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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Anarcho-syndicalism?
    #3504178 - 12/15/04 05:18 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm trying to understand this concept. Now, my understanding is that it's much like anarcho-capitalism except without private property. This doesn't sound very feasible to me. As hard as it would be to protect private property without government, it seems it would be damn near impossible to abolish it, at least on a large scale. Yes, I understand that primitive hunter-gatherer societies operated without a state or private property, but this doesn't seem feasible in a modern, interdependent society with specialized labor.

If there's no private property, does that mean strangers can crash at your house without your permission? Can anyone drive your car without asking? Am I missing something here? Can anyone explain this ideology to me?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Anarcho-syndicalism? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3504198 - 12/15/04 05:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

My guess would be that there would be no such thing as "your car" or "your house". That's just a guess though.

If a community were to cooperate on every level - including building houses, privacy would become a different concept, in any case. I don't know if it could work, though. ANY type of anarchy for that matter.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Anarcho-syndicalism? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3504202 - 12/15/04 05:24 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That sounds like it would only work in an egalitarian hunter gatherer society. An industrial civilization cannot function without property.


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2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Anarcho-syndicalism? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3505199 - 12/15/04 07:45 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

SilverSoul - you are confusing private property and personal property. there is a huge difference, and it is not seeing this difference that raises your question. the simplest way to explain the difference is by an example. say you own a car. now if you use this car to go from your house to your job and to school, it is your personal property. however, if you begin to use the car as a taxi-cab, or even more so, if you hire me to use your car as a taxi-cab, it becomes private property. in anarcho-syndicalism, the means of production aren't owned by anyone (or are owned by everyone, depending upon how you look at it). thus, there is no private property. however, personal property is something very natural and makes a lot of sense - after all, i don't want to wear your dirty underwear, nor you mine, so we should all have our own underwear.

as to the questions of the feasibility of anarcho-syndicalism, i believe it to be one of the few economic/social visions that would actually accomplish what it set out to do, one of the few that would not only allow for, but nurture, values of solidarity, equity, and sustainability, and one of the few that would be self-correcting, and constantly in a state of flux.

I'd highly recommend the book "Anarchism in Theory and Practice" by Daniel Guerin (can be found online here: http://www.zabalaza.net/texts/anarchism_guerin/contents.html) to get a better understanding of some of the basic concepts of anarcho-syndicalism, and the book "Parecon" by Michael Albert (can be found online here: http://www.zmag.org/books/pareconv/parefinal.htm) for a very detailed economic explanation as to how a system of participatory self-management might function.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Anarcho-syndicalism? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3506218 - 12/15/04 10:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Anarcho-syndicalism is not even close to anarcho-capitalism. It is in fact nothing but another form of collectivism. There are a few lengthy and detailed threads in the PA&L archives (with links to a couple of anarcho-syndicalist sites) from back in the days when Agent Cooper and Svoboda and mm. used to post here. Here's one, but there were several others http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/357603/page//fpart/1/vc/1



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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Anarcho-syndicalism? [Re: Phred]
    #3506247 - 12/15/04 10:42 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

whoa the old UBB style is crazy looking :smile:

so do you still think libertarian socialism is an oxymoron, pinky?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Anarcho-syndicalism? [Re: Krishna]
    #3506341 - 12/15/04 11:01 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Read further into the thread. At the time AgentCooper used the term I was unaware that some anarchosyndicalists had been using it before the American Libertarian Party gave a different perception of the word "libertarian" in North America. Once provided with sources showing anarchists had used the term over a century ago, I conceded the point and apologized to him.

That being said, my point on how the anarchosyndicalists tend to hide the true nature of their agenda through other real oxymorons such as "free communism," remains valid.

However, just as "liberal" today means something far different from what it did at the time of the Enlightenment, "libertarian" today has a generally accepted meaning (in North America at least) than it did in Kropotkin's day. If one uses "libertarian" the way it is commonly used on political discussion boards of today, then "libertarian socialism" is of course an oxymoron.

This confusion of terms is one reason why I will periodically refer to myself as a Laissez-faire Capitalist rather than as a Libertarian (a la American Libertarian Party). That way there is no possibility of confusion.

pinky


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Anarcho-syndicalism? [Re: Phred]
    #3506380 - 12/15/04 11:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

so do you still think libertarian socialism is an oxymoron, pinky?




I just want to add that I had read one of pinky's posts where he stated something along the lines of the following: libertarian socialism strives for liberties in everything except for economic situations, ie a person is free to decide what he puts into his body but is not free from taxation (theft in Libertarian's words). That be so some feel libertarian socialism is an oxymoron since the socialism portion counters the libertarian postition.

As pinky just stated the privious idea is only true if the Libertarian definition of libertarian is used.


Edit: Oops it was mushmaster

Quote:

the defining characteristic of libertarianism is that it protects liberty in all activities except a certain subcategory of interpersonal interactions... the initiation of force.

libertarian socialism on the other hand, is presumably only libertarian in that it protects liberty in all activities except nearly all subcategories of interpersonal interactions... but really, it doesn't even protect liberty that far. even in solitude, one is subject to the power of the state if one decides to engage in productive labor.

there's really nothing libertarian about libertarian socialism at all.




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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Edited by cb9fl (12/15/04 11:13 PM)


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Anarcho-syndicalism? [Re: Phred]
    #3506415 - 12/15/04 11:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Read further into the thread.




:smile: i eat my own words... i read onto the next page (or maybe it was page 3, i just hit "all") and saw where the distinction was made and definitions firmed up.


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