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Invisiblespudamore
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Male
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 1,460
Loc: Australia
Not again
    #3506115 - 12/15/04 10:19 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

dowsing revisited
was just watching a program, a sapphire miner using dowsing so knows where to dig for his gems. it was in the outback flat, red, no possible indications to show where the gems possibly are.
he said.
i don't know how it works.
i don't know why it works.
all i know is that it works.
so if it works why does one need substantial proof to show it does and how it works?


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Not again [Re: spudamore]
    #3506291 - 12/15/04 10:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Then again, there have been tests done that show it doesn't work.

Were the tests wrong? Or has the evidence for it been misrepresented?

From http://skepdic.com/dowsing.html :

Most dowsers do not consider it important to doubt their dowsing powers or to wonder if they are self-deceived. They never consider doing a controlled scientific test of their powers. They think that the fact that they have been successful over the years at dowsing is proof enough. When dowsers are scientifically tested and fail, they generally react with genuine surprise. Typical is what happened when James Randi tested some dowsers using a protocol they all agreed upon. If they could locate water in underground pipes at an 80% success rate they would get $10,000 (now the prize is over $1,000,000). All the dowsers failed the test, though each claimed to be highly successful in finding water using a variety of non-scientific instruments, including a pendulum. Says Randi, "the sad fact is that dowsers are no better at finding water than anyone else. Drill a well almost anywhere in an area where water is geologically possible, and you will find it."


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Edited by Phluck (12/15/04 10:57 PM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Not again [Re: spudamore]
    #3506333 - 12/15/04 11:00 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

so if it works why does one need substantial proof to show it does and how it works?

Because we can often be deceived into believing something works, when it may not actually work any better than random chance. Unless it has been compared closely to randomly choosing a location, we have no way of knowing if the odds are the same.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblespudamore
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Posts: 1,460
Loc: Australia
Re: Not again [Re: Phluck]
    #3506724 - 12/16/04 12:29 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

the tests could be majorly flawed who knows. those tests still are not enough to debunk dowsing, because it has worked for people that haven't dowsed before don't know anything about geography and in a unfamiliar area and find what they want. if that was random chance please let me have it too.


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem


Edited by spudamore (12/16/04 12:43 AM)


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OfflineAreoZephin
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Registered: 12/11/04
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Re: Not again [Re: spudamore]
    #3506781 - 12/16/04 12:41 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Also disproving and approving that it works would lead to more better ways of finding it, faster and more efficiently. I think we can disprove everything, and prove everything, disprove, prove, disprove, prove, disprove etc.

Some examples...

My glass can hold water, I pour water in it to prove that there can be water poured into it.
Now it's full, and I pour water into it. I can't pour anymore water into it. I just disproved that I can't pour water into the glass. But I can prove it again if I empty the glass back out. Thus I have just made it more efficient by using it again by pouring over and over, I have increased the efficiency by proving and disproving it's purpose. Otherwise if I didn't disprove I could pour water into the glass, I would not be able to use it again by finding a new way to prove I could. However, a new problem arrises, the water in the glass is frozen now, and I must find a way to unfreeze it by proving I can pour water into it again. Ah! I new discovery, yet, pouring into the glass is still proven correct.


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The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: Not again [Re: Phluck]
    #3508163 - 12/16/04 12:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"Most dowsers do not consider it important to doubt their dowsing powers."

I agree. For a dowser to be successful, they must be confident, relaxed, and aware. They would consider it important NOT to doubt their dowsing powers because doubt will diminish the dowsing power.

It is similar to meditation. If you go into it thinking "this isn't going to work", or don't practice proper meditation techniques, you can sit there for 10 years and get very little benefit. Can you then say "meditation doesn't work?"

Recently I posted about an experience I had in this area. The water company meter reader came by when I was out in my yard. I asked him if he had heard of water witching. He said he had heard of it, but didn't believe anyone could find water with a forked stick that pointed down. Then, he told me that one of the workers at the water utility shop uses metal rods to locate underground pipes accurately so that the guys don't have to dig as much to find them. The meter reader saw no conflict in the coworkers finding pipes with metal rods and his lack of belief in water witching with a forked stick. He did not know what dowsing is, let alone that his coworker was dowsing. All he knew was that the guy with the metal rods found the pipe and saved them from having to dig as much dirt.

I asked my neighbor, a long time maintenance worker at the school district, if he had heard of water witching. Oh sure, he said. He told me that he uses welding rods to locate underground pipes and has seen other people do so as well.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Not again [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3508333 - 12/16/04 12:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
I asked my neighbor, a long time maintenance worker at the school district, if he had heard of water witching.  Oh sure, he said.  He told me that he uses welding rods to locate underground pipes and has seen other people do so as well.





I have seen this done and myself have found pipes underground many times useing coathangers or welding rods with the flux beat off  :thumbup:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Offlineoceansize
fuckin' right.

Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Not again [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3510225 - 12/16/04 08:02 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Somehow no dowser can manage to do it in front of Randi for a million........


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Not again [Re: oceansize]
    #3510309 - 12/16/04 08:20 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Who is Randi ? because if there is a million to be won. I will win it if I have to find a underground pipe Or sewer line, I have done this many times. Underground water would be hard to prove because water tables are huge. Besides myself I can bring 2 people who make a living dealing working with underground pipes, septic systems and sewers and use bent coat hangers to locate them. These guys rely on dowsing to find the location of all unknown pipes.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Offlineoceansize
fuckin' right.

Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 216
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Not again [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3510330 - 12/16/04 08:25 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

randi.org

I think there is an application right on the main site.


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Not again [Re: oceansize]
    #3510353 - 12/16/04 08:30 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Ok dude I am gonna check it out and if it comes down to winning any cash. I make sure you get a finders fee :laugh:


Edit........ Ok I have printed out the Application and will be mailing it out tommorow. It looks like this is gonna take a number of months to make a turn around but I will keep you informed :grin:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Not again [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3510628 - 12/16/04 09:33 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

[Diploid bookmarks this thread and will bring it up again in March.]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Not again [Re: Diploid]
    #3510660 - 12/16/04 09:40 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

March.............oh the bet with Swami........ LOL yeah do that.


But I doubt that me and Swami will be conducting that bet. But when I win a millon bucks you will know that I would have one that bet too :laugh:

I am not a liar. I have found many underground pipes with coat hangers


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Not again [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3510704 - 12/16/04 09:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

But I doubt that me and Swami will be conducting that bet.

Yeah, I figured that when you made the bet.

But when I win a millon bucks you will know

I wish you the best of luck, honestly. :thumbup:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Not again [Re: Diploid]
    #3510726 - 12/16/04 09:55 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Me too because if I do I am throwing a HUGE PARTY for the members of the shroomery. And we all can learn to use the dowsing rods :grin:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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