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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Dominance and Submission Doggie Style
    #3505003 - 12/15/04 07:17 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Whips, chains, and kinky sex.  Are they good or bad?

Now that I have your full attention  :wink:

Animals in groups typically have a hierarchy where the dominant male mates first and eats first which increases the probability that the strongest will reproduce and survive more often than the weakest.
The alpha dog dominates the beta dog and so on.  The runt might starve altogether.  Such is natures way to improve the species.

Human nature is the same.  Power and domination, weakness and submission are a part of us.  Ten thousand years ago, the roles were clearly defined and enforced.  Even today, some countries and cultures maintain the hierarchy of generations ago.  The Chinese come to mind.  The older generation is respected and revered, three generations may live together.  Everyone has their place and knows their place, and the family and relationships are functional and whole and have continuity.

In the U.S. and many other countries, the power structure and dominant-submissive hierarchy in families, work and social situations has become quite confusing and convoluted.  This creates dysfunction and stress. 

Do you agree or disagree?


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3505057 - 12/15/04 07:26 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

As is my understanding, the kind of hierarchies you're recalling from Chinese culture are formed with a basis of respect and genuine admiration. In the west, on the other hand, the same hierarchical structure is based on intimidiation, selfishness, and brutality. It is because it is a hierarchy based on intimidation that it is so unstable, so dysfunctional, and it is this kind of hierarchy that has ties to the jungle-hierarchies of our primate ancestors.

It works for monkies, but it no longer works for us.

Seeing as how mankind is heading out of the jungle, and seeing as how there is no turning back to the jungle, I think we should try to discourage what remaining ties we have to the jungle and jungle-like behavior. Dominant hierarchies, especially male dominated hierarchies, no longer service us as a means to any productive end, and instead the foster ignorance, radical hedonism, and the resulting large-scale conflicts.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3505069 - 12/15/04 07:28 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Yes I agree 100%

Man was animal living under instinct
Man began a relationship with plants, psychoactive plants
Man was awakened to the spirit,God, energy world
Man now has Animal nature and God nature

The cartoons with the devil and an angel on each shoulder ?

That is the nature of Animal or instinct........ The devil

The nature of God or the awakened man.......... The angel


Animals only have one mind to consult, instinct

Man has two and is in a symbiotic evolving relationship with God

The world today is a struggle within man the animal and his new nature of God

Someday we will have completely evolved to God Man


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: Ped]
    #3505336 - 12/15/04 08:05 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"It works for monkies, but it no longer works for us."

To deny our basic nature of dominance and submission is not going to work. The Chinese social hierarchy is what CREATES the "respect and genuine admiration" and not the other way around. In the U.S., we think we do not need the social hierarchy of the Chinese, but it is precisely the LACK of the generational hierarchy that creates the disrespect of the younger generation towards the older generations.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3560942 - 12/30/04 12:41 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

>> To deny our basic nature of dominance and submission is not going to work.

If we believe that dominance and submission are part of our basic nature, your statement is absolutely correct. So long as we believe that dominance and submission are part of our basic nature, it will be impossible to oppose those tendencies.

Are tendencies toward dominance and submission part of our inherent nature? If they are inherent traits of the human being, of course it would be destructive to try to suppress them. If they are not inherent traits of the human being, and if they are traits which are causing problems for the human being, then it makes sense that we should attempt to move away from these habits, instead of embracing them.


>> In the U.S., we think we do not need the social hierarchy of the Chinese, but it is precisely the LACK of the generational hierarchy that creates the disrespect of the younger generation towards the older generations.

It seems that you are saying that it's the generational organization of the ancient Chinese hierarchy that fosters it's peaceful nature, that it's the lack of respect for our elders here in the west that causes us to be so aggressive in organizing our own hierarchy. That's a pertinent observation, but there is much more to it than that, I believe. Surely we can't attribute all the violent competition in America, and it's threatening stance on the world stage, to a simple lack of respect for our parents.

It seems to me that there is a paradigm prevalent the West, one that tells members of it's culture that life is and should be a violent struggle for dominance, kill-or-be-killed, eye for an eye, every man for himself. It has it's roots tangled up in so many different things, from the way we perceive the animal kingdom and our place within it, to the scope we have on evolution. We have decided that tendecies for violence and hatred are inherent in us, and should therefore be embraced instead of discouraged. We neglect our capacity for compassion and kindness because we have decided that these are untrustworthy states of being that leave us vulnerable. This is a gravely mistaken outlook, I believe, and we can understand it's effects simply by switching on the news.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3561181 - 12/30/04 01:49 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

This first-second-third chakra predominance still lives on the street, which is still the law-of-the-jungle so-to-speak. This is the lowest common denominator of humanity - "Centauric" humans who live out an essentially mammalian existence and little else. The culture of street life, including the 'sounds' that motivate that strata (notice that I don't say 'music') of society is about survival (1st chakra mentality), sexuality (2nd chakra) that is non-bonding, promiscuous and tends towards (in males) the attempted accumulation of girlfriends in a loosely harem-style, or more organized into a 'stable' of girls, pimp-prostitute style. The anal-genital complex (Root Center of 1st and 2nd chakra mentalities) are then controlled with the chakra of control and power, the 3rd chakra mentality. Territoriality, marked not by urine or musk, but perhaps with graffiti, is intended to secure basic goods (shelter, available females, consumables like food, drugs or electronic games [which themselves are a mirroring of this lifestyle, like the Grandtheft Auto series]).

The street culture is what is glamorized in the US, not Chinese ancestor-worship. Respect is unknown, fear goes by the name of respect. Respect is an acknowledgement of experience-gleaned wisdom - experience acquired over a long life. Fear is a 1st chakra state that we have in common with mammals, reptiles and lower life forms. It is no wonder that people who are ALL about the lower chakra preoccupations are often referred to as 'low-life.' Any life that is lived intentionally below the 4th motivational center - the Heart Center - which is characterized by Compassion, empathy, sympathy, love; which has the motto: "No love," is sociopathic by definition.

At an earlier phase in MY human development - adolescence - the alpha males were the jocks, the mesomorphic-somatotonic humans. Domination WAS physical then because we were adolescents - still concrete in our values. Boys were bullies, girls confused brutality for masculinity. The more emotionally sensitive Endomorphic-Viscerotonics and the more intellectually sensitive Ectomorphic-Cerebrotonics (essentially the fat and skinny kids, and variations between) were able to be marginalized because of the adolescent physical dominance. Many people never mature in life, they simply become older versions of adolescents. Add to this emotional handicaps or downright mental disorders and retarded moral development and behold - an entire youth culture based on pathology and criminality where animal propensities define the alpha male. Oh yes...another generation of male oppressors of the females, who in turn produce litters of unwanted, unloved children who will perpetuate this misery.

The "runt" of the litter, who will not do well in the concrete jungle, may, hopefully, go on to become a really gifted surgeon, for example. Which child then will improve humanity as a species - the street scum or the surgeon? Sociobiology, you see, is limited in humans. We are human beings, not merely human mammals. Homo Sapiens Sapiens is
'Knowing Man Who Knows.' It is only the self-reflective human who is truly Homo Sapiens Sapiens (IMO). All of our genetics might be fully human, but our Beinghood differs greatly. This is why I find Truth in the Gnostic categories of Hylic, Psychic and Pneumatic.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3561205 - 12/30/04 01:55 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

You know... I would've like what you said better if you just left out the esoteric terminology. You could've said the same thing with less effort and less potential for misinterpretation.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: Sclorch]
    #3561242 - 12/30/04 02:10 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

where a bully style society is allowed to form, it streamlines itself to that - over generations all become dumber and dumber - internally weaker.
Eventually the group fails to function effectively either among competing groups, such as american manufacturing is now succumbing to outsourcing (due to alpha business types running the country), or within itself, such as when revolutions occur due to awakening of the populous (rare).
Alpha pack hunting is a different matter related more to a kind of predatory militarism.
There are limits to the applicability of the alpha pack model as it depends on limitless natural resources, and it requires a kind of advancement from generation to generation in the alpha itself, which is not guaranteed at all.

The only thing this structure does guarantee is elimination of runts, which is not a good idea as far as I am concerned since I am a runt.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: Sclorch]
    #3561257 - 12/30/04 02:16 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

But I'm the 'Johnny Appleseed of Esotericism.' I mean, my Opus, my Doctoral dissertation, was about importing ancient Indian psychology into the Western mentality. It is still my mission to get people to know that we're a multi-dimensional being, and to further know where they're coming from, motivationally. It's the rudiment of self-knowledge to know why we do what we do, instead of becoming mindless automatons for Nike: "Just Do It!"

So Now you know why I do what I do :wink:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3561267 - 12/30/04 02:19 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, I haven't forgotten your background.
But maybe you're right... flowery words are more important than a clear message.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got a new Bible to write...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: Sclorch]
    #3561365 - 12/30/04 02:44 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

My message IS clear, and if you are inquisitive enough to read the post, and find something unclear, the logical recourse is to inquire further, not be dismissive. Of course, if you are reading not to learn anything, but merely as a prelude to criticism for its own sake, then, based on that, a sarcastic response makes 'sense.' Why bother?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3561505 - 12/30/04 03:19 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
My message IS clear, and if you are inquisitive enough to read the post, and find something unclear, the logical recourse is to inquire further, not be dismissive. Of course, if you are reading not to learn anything, but merely as a prelude to criticism for its own sake, then, based on that, a sarcastic response makes 'sense.' Why bother?




Oh man... don't mistake my curtness for sarcasm or cynicism.

I just know that it's hard enough for some to put 2 and 2 together... and then you go and bring in multiplication.  Your esoteric dressing insulates from both criticism (positive and negative) and understanding (you know it's thick).

:heart:


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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3561669 - 12/30/04 04:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think I understand why you both, Sclorch and Markos, have your reasons for the comments you've made. Valid reasons, both. Markos is trying to inspire the reader to learn, think, and seek out knowledge. In his answering of the previously posted question, he hopes to bring up more questions which drive the reader to further inquire about their meanings. Is that about right?

Sclorch on the other hand sees where many might be confused by the colorful use of the english language, and a few others but mostly english. He feels this diverts the reader, leaving the original question unanswered in their mind and no progress has been made in this particular area understanding. Have I gotten that about right?

I can appreciate both approaches, as having only a high school education, myself, I enjoy being introduced to new ideas and thought processes in order that I might learn from them. On the other hand there is the issue of time which we all have so precious little of and I might be inclined to stay focused on the present topic instead of perusing through online dictionaries and internet links in order to grasp the full scope of a poster's message.

That being said, it seems appearant now upon looking back on my view of this that there was no reason for this post whatsoever. I have taken up, as usual, a totally neutral standpoint. In light of this, I'll attempt to steer the thread back on topic by quoting a portion of Markos's post which I thought had a more profound sense of reason than any other previously or subsequently posted observation.

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The "runt" of the litter, who will not do well in the concrete jungle, may, hopefully, go on to become a really gifted surgeon, for example. Which child then will improve humanity as a species - the street scum or the surgeon?




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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3563194 - 12/30/04 11:48 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"Which child then will improve humanity as a species - the street scum or the surgeon?"

The street scum who turns his life around and becomes a surgeon?

j/k

It depends on one's definition of "improve humanity as a species"?

I will agree the "street scum" may not be the nicest guy, but he might have some unique and beneficial gene that will improve the gene pool, assuming he reproduces to pass on the gene.

The surgeon might be a nice Jewish boy who happens to like other nice Jewish boys, so no Jrs. for him (assuming he stays gay). Or, he could be the greatest brain surgeon in the world, and have a gene that just happens to interact with his lovely wife's gene to produce a poor baby with a physical defect bound to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in treatments yet result in an early and painful death. Did the surgeon in this case "improve humanity as a species?" in spite of his surgical and parental skills and caring for the child?

Not to be callous, or anything...


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3563569 - 12/31/04 01:03 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

We are still primitive beings. Deep thought and the resulting action is what seperates and ascends us from our animal kin.

Unfortunately, we arent taught how to think, we're taught how to learn (to see and do).


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style *DELETED* [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3563622 - 12/31/04 01:11 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x



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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: poke smot!]
    #3563868 - 12/31/04 02:11 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Dominance and Submission are not simply related to physical prowess. In the human animal intelligence can change the tide of a battle.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Invisiblejux
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Re: Dominance and Submission Doggie Style [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3565415 - 12/31/04 02:49 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I doubt most people are capable of being independent from a Dominant-Submissive system. Americans may have little family ties, but so many of them replace those ties with religion. The need for a source of Dominance is so deeply infused into people that, for good or bad, it is needed.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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