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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
New Seismic Data Refutes Official Explanation Of WTC Collapses
    #3500654 - 12/14/04 11:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.americanfreepress.net/09_03_02/NEW_SEISMIC_/new_seismic_.html

Seismic Data: Two Huge Energy
Bursts Under WTC Towers
New Seismic Data Refutes Official Explanation Of Collapses
Exclusive to American Free Press
By Christopher Bollyn
12-13-4

Two unexplained "spikes" in the seismic record from Sept. 11 indicate huge bursts of energy shook the ground beneath the World Trade Center's twin towers immediately prior to the collapse.

American Free Press has learned of pools of "molten steel" found at the base of the collapsed twin towers weeks after the collapse. Although the energy source for these incredibly hot areas has yet to be explained, New York seismometers recorded huge bursts of energy, which caused unexplained seismic "spikes" at the beginning of each collapse.

These spikes suggest that massive underground explosions may have literally knocked the towers off their foundations, causing them to collapse.

In the basements of the collapsed towers, where the 47 central support columns connected with the bedrock, hot spots of "literally molten steel" were discovered more than a month after the collapse. Such persistent and intense residual heat, 70 feet below the surface, in an oxygen starved environment, could explain how these crucial structural supports failed.

Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the World Trade Center.

Tully was contracted after the Sept. 11 tragedy to re move the debris from the site.

Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., for consultation about removing the debris. CDI calls itself "the innovator and global leader in the controlled demolition and implosion of structures."

Loizeaux, who cleaned up the bombed Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, arrived at the WTC site two days later and wrote the clean-up plan for the entire operation.

AFP asked Loizeaux about the report of molten steel on the site.

"Yes," he said, "hot spots of molten steel in the basements."

These incredibly hot areas were found "at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven [basement] levels," Loizeaux said.

The molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed," Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon.

Construction steel has an extremely high melting point of about 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit.

Asked what could have caused such extreme heat, Tully said, "Think of the jet fuel."

Loizeaux told AFP that the steel-melting fires were fueled by "paper, carpet and other combustibles packed down the elevator shafts by the tower floors as they 'pancaked' into the basement."

However, some independent investigators dispute this claim, saying kerosene-based jet fuel, paper, or the other combustibles normally found in the towers, cannot generate the heat required to melt steel, especially in an oxygen-poor environment like a deep basement.

Eric Hufschmid, author of a book about the WTC collapse, Painful Questions,* told AFP that due to the lack of oxygen, paper and other combustibles packed down at the bottom of elevator shafts would probably be "a smoky smoldering pile."

Experts disagree that jet-fuel or paper could generate such heat.

This is impossible, they say, because the maximum temperature that can be reached by hydrocarbons like jet-fuel burning in air is 1,520 degrees F. Because the WTC fires were fuel rich, as evidenced by the thick black smoke, it is argued that they did not reach this upper limit.

The hottest spots at the surface of the rubble, where abundant oxygen was available, were much cooler than the molten steel found in the basements.

Five days after the collapse, on Sept. 16, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) used an Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) to locate and measure the site's hot spots.

Dozens of hot spots were mapped, the hottest being in the east corner of the South Tower where a temperature of 1,377 degrees F was recorded.

This is, however, less than half as hot at the molten steel in the basement.

The foundations of the twin towers were 70 feet deep. At that level, 47 huge box columns, connected to the bedrock, supported the entire gravity load of the structures. The steel walls of these lower box columns were four inches thick.

Videos of the North Tower collapse show its communication mast falling first, indicating that the central support columns must have failed at the very beginning of the collapse. Loizeaux told AFP, "Everything went simultaneously."

"At 10:29 the entire top section of the North Tower had been severed from the base and began falling down," Hufschmid writes. "If the first event was the falling of a floor, how did that progress to the severing of hundreds of columns?"

Asked if the vertical support columns gave way before the connections between the floors and the columns, Ron Hamburger, a structural engineer with the FEMA assessment team said, "That's the $64,000 question."

Loizeaux said, "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure."

SEISMIC 'SPIKES'

Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, N.Y., 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded strange seismic activity on Sept. 11 that has still not been explained.

While the aircraft crashes caused minimal earth shaking, significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred at the beginning of each collapse.

The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake during the 8-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31.

However, the Palisades seismic record shows that-as the collapses began-a huge seismic "spike" marked the moment the greatest energy went into the ground. The strongest jolts were all registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before the falling debris struck the Earth.

These unexplained "spikes" in the seismic data lend credence to the theory that massive explosions at the base of the towers caused the collapses.

A "sharp spike of short duration" is how seismologist Thorne Lay of University of California at Santa Cruz told AFP an underground nuclear explosion appears on a seismograph.

The two unexplained spikes are more than 20 times the amplitude of the other seismic waves associated with the collapses and occurred in the East-West seismic recording as the buildings began to fall.

Experts cannot explain why the seismic waves peaked before the towers actually hit the ground.

Asked about these spikes, seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam, director of Columbia University's Center for Hazards and Risk Research told AFP, "This is an element of current research and discussion. It is still being investigated."

Lerner-Lam told AFP that a 10-fold increase in wave amplitude indicates a 100-fold increase in energy released. These "short-period surface waves," reflect "the interaction between the ground and the building foundation," according to a report from Columbia Earth Institute.

"The seismic effects of the collapses are comparable to the explosions at a gasoline tank farm near Newark on Jan. 7, 1983," the Palisades Seismology Group reported on Sept. 14, 2001.

One of the seismologists, Won-Young Kim, told AFP that the Palisades seismographs register daily underground explosions from a quarry 20 miles away.

These blasts are caused by 80,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and cause local earthquakes between Magnitude 1 and 2. Kim said the 1993 truck-bomb at the WTC did not register on the seismographs because it was "not coupled" to the ground.

"Only a small fraction of the energy from the collapsing towers was converted into ground motion," Lerner-Lam said. "The ground shaking that resulted from the collapse of the towers was extremely small."

Last November, Lerner-Lam said: "During the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and the neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage-but not causing significant ground shaking."

Evidently, the energy source that shook the ground beneath the towers was many times more powerful than the total potential energy released by the falling mass of the towers. The question is: What was that energy source?

While steel is often tested for evidence of explosions, despite numerous eyewitness reports of explosions in the towers, the engineers involved in the FEMA-sponsored building assessment did no such tests.

Dr. W. Gene Corley, who investigated for the government the cause of the fire at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing, headed the FEMA-sponsored engineering assessment of the WTC collapse.

Corley told AFP that while some tests had been done on the 80 pieces of steel saved from the site, he said he did not know about tests that show if an explosion had affected the steel.

"I am not a metallurgist," Corley said.

Much of the structural steel from the WTC was sold to Alan D. Ratner of Metal Management of Newark, N.J., and the New York-based company Hugo Neu Schnitzer East.

Ratner, who heads the New Jersey branch of the Chi ca go-based company, sold the WTC steel to overseas companies, reportedly selling more than 50,000 tons of steel to a Shanghai steel company known as Baosteel for $120 per ton. Ratner paid about $70 per ton for the steel.

Other shipments of steel from the WTC went to India and other Asian ports.

Ratner came to Metal Management after spending years with a metal trading firm known as SimsMetal based out of Sydney, Australia.


* Painful Questions (Item# 1051, $20, 160 pages, softcover) Is available from First Amendment Books, 645 Pennsylvania Avenue SE, Suite 100, Washington D.C. 20003. Call 1-888-699-6397 to order by Visa or MasterCard.


http://www.americanfreepress.net/09_03_02/NEW_SEISMIC_/new_seismic_.html
\
http://www.americanfreepress.net/AFP_Distributor_Brochure.pdf


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: New Seismic Data Refutes Official Explanation Of WTC Collapses [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3500677 - 12/14/04 11:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/underground/underground_explosions.htm

First-hand Accounts of Underground Explosions In The North Tower


This article from Chief Engineer magazine presents eyewitness account of the moments after the first plane crash, and describes evidence of large explosions in the lobby, parking garage and subbasement levels of WTC-1 at the time of the crash

It contains some fascinating first-hand accounts of the events of September 11 as recounted by operating engineers on the scene. One of the most remarkable is the story of Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the 6th sub-basement of the North Tower when the first plane hit. Here are some excerpts:

Stationary Engineer Mike Pecoraro

At about 6:45 he went to the mechanical shop in the second subbasement, ate his breakfast and chatted with his co-workers who were also arriving for the normal 8:00 a.m. beginning of their shift. Mike?s assignment that day would be to continue constructing a gantry that would be used to pull the heads from the 2,500 ton chillers, located in the 6th sub- basement level of the tower. 49,000 tons of refrigeration equipment were located in the lower level of the tower. The 2,500 ton units were the smallest in use...


Deep below the tower, Mike Pecoraro was suddenly interrupted in his grinding task by a shake on his shoulder from his co-worker. ?Did you see that?? he was asked. Mike told him that he had seen nothing. ?You didn?t see the lights flicker??, his co-worker asked again. ?No,? Mike responded, but he knew immediately that if the lights had flickered, it could spell trouble. A power surge or interruption could play havoc with the building?s equipment. If all the pumps trip out or pulse meters trip, it could make for a very long day bringing the entire center?s equipment back on-line.

Mike told his co-worker to call upstairs to their Assistant Chief Engineer and find out if everything was all right. His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and ?sit tight? until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. ?We smelled kerosene,? Mike recalled, ?I was thinking maybe a car fire was upstairs?, referring to the parking garage located below grade in the tower but above the deep space where they were working.

The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.

?There was nothing there but rubble, ?Mike said. ?We?re talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press ? gone!? The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. ?You could stand here,? he said, ?and two inches over you couldn?t breathe. We couldn?t see through the smoke so we started screaming.? But there was still no answer.

The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. ?There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can?t see anything? he said.

They decided to ascend two more levels to the building?s lobby. As they ascended to the B Level, one floor above, they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up ?like a piece of aluminum foil? and lying on the floor. ?They got us again,? Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack at the center in 1993. Having been through that bombing, Mike recalled seeing similar things happen to the building?s structure. He was convinced a bomb had gone off in the building.

Consider the implications of what Mr. Pecoraro describes: At this point the only overt damage to the building was the plane crash some 95 floors above, which could not have caused violent explosions underground. Since the towers were anchored at the base to the bedrock the shaking caused by the crash would have been greatest close to the crash site, getting progressively weaker as it approached the rigid attachment at the bottom. Yet the underground damage he describes can not have been the result of a mere shaking - nothing short of an explosion could reduce the contents of a machine shop to rubble.



Damage to the North Tower Lobby

The damage to the parking garage and lobby simultaneous with the first plane impact are also indicative of the effects of high explosives, with widespread blast damage and fine dust covering the entire scene. Below is a link to a video clip of the WTC-1 lobby area just after the first plane crash, as seen in the documentary "9/11" made by Jules and Gedeon Naudet:

The narrator claims that he "later learned" that there had been an explosion caused by fuel pouring down an elevator shaft, but the lobby shows none of the soot or fuel residue we would expect from such an explosion. Instead we see blown-out windows and a fine dry dust covering the entire lobby, very much the signature of high explosives. Similar damage to the parking garages and subbasements can only be explained by pre-placed explosive charges that were detonated at the moment of the plane's impact.



Another account of underground blasts

Construction worker Phillip Morelli describes being thrown to the ground by two explosions while in the fourth subbasement of the North Tower. The first, which threw him to the ground and seemed to coincide with the plane crash, was followed by a larger blast that again threw him to the ground and this time blew out walls. He then made his way to the South Tower and was in the subbasement there when the second plane hit, again associated with a powerful underground blast. This is one of a series of interviews with WTC survivors done by NY1 News: http://ny1.com/pages/RRR/911special_survivors.html


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: New Seismic Data Refutes Official Explanation Of WTC Collapses [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3500967 - 12/15/04 12:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Whats a Stationary Engineer?

Did he hand out paper better than just, say, an office cleark..?


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3502730 - 12/15/04 09:47 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The data isn't new and this article had already been posted here at least twice, most probably by you...

You've already got a thread for debating the US governments conspiracy to cover up what really happened on 9-11. Why make another one?



--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3502770 - 12/15/04 10:04 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

st0nedphucker said:
The data isn't new and this article had already been posted here at least twice, most probably by you...

You've already got a thread for debating the US governments conspiracy to cover up what really happened on 9-11. Why make another one?




Sure the data might have been made public some time ago, but according to the date up above, this particular article was published about 2 days ago..so I posted it.

*shrug*



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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3502826 - 12/15/04 10:28 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Can you confirm that? The 09_03_02 in the link makes me think otherwise plus at the top of the actual webpage it says 'Updated April 12, 2004'...

I could very well be mistaken but I am quite sure this or an extremely similar piece has been posted recently.

Either way i'm fairly postive everything you posted has been discussed at length on numerous previous occasions.

Look....

Bombs in the Building: World Trade Center 'Conspiracy Fact'

"2) ....why was there a noticeable seismic spike in the vicinity of the crash at 10:06:05 and none at 10:03:12?"
-Mon Sep-20-04 01:20 AM

Taken from another Message Board


Looks like you or your buddies are a little late...

I do,however, owe you an apology. It was ekomstop, another of our resident conspiracy buffs, who posted it here originally.  :smirk:


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


Edited by st0nedphucker (12/15/04 10:29 AM)


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3502861 - 12/15/04 10:43 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hey no problem, you might be right after all about the article being old, the date I noticed was not in the link but in the header of the article..

"Seismic Data: Two Huge Energy
Bursts Under WTC Towers
New Seismic Data Refutes Official Explanation Of Collapses
Exclusive to American Free Press
By Christopher Bollyn
12-13-4"

Although it was not intentional, I know double posting can be annoying sometimes, but I mean with a fairly high number of people still in ignorance of this kind of 'forbidden evidence' which just so happens to contradict with the official 9/11 fable, I guess I just like to throw different bits of info onto the table here and there to help stir up some potentially interesting discussions..perhaps if any given number of people for whom this information may benefit missed it last time happened to stumble upon this thread this time around it would make the double post all the more worth while..


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OfflineTurn
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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: usefulidiot]
    #5602088 - 05/07/06 08:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well no offcial explanation to this? Noone has a counter proposal to what happend, anyone have a link that debunks this? I like to read both sides


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: Turn]
    #5604042 - 05/08/06 07:12 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

A counter proposal to what happened?

Jet airliners crashed into the buildings?

No, that could never happen.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: Turn]
    #5604099 - 05/08/06 08:40 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

> Noone has a counter proposal to what happend

I have posted in excess about this. For anybody that has worked in the explosive demolition field, the seismic data, as described, actually goes against explosives, not for explosives. If explosives had been used, there would be at least ten seconds of explosions going off on a regular interval of around 0.25 seconds... lots of little snaps, not one big boom... the building would then begin to fall towards the end of the snaps. I suspect the large impulse seen occurred when the top of the building smashed through the weakened floors below it. The force of this fall would be translated through the superstructure of the building into the foundation and bedrock.

My theory should be easy to disprove by looking at the data. If the impulses are the same size, then it is more likely explosives. However, if I am correct, then the impulses will be different sizes because the planes hit at different heights, thus the potential energy released at the start of the collapse would be different. The building that got hit lower should show a larger peak on the graph.


Quote:

Two unexplained "spikes" in the seismic record from Sept. 11 indicate huge bursts of energy shook the ground beneath the World Trade Center's twin towers immediately prior to the collapse.




The spikes in the seismic record are easy to explain. However, it is much better to start out an article and pretend that there is something mystical and nefarious about the spikes. Gotta set the stage, you know.

Quote:

American Free Press has learned of pools of "molten steel" found at the base of the collapsed twin towers weeks after the collapse. Although the energy source for these incredibly hot areas has yet to be explained, New York seismometers recorded huge bursts of energy, which caused unexplained seismic "spikes" at the beginning of each collapse.




The molten steel found in the rubble is common knowledge, but it sounds more mysterious when written as if the AFP had to discover something hidden. How hot is increadibly hot? Are we talking surface of the sun hot or molten steel hot? The hot spots have been explained, but it doesn't sound as conspiratorial. Read carefully. Notice how they tie the hot spots into the seismograph data through poor grammar, not science.

Quote:

These spikes suggest that massive underground explosions may have literally knocked the towers off their foundations, causing them to collapse.




No, the author of the story is suggesting that a massive underground explosions may have literally knocked the towers off their foundations.

Quote:

In the basements of the collapsed towers, where the 47 central support columns connected with the bedrock, hot spots of "literally molten steel" were discovered more than a month after the collapse. Such persistent and intense residual heat, 70 feet below the surface, in an oxygen starved environment, could explain how these crucial structural supports failed.




Good, some facts. The support columns are directly coupled to the bedrock. Therefore, energy can easily be translated from the support columns into the bedrock... a purpose for which they were designed. Something has to hold the building up. We will come back to this.

Another good fact... the hot spots of molten steel were found 70 feet below the surface in an oxygen starved environment. Think about this... oxygen starved means that there was no gas exchange to remove heat. Earth makes a very good heat insulator. At 70 feet down, there is a lot of earth to insulate the molten steel. If the entire area is hot, the hot spots are going to cool down even slower.

He ends the paragraph with a hint that that the hot spots are going to explain the collapse of the buildings... again, he is setting up the reader.

Quote:

Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the World Trade Center.




I cannot tell the difference between molten steel, molten iron, molten plastic, molten lead, or molten aluminum alloy. I have worked with all of these molten metals and in the liquid phase, they look pretty much alike.

Quote:

Tully was contracted after the Sept. 11 tragedy to re move the debris from the site.




Which makes him an expert on molten metal identification?

Quote:

Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., for consultation about removing the debris. CDI calls itself "the innovator and global leader in the controlled demolition and implosion of structures."

Loizeaux, who cleaned up the bombed Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, arrived at the WTC site two days later and wrote the clean-up plan for the entire operation.




Nope, he isn't an expert... so he called an expert... but he has already given us his non-expert opinion that molten steel is present and we have been hooked into knowing that the unidentified molten material is indeed steel.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: Seuss]
    #5604101 - 05/08/06 08:40 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

AFP asked Loizeaux about the report of molten steel on the site.

"Yes," he said, "hot spots of molten steel in the basements."

These incredibly hot areas were found "at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven [basement] levels," Loizeaux said.




Ok, let us assume that it is indeed molten steel. Notice the locations... bottoms of elevator shafts. Remember earlier, my comment about melting steel with jet fuel if you had a large volume of quickly moving air... such as air that is being vented up an elevator shaft? Hot air rises. The fire at the center of the building would have caused a huge updraft with much of the air going through the unobstructed elevator shafts. The elevator shafts also make a nice drain for any molten metals.

Quote:

The molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed," Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon.




Ah yes, lets confuse the issue. We have a mysterious collapse and more mysterious steel. I will come back to this as well.

Quote:

Construction steel has an extremely high melting point of about 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit.




Misleading. Nobody said it was construction steel that melted. We have steel file cabinets, steel in chairs, steel desks, steel fixtures, steel flooring material, etc.

Quote:

Asked what could have caused such extreme heat, Tully said, "Think of the jet fuel."

Loizeaux told AFP that the steel-melting fires were fueled by "paper, carpet and other combustibles packed down the elevator shafts by the tower floors as they 'pancaked' into the basement."




Actually, I disagree with this. Packed combustibles do not burn, typically. Oxygen is needed.

Quote:

However, some independent investigators dispute this claim, saying kerosene-based jet fuel, paper, or the other combustibles normally found in the towers, cannot generate the heat required to melt steel, especially in an oxygen-poor environment like a deep basement.




Given a fast moving steam of air, jet fuel can melt steel. An oxygen poor environment does not have a fast moving steam of air, obviously.

Quote:

Eric Hufschmid, author of a book about the WTC collapse, Painful Questions,* told AFP that due to the lack of oxygen, paper and other combustibles packed down at the bottom of elevator shafts would probably be "a smoky smoldering pile."




Correct.

Quote:

Experts disagree that jet-fuel or paper could generate such heat.




No they don't... jet fuel burning in open air cannot generate the heat required to melt steel. Jet fuel burning in a fast moving air stream can easily generate the heat required to melt steel. Having studied gas turbine engine design, I know that one of the primary factors that limits the energy produced by the turbine is the exhaust gas temperature... if this gets too hot, the turbine melts.

Quote:

This is impossible, they say, because the maximum temperature that can be reached by hydrocarbons like jet-fuel burning in air is 1,520 degrees F. Because the WTC fires were fuel rich, as evidenced by the thick black smoke, it is argued that they did not reach this upper limit.




Again, only when burning in open air. Just because the majority of the fire was burning in open air (lots of thick black smoke) does not mean that there were not hot spots in the fire.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: Seuss]
    #5604103 - 05/08/06 08:41 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The hottest spots at the surface of the rubble, where abundant oxygen was available, were much cooler than the molten steel found in the basements.




Of course they were... moving air is a good conductor of heat, so it would not take long for the surface to cool down.  Ever go on a camp out and play with the camp fire the next morning.  The ashes on top are cool, but if you dig down a few inches into the ash you will find coals hot enough to burn your skin.  Same thing here.

Quote:

Five days after the collapse, on Sept. 16, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) used an Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) to locate and measure the site's hot spots.

Dozens of hot spots were mapped, the hottest being in the east corner of the South Tower where a temperature of 1,377 degrees F was recorded.




Alrighty, we have used lots and lots of unsubstantiated sources, now lets use a good source.  Hopefully nobody will remember that all of the sources were not as reliable, scientifically, as NASA.

Quote:

This is, however, less than half as hot at the molten steel in the basement.




Again, as expected.  The hot areas closest to the edges of the building should be cooler than the areas in the center.  When you bake a pie, the edges can be cool enough to hold while the center still burns your mouth.

Quote:

The foundations of the twin towers were 70 feet deep. At that level, 47 huge box columns, connected to the bedrock, supported the entire gravity load of the structures. The steel walls of these lower box columns were four inches thick.




Ok.

Quote:

Videos of the North Tower collapse show its communication mast falling first, indicating that the central support columns must have failed at the very beginning of the collapse. Loizeaux told AFP, "Everything went simultaneously."




Uh... how you can go from a tower at the top of the building falling first to the central support columns failing is beyond me.  Perhaps the central support column from the top of the building to the point that the plane crashed went.  Perhaps the heat from the fire below it melted the structure that supported the mast.  There are way too many factors to make such an unsupported statement about the central support column, and then act as if it is an undeniable fact.

Quote:

"At 10:29 the entire top section of the North Tower had been severed from the base and began falling down," Hufschmid writes. "If the first event was the falling of a floor, how did that progress to the severing of hundreds of columns?"




I have no idea what he is talking about.

Quote:

Asked if the vertical support columns gave way before the connections between the floors and the columns, Ron Hamburger, a structural engineer with the FEMA assessment team said, "That's the $64,000 question."

Loizeaux said, "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure."




The final quote sounds as if it were taking out of context.  He is obviously giving a layman explanation of how explosive demolition works.  Kind of like a baker telling somebody you simply toss some apples and pie dough together to make an apple pie.  In reality, there is quite a bit more to the process.

Quote:

Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, N.Y., 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded strange seismic activity on Sept. 11 that has still not been explained.




Not explained?  Bush did it!  Oh wait, too soon.

Quote:

While the aircraft crashes caused minimal earth shaking, significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred at the beginning of each collapse.




That is because the planes slammed into a building, not into the earth.

Quote:

The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake during the 8-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31.




Ah, some more data... and, *gasp*, the two magnitudes are different...  Oh wait, they must have used more explosives on one of the towers than the other.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: Seuss]
    #5604104 - 05/08/06 08:41 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

However, the Palisades seismic record shows that-as the collapses began-a huge seismic "spike" marked the moment the greatest energy went into the ground. The strongest jolts were all registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before the falling debris struck the Earth.




Duh. Exactly what is expected. Remember the support columns we discussed earlier that are securely anchored into the bedrock? The translate load from the building into the ground to hold up the building. As the building collapses, they translate the energy from the collapse into the ground as well. The largest spike in energy would occur as the system overcomes static friction turning into a dynamic event... which happens *gasp* immediately before the building visibily falls.

Quote:

These unexplained "spikes" in the seismic data lend credence to the theory that massive explosions at the base of the towers caused the collapses.




Actually, the opposite is true. The explained spikes and the missing spikes (that would have been caused by explosives) reduce the credence of the explosives theory.

Quote:

A "sharp spike of short duration" is how seismologist Thorne Lay of University of California at Santa Cruz told AFP an underground nuclear explosion appears on a seismograph.




Yep... along with a lot of other things.

Quote:

The two unexplained spikes are more than 20 times the amplitude of the other seismic waves associated with the collapses and occurred in the East-West seismic recording as the buildings began to fall.




Once the support columns failed, they would no longer be able to translate energy into the bedrock.

Quote:

Experts cannot explain why the seismic waves peaked before the towers actually hit the ground.




Yeah, right.

Quote:

Asked about these spikes, seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam, director of Columbia University's Center for Hazards and Risk Research told AFP, "This is an element of current research and discussion. It is still being investigated."




... and why are we asking a seismologist about a building demolition? Do we ask a civil engineer to explain earthquakes? For something like this, they need to be working together...

Quote:

Lerner-Lam told AFP that a 10-fold increase in wave amplitude indicates a 100-fold increase in energy released. These "short-period surface waves," reflect "the interaction between the ground and the building foundation," according to a report from Columbia Earth Institute.




That is what I have been saying...

Quote:

"The seismic effects of the collapses are comparable to the explosions at a gasoline tank farm near Newark on Jan. 7, 1983," the Palisades Seismology Group reported on Sept. 14, 2001.




Bush did it! Oh wait...

Quote:

One of the seismologists, Won-Young Kim, told AFP that the Palisades seismographs register daily underground explosions from a quarry 20 miles away.




Yep, they can also detect large trucks driving down the interstate or a person walking along the ground. I have seen some seismographs that were so sensitive they could detect an ant walking across the sensor... but we need to reinforce the explosives idea, so why not bring it up again...


--------------------
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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: Seuss]
    #5604105 - 05/08/06 08:42 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

These blasts are caused by 80,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and cause local earthquakes between Magnitude 1 and 2. Kim said the 1993 truck-bomb at the WTC did not register on the seismographs because it was "not coupled" to the ground.




Again, what I have been saying...

Quote:

"Only a small fraction of the energy from the collapsing towers was converted into ground motion," Lerner-Lam said. "The ground shaking that resulted from the collapse of the towers was extremely small."




The rest of the energy had to go somewhere...

Quote:

Last November, Lerner-Lam said: "During the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and the neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage-but not causing significant ground shaking."




A good portion also went into heat as metal fatigued and from frictional forces.

Quote:

Evidently, the energy source that shook the ground beneath the towers was many times more powerful than the total potential energy released by the falling mass of the towers. The question is: What was that energy source?




Evidently? Say what? The question is, where is your evident source? Evidently , in this case, means "I made it up", because if I hadn't, then evidently, I would have a factual source rather than an supposedly evident source.

Quote:

While steel is often tested for evidence of explosions, despite numerous eyewitness reports of explosions in the towers, the engineers involved in the FEMA-sponsored building assessment did no such tests.




Eyewitness testimony is inherently inaccurate. Study upon study have illustrated this fact.

Quote:

Dr. W. Gene Corley, who investigated for the government the cause of the fire at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing, headed the FEMA-sponsored engineering assessment of the WTC collapse.




Waco was bad, so Corley must be bad too...

Quote:

Corley told AFP that while some tests had been done on the 80 pieces of steel saved from the site, he said he did not know about tests that show if an explosion had affected the steel.

"I am not a metallurgist," Corley said.




Finally... somebody that knows what they know and what they don't know...

Quote:

Much of the structural steel from the WTC was sold to Alan D. Ratner of Metal Management of Newark, N.J., and the New York-based company Hugo Neu Schnitzer East.




Gotta get rid of the rubble somehow.

Quote:

Ratner, who heads the New Jersey branch of the Chi ca go-based company, sold the WTC steel to overseas companies, reportedly selling more than 50,000 tons of steel to a Shanghai steel company known as Baosteel for $120 per ton. Ratner paid about $70 per ton for the steel.




Yeah, so he made some money, maybe, after shipping costs, etc...

Quote:

Other shipments of steel from the WTC went to India and other Asian ports.

Ratner came to Metal Management after spending years with a metal trading firm known as SimsMetal based out of Sydney, Australia.




Say it isn't so? India AND other Asian ports? *gasp* I'm sold, must have been explosives... I mean, if the scrap steel went to India, then what more is needed?


--------------------
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Offlinegregorio
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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: Seuss]
    #5604298 - 05/08/06 11:14 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

:bowdown:


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OfflineTurn
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Re: Pentagon acknowledges existence of US Government [Re: gregorio]
    #5604326 - 05/08/06 11:28 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks Seuss, that is one hell of a response


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