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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
"Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world...
    #3503358 - 12/15/04 01:59 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

To any of you who believe in Natural rights, I ask these questions:

What color is a right?

How much does a right weigh?

How tall is a right?

If you had trouble answering any of these questions, perhaps it is because "natural rights" do not objectively exist. They are merely an idea in our minds. While I do think that the concept of rights is very beautiful and noble, and should be striven for, I am forced to acknowledge that they do not exist anywhere but our minds. There is nothing natural about them. They are an artificial invention of man, much like time.

In objective reality, there are no such thing as rights. There are only such things as capabilities. You may think you have the right to live, but my 9mm pistol gives me the capability to kill you. Therefore, in purely objective terms, capabilities superceed rights.

I am not saying this is the way things should be. I am merely acknowledging that this is the way things are. Too many people try to tell everyone the way things should be without acknowledging or understanding the way things are. Maybe this is why I don't buy into the "party of principles" (which could really mean any party).

This concept of "natural rights" I think lends oneslelf to a sense of entitlement which is unrealistic. The sad fact is this: You don't have any rights, I don't have any rights, and the President of the United States doesn't have any rights, but he DOES have a shitload of capabilities that you and me don't. This is my objective assessment of the situation.

You may think you have the right to property. But in fact the only property you can keep is the property you are capable of defending. Getting rich is only half the battle. Staying rich (ie-defending your wealth from those who would plunder it) is another battle altogether. It is the responsibility of accumulators of wealth to defend that wealth, whether they like it or not.

"Natural rights"? Give me a break. You ain't entitled to shit, nigga. Everything you get you have to fight for, and once you have it you'll have to defend it against a steady stream of motherfuckers tryin to take it from you.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlineld50negative1
lethal dosage

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 821
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3503372 - 12/15/04 02:06 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

You have no right to post on this board.
You have no right to live.
You have no right to breath.
You have no right to come to silly conclusions such as this.
You have no right to ask what IS the "right" color.

Colors have the "right" to exist because they DO exist.

A direction relative to you DOES exist and therefore has the right to exist.

You are alive and have the will to chose.
The fact that you are here and do the things you do are proof that you have ordained rights.

You have the right to live your life until you die.
You have the right to seek out your own destiny.
You have the right to believe what you will believe.
You have the right to act as you please.
(Ignoring or submitting to consequences because of this of course)

Can anyone take those things away? No.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3503393 - 12/15/04 02:10 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

there aren't any natural rights, only man-made "natural" rights.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3503412 - 12/15/04 02:14 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You have the right to live your life until you die.
You have the right to seek out your own destiny.
You have the right to believe what you will believe.
You have the right to act as you please.
(Ignoring or submitting to consequences because of this of course)

Can anyone take those things away? No.




ummmm... I'm pretty sure anyone could easily take those rights away from me by killing or imprisoning me, which could happen at any time.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3504340 - 12/15/04 05:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

You'd still have the right, it would just be suppressed at the time. I'm not sure if I'm attributing this quote right, but didn't you say that people have a "right" to medical care, shelter, food, etcet?


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3504343 - 12/15/04 05:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

How tall is an idea?


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineDeepDish
Stranger
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 86
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: SoopaX]
    #3504616 - 12/15/04 06:22 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Ideas are a product of the brain stemming from chemical and electrical impulses. In that sense they can be objectivly measured, although it is somewhat out of the realm of human measuring systems.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 6 days
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: DeepDish]
    #3504640 - 12/15/04 06:25 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think Dr J is *spit* correct. Your rights are just exactly what you and your friends can take for yourselves, by force, if necessary.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3504969 - 12/15/04 07:12 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not sure rights exist in nature, but I think that any free society requires the recognition of rights.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,284
Loc: oakland
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3505078 - 12/15/04 07:29 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

first of all, i think you are confusing "objective reality" with "material reality" - an all-too common confusion in our scientifically driven world. one of the major splits of philosophical thought is materialist/idealist - a materialist would argue as you did - that since there is no "physical" existence of a right, it has no basis in reality. an idealist would argue that all the "material" manifestations are merely one form of "ideal" manifestations - ie - a materialist would say the object has reality, and the thought we have of it is secondary (and some might go as far as to deny the existence of the thought, or claim it only to be electrical impulse), and an idealist would claim the thought, idea, or concept is primary, and the material manifestation is just one facet of this. so do you believe that there is nothing but the physical world? if we want to have a discussion about idealism vs materialism, i guess we should head one forum up, to S&P...

secondly, what do you mean by "the way things are"? do you mean the way things are in our current, modern-western society? or the way thing are in the animal kingdom? or the way things were in aboriginal societies? or?

in my study of human rights, the concept of "natural rights" was certainly a key one. and, as do many things in ethics/morality, it varies greatly from culture to culture. in one culture, we might see the right to personal and private property to be highly valued, and seen as fundamental to ensuring the rest of the rights. in another culture, the concept of personal and private property might not even exist. does this mean that there is no such thing as "natural rights?" i would argue that it does not - it just indicates that some sort of synthesis of the collective human experience must be attempted - a "perennial philosophy", if you will - in order to give some concrete definition of "natural rights." and, like all things that have some truth in them, i believe such a definition would be inherently in flux.

the only "definition" of sorts that i can really give is that "natural rights" (or "basic rights") are those that without which, no other rights would be possible. thus, for example, the most commonly recognized of basic rights - the right to life.

EDIT - this wasn't meant to be replied to SS7, but to the first post :smile:


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Edited by Krishna (12/15/04 07:30 PM)


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3506779 - 12/16/04 12:40 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"Natural Rights" is a concept which identifies a person's ability to act or refrain from acting without undesired interference from another, as long as his actions do not interfere with another's ability to act or refrain from acting against his wishes. To designate something a natural right, means that no one may (if he honors your natural rights) stop you from performing an action or compel you to an action. In other words there is only one natural right, that is to do as you damn well please as long as you do not interfere with another's right to do as he damn well pleases. All other natural rights derive from this basic right.

Though termed "natural," this does not mean that a right cannot be violated, or that it is somehow a magical power humans are born with which wards off evil spirits, it is merely a label to differentiate these as a specific kind of right - a recognition of a condition in which people interact with mutual consent. Being a prohibition against non-consensual action, the honoring of natural rights is the basis of a truly civil society.

Asking about the color, weight or height of a right, is like asking about the color, weight or height of an unfettered ability to say what you want, or make love to whom you want.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleGabbaDj
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,449
Loc: By The Lake
Re: "Natural Rights" and the delusion of a just world... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3506889 - 12/16/04 01:09 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

What color is hunger?

How Much does hunger Weigh?

How Tall is hunger?

I guess theirs no such thing as hunger?


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG          C8.com                    http://www.beatsopjefiets.com/   


Edited by GabbaDj (12/16/04 01:16 AM)


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