreds of identified mushrooms containing psilocybin, and cubs are one of the most active species. Even Dr. Hoffman said that. Here is a list of the more potent species:

1.Psilocybe Azurescens
2.Psilocybe Cyanscens
3.Psilocybe Beocystis
4.Psilocybe Semilanceata
5.Psilocybe Tampensis
6.Psilocybe Mexicana (altough you need about 30 fresh medium sized shrooms to trip at all)
7.Pan Cyan's
8.Pan Tropicalis
9.Pan Cambodias
10.Psilocybe Bohemica
and thats about it! (out of about 400 species containing hallucinogenic substances)

Cubensis is an extremely potent mushroom, and yes, I've heard people over and over again saying that either cubensis is a "mediocre" or "weak" mushroom, and they have no idea what they are talking about. So dont insult me if you dont read carefully what I said. Here is what you have mistaken:

Psilocin IS ten times more active than psilocybin (Taking in account that psilocybin is 90% transfered in the body into psilocin, and studies show that comparing the activity of both substances, that psilocin is ten times more active. So when you trip, if you think its the psilocybin that your tripping on, your wrong, and go back to the basics. If psilocybin was the substance you were tripping on, and psilocybin never transfered into psilocin, none of the "most Potent" would even have a noticable effect, and your trip would be ten times weaker.)

2. You missed that I said there are more potent species, but there are hundreds of species and cubs are more potent than 95%. Im not saying that cubs are more potent than azures or pan cyans, but that cubs are extremely potent and I always either hear or am told that cubs are "weak" or "mediocre" mushrooms. They are not. They are extremely potent compared to all the species identified.

So before you insult and laugh at me, read what I said carefully and dont be so ignorant as to not read and study about this stuff and turn around to someone who has been studying this for years, and mock them without any knowledge about this subject. Dont be stupid, because Im the one whos laughing.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #350833 - 06/28/01 11:00 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> and studies show that comparing the activity of both >substances, that psilocin is ten times more active.
Could you please point me to the studies that show this ?

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OfflineNagual
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #350839 - 06/28/01 11:13 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Ive noticed that too, like people
alluding that the psi cubensis shroom isnt
a potent hallucinogen; I guess ill have
my own experience with it soon enough,
but i wasnt sure for a while the way
people talk about them sometimes
whether the 'cubes' could make you
really *~~TRIP~~* or not.


o0O)}>I seem to be a verb<{(O0o
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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #350847 - 06/28/01 11:20 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

?Psilocybin is among the least toxic of psychoactive substances. Schultes and Hofmann, testing psilocybin in mice, found it to be 2.5 times less toxic than mescaline, while having about 50 times the potency. Psilocin is stronger than psilocybin by about 1.4 times, the same ratio as their molecular weights.?



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OfflineNagual
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Re: The Truth [Re: Anno]
    #350852 - 06/28/01 11:26 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Unlucky is saying that Psilocin is 10x
more efficient, not 10x stronger..(?)

o0O)}>I seem to be a verb<{(O0o
....___^___
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........|.|Free
...__ /../..Spore
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--------------------
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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The Truth [Re: Nagual]
    #350854 - 06/28/01 11:31 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Could you please point me at where he says that? And if he had said that, where is the difference??

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Edited by Anno on 06/28/01 04:38 PM.



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OfflineNagual
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Re: The Truth [Re: Anno]
    #350864 - 06/28/01 11:59 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Sure..

psilocin is 10 times more active than psilocybin itself.

Im no chemistry wiz so im not exactly clear on
what is meant by 'more active', but he didnt say stronger,
im just pointing out the distinction.. maybe that 'cin is
more compatable to our systems than 'cybin, hence
a more thorough (active) interaction between body
and chemical? i dunno..=>b

o0O)}>I seem to be a verb<{(O0o
....___^___
...(_______)
........|.|Free
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Edited by Nagual on 06/28/01 05:00 PM.



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OfflineShdwstr
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Re: The Truth [Re: Anno]
    #350866 - 06/29/01 12:02 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

If memory serves my rusty old brain, Psilocin IS 1.4 times stronger than Psilocybin, just like Anno said. I also recall that it's properties are destroyed in the drying process, so it is only present in fresh shrooms.

Luke, you are my Son... Come to the Darkside... where my FSR mycelium grows kickass !!


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OfflineNagual
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Re: The Truth [Re: Anno]
    #350867 - 06/29/01 12:05 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

This part too.

Psilocin IS ten times more active than psilocybin (Taking in account
that psilocybin is 90% transfered in the body into psilocin, and
studies show that comparing the activity of both substances, that
psilocin is ten times more active.

o0O)}>I seem to be a verb<{(O0o
....___^___
...(_______)
........|.|Free
...__ /../..Spore
...|__ / ......Ring


--------------------
.....___^___
....(_______)
........|...|Free
...__ /.../..Spore
...|___ / .....Ring


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Offlineunlucky380
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Re: The Truth [Re: Anno]
    #350943 - 06/29/01 03:10 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

The main purpose of my thread was to show that cubensis is much more potent than what people claim it to be. Facts are facts, cubensis is a very potent mushroom. I didnt mean it to become a thing about the differences between psilocybin and psilocin potencies, but if you want the studies that I found, fine I will very shortly.

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Offlineunlucky380
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #350952 - 06/29/01 03:23 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Psilocybin and its dephosphorylated relative psilocin are the active
substances in mushrooms such as Psilocybe cubensis, Panaeolus
subbalteatus, and Gymnopilus spectabilis. Most of these mushrooms
contain primarily psilocybin and only traces of psilocin, but the body
converts most of the psilocybin ingested to psilocin, which is about ten
times as psychoeffective. (namyco.org)

Albert Hoffman, LSD, my problem child:

Both psilocybin and psilocin -- a dephosphorylated version which is
some ten times as potent -- are found naturally in mushrooms, though
their ecological purpose is unknown. In the human body, they affect the
serotonergic systems in the brain, and show some cross-tolerance with
substances such as LSD.
? ? Onset of symptoms usually occurs within an hour of ingestion, and
effects typically last up to four to six hours. Effects are primarily
psychological and perceptual, including heightened color perception,
emotional effects such as religious ecstasy or anxiety, and sometimes
hallucinations or delusions.

There. Happy?

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #351180 - 06/29/01 09:27 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> which is about ten times as psychoeffective.
OK, let?s asume this is true.
What does this mean for the effective psychoactivity of psilocybin?
Nearly all psilocybin is converted to psilocin in the body and thus the psychoactivity would be the same the same(once in the body), except that the unused phosphate group that psilocybin has, splits off and thus makes it 71,5% as psycoactive per weight than psilocin.
If you take into account that only 90% of psilocybin are converted, then it is 64,3% as psycoactive per weight than psilocin.
So, psilocybin is weaker(never said something contrary), but to say that Quote:"psilocin is some 10 times more active than psilocybin" is a stupidity and a lie.

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Edited by Anno on 06/29/01 02:35 AM.



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Offlineunlucky380
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Re: The Truth [Re: Anno]
    #351540 - 06/30/01 12:21 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

no it is not a lie. None of the traces of psilocin naturally occuring in mushrooms has any effect, becuase it is excreted out of the body and is extremely unstable. However, the irony is that almost none of the psilocybin naturally occuring in mushrooms has any effect, because it turns INTO psilocin very rapidly and effeciently. The intoxication one recieves is not due to psilocybin, yet it is the reason that intoxication occurrs. None of the psilocin in mushrooms lasts in the body for long, because, like I said, it is extremely unstable. However, psilocybin is transferred into psilocin, causing the intoxication. Without psilocybin, intoxication would not occurr. But to say that it is a stupidity and a lie, is untrue, because psilocin IS ten times more potent than psilocybin. The remaining psilocybin that hasnt been exctreted has been shown to be ten times less psychoactive. If you think my statement that psilocin is ten times more psychoactive is about the psilocin naturally found in mushrooms, you are wrong. The psilocin in mushrooms is virtually meaningless because, once again, it is extremely unstable. What I meant by psilocin's ten times psychoactivity, is when psilocybin is transfered into the body, and once it is, the psilocin is already in the bloodstream, and is relatively safe there. That is why intoxication lasts four-six hours (depending on dosage obviously), and not being oxidated away by bodily "protectants" and having no intoxication at all. Psilocybin's mission is to turn into psilocin, and that is psilocybins only duty, since is ten times weaker than psilocin, and much more stable than psilocin. That is all Im saying. So please dont insult my intelligence.

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Edited by unlucky380 on 06/29/01 05:36 PM.



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Offlineunlucky380
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Re: The Truth [Re: Anno]
    #351545 - 06/30/01 12:31 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

If you want to argue with scientist master Albert Hoffman, one who has studied this longer than three of my lifetimes, (20 now) I wouldnt reccomend it, but if you think you know more than him, well, go try and make a drug ten times more potent than LSD and win a noble prize, but until then, do be so stupid as to argue someone of that stature.

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Offlineunlucky380
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Re: The Truth [Re: Anno]
    #351547 - 06/30/01 12:32 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

By the way this thread is going way off topic to the original thought, please bring it back to the original arguement about psilocybe cubensis, because this is getting rather tiresome and childish.

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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #351670 - 06/30/01 04:54 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Cubies have always treated me fine!

One thing to keep in mind is that some of these published measurements of relative potencies were made on wild fruits. . .the potency difference between wild cubies and cultivated ones can be extreme.

I only eat veils


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The Truth [Re: Suntzu]
    #351835 - 06/30/01 12:31 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> So please dont insult my intelligence.
If you are as intelligent as you claim, then read over my post again, and find out what I am really saying.
This topic is done for me.

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OfflineRxman
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Re: The Truth [Re: Nagual]
    #351927 - 06/30/01 07:58 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Well send me the samples to my lab and I will test them for you and tell ya which is stronger!



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OfflineNagual
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Re: The Truth [Re: Rxman]
    #352010 - 06/30/01 11:23 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Ha ha methinks ill be the 'test dummy' in my own
experiment, but thanks for the generous offer Rxman.;)
But im actually learning something. Psilocybin is kind
of a safety pod for Psilocin. Itd be great if new info wasnt
so dangeros for some people.. all the fervent fact chucking
replies have kinda confused this thread..
Psilocybin is found in fresh shrooms; psilocin is also found in shrooms
but in a much lower concentration, and it is quickly decomposed due
to its unstable nature. Psilocybin is -mostly- transformed
by the body into its less stable, more psychoACTIVE analog Psilocin.
Psilocin is admittedly 1.4 times stronger
than its precursor psilocybin, due to a bigger molecular mass, and
it is also found to be some 10 times more active in lab rats or whatever.
Talk AND listen.. yknow? 




o0O)}>I seem to be a verb<{(O0o
....___^___
...(_______)
........|.|Free
...__ /../..Spore
...|__ / ......Ring

Edited by Nagual on 06/30/01 04:28 PM.



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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #352031 - 07/01/01 12:36 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

This topic did sway off course, but some of your claims were not very well founded.. you have misread and misinterpreted..
you understand the basics of whats going on, but you fail to make the connetion between what your saying.. you say something correct, and make a leap to an incorrect conclusion:
most psilocin breaks down and is therefore not present after preservation methods have been enacted.
most of the effect is as a reasult of psilocybin which is converted into psilocin.
the additional phosphorous group is removed and replaced.and as a result: exactly what nearly everyone else is saying: compare molecular weights.. and efficiency of conversion... if you started with 100 mg of psilocybin, and all of it was dephosphorylated, you wuold end up with ~71mg of psilocin......so now your tripping on ~71mg of psilocin.. which is not all pissed out immidiately... else you would not trip..
your misreading the 10x more active..
regardless...

cub is by no means a weak species, and its near the top of the pack.. but it is _not the most potent.. and there are many others out there which are stronger..
if you have a problem with the potency.. EAT MORE..

unlucky380 why are you so arrogant that you think because you have read a few books or articles you know exactly what your talking about.. noone knows exactly how our brain works.. and to explain the capabilities of a mind is beyond the realm of current science..
have you taken biochem? or even college level intro chem? the assumptions you made would be easily countered had you..
were not insulting your intelligence, were trying to correct what we see as a mistake.. by reacting with bellicose aggretion you act the childish fool.. just relax, think about what we have said.. read a little more elsewhere .. tihkal has some info you might find usefull.. as do many other pure chem books.. try a neuro physiology/pharmachology book..

-----------------
I think I not know what I never knew before: the meaning of the old saying "A fool you can neither bend nor break." Pray heaven that i never have a wise fool for a friend! There is nothing more intractable --"My resolve is fixed"-- Why, so madmed say too; but the more firmly they believe in their delusions, the the more they stand in need of treatment.
- Epictetus



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If I made affirmation, I apologize.
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Anonymous

Re: The Truth [Re: DinoMyc]
    #352399 - 07/01/01 07:17 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I have never heard anybody say anythign about cubensis being a weak species. Where did that come from?

Happy Canada Day!

Take a trip to the Spore Lab @:
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Edited by CaptainMaxMushroom on 07/01/01 12:19 PM.



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Offlinealuminum_can
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Re: The Truth [Re: unlucky380]
    #352911 - 07/02/01 07:22 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

in a book by pual stamets it says that panaleous cyanescens is "the fourth most potent mushroom that god has put on this planet we call earth" were did you get youre table? pual stamets is a pretty smart guy and i think he knows what hes talking about. the perspective you have on people dis liking cubensis is because they are a weak mushroom. the truth is that they are!!! you have to take alot for a good dosage. even though they are high on the list they are still weak. thats all that people are dissing; that psilocybin cubensis a weak mushroom and i highly doubt that people are saying that its the weakest. most people probably havent experienced a trip with a weaker shroom. i think when you heard people saying that cubensis is a weak shroom i think you took it the wrong way. in my opinion psilocybin cubensis is a "drug" mushroom. it sells high, it is easy to grow/find and thats what cocky little pot heads that want to hallucinate know is around. where as homegrown azures or ps. cyan and pan trops/cyan are more of a "genius cultivators" shroom and is rarely sold. thus, the fact that they are more respected. you dont have to measure psilocybin and psilocin contents to find that out, you just need some logic.

hey, you got to be genuine thats the name of this game. if you're real, then you aint got nothing to worry about, but if youre synthetic then starting tomorrow you're balls come off!


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OfflineOpi
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Re: The Truth [Re: aluminum_can]
    #353457 - 07/12/01 10:48 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I was under the impression that it hadn't actually been proven that psilocybin isn't active. It does break down into psilocin, but I am pretty sure no one has yet proven that it isn't active until that point.

Opi



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Offlinetom
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Re: The Truth [Re: Opi]
    #353641 - 07/12/01 07:50 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Bla bla bla too much to read. But where did you get the information that psilocin from the mushroom is inactive? You say b/c it is so unstable and the body gets rid of it so quickly? Then why when psilocybin breaks down into psilocin does that make you trip??? Why do you trip off of psilocin from the psilocybin but not psilocin from the mushroom??? I think psilocybin is 2 psilocins and maybe a few other atoms. But in previous posts you said that psilocin is 10X more active but then why do you say it has no activity now? You make little sense. Cubes are potent enough. But........ one of my friends dads said that he would go out with his friends and fill up a guitar case with mushrooms and eat them all night and felt very little. Cubes aren't potent in respect to the more potent varities of mushrooms. Yes they are more potent than most mushrooms but not so potent in comparison to other varities.

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