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InvisiblePoC
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Cube Substrate Preference.
    #3496731 - 12/14/04 01:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have been contemplating what substrate I will use when I finally grow some cubes (hopefully sometime, though I live in CA now so it'll make the task a bit harder w/ shipping issues).

I remember seeing a lot of people having all sorts of complicated mixtures with like coco coir, worm castings, and various enhancers, but don't really see it on here too much anymore (maybe I'm watching the wrong posts now). Anyhow, what is your preference for substrates? Do you like BRF, rye, straw, dung, something else? Just trying to figure out the most efficient way to make the best mushies.


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Offlinericelicker
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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: PoC]
    #3496751 - 12/14/04 01:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The best advice you can follow is to keep reading. There is more than enough info on here for you to get what you need.

Important - Coco coir is non-nutritious. This is only used as a casing layer.

Most people start using BRF and verm and then move up to bird seed, rye or some other grain, then move up to straw and poo.

GL!


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OfflineZeroArmy27
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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: ricelicker]
    #3496771 - 12/14/04 01:20 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

start with the PF tek which is BRF and verm. then grains...


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Invisibledobinky
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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: PoC]
    #3496781 - 12/14/04 01:21 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

If you have a pressure cooker--in my opinion you should go straight to grains (wild bird seed cause its 5 bucks for 40 pounds)

You can have great results no matter which way you choose.


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: dobinky]
    #3497258 - 12/14/04 02:51 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well why would you recommend BRF against other things? I've read pretty much all the stuff in the "Mushroom info" section, and have read lots and lots of posts over the past year and a half, and I see all these methods and I see people trying to say "this way is better than that way" all the time, but often from thread to thread, people say two completely opposite things.

What about all these different fertilizer-type things I see people posting about? I also see people posting with mixtures of 30% this and 10% that...is there any formula that you have all found to be especially effective or any formulas I should avoid? I don't care to hear "Just settle for this method since you're new", I want to find a good formula, and do it. If I fail, I surely won't my second chance.


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: PoC]
    #3497485 - 12/14/04 03:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Can you case with straight coir? Does that present any problems? It's just so cheap compared to all the other casing mediums!


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: PoC]
    #3497513 - 12/14/04 03:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You dont even know what your looking at if your seeing "30% of THAT and 10% of THIS". You expect people to tell you some magic formula about something that you dont even know what was being discussed?

There is no magic formula..there are many different substrates and all have there benifits and drawbacks. Its up to you to find out the benifits and drawbacks and determine your goals and then go with the substrate you like.

The basics:
PF Tek- BRF/verm mixture..different combos are tried..you have to find what you like..if this is what you want people can suggest forumlas. The reasons for choosing this: less likly to contaminate and no PC required..more of a sure thing for newbies.

Whole grains- Many whole grains be it WBS, millet, corn, popcorn, rye, whatever. You can do larger amounts of substrate quicker using this method and produce a good amount of mushrooms. You do need a PC and you need to case them though (PF Tek doesn require making a casing) so its a little more coplicated. You can also mix whole grains. For instance I use mostly rye since I've found it to produce the best flushes of what I've tried and I've consitantly heard that however its expensive and hard to find (1 hour drive each way 2 times every time I get it, once to order and once to pick it up..so 4 hours and 27 dollars later 50 pounds of rye) so I mix in about 10-20% verm (adds air and water but no nutrition, helps if casing not really spanwing) and 25-30% Wild Bird Seed (50 lbs is more like 5 bucks and right down the street). Its all done by eye though and it doesnt matter if the mixtures are off.

Bulk- Straw and poo. Requires you to make spawn first which is something mentioned above fully colonized which can then be mixed into pasturized poo and/or straw. This will give you huge yeilds of mushrooms but is alot of work and more difficult to do correctly and not end up with huge yeilds of green mold instead. Poo can work by itself, so can straw but people use different mixtures (also mixing in some verm for moisture holding airey space) of them together..these are usually the best substrates for yeild but may be way more extreame then you need.

Whole grains is a nice medium...you can produce huge amounts with little work. Its a nice place to start for some if you feel like you can skip the PF Tek. Either way to get to bulk you need to be able to do whole grains so that you can spawn to the bulk.

So "Just settle for this method since you're new"


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3497579 - 12/14/04 03:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yea but what about straight coir scat!


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: spliffmasta]
    #3497695 - 12/14/04 04:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Straight coir as a substrate would be quite poor :smile: It doesnt even make that good of a casing layer without verm.


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3497781 - 12/14/04 04:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Basically it seems no one knows for sure which to use, and people are CONSTANTLY trying new substrates, SO...try the simplest FIRST and move up from there.
Anything that doesn't contaminate is GOOD!


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: Elvish]
    #3497802 - 12/14/04 04:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Scat's got some good advice there. I'd listen to him if I were you bro. If you have a PC or are willing to buy one and some quart jars and tyvek, etc go with grains. You can spawn them to poo and straw later when you got the hang of it. If you don't have a pc or don't want to spend the $ on a good one, go with pf cakes.


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: Elvish]
    #3498015 - 12/14/04 05:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

COMMERCIAL MUSHROOM GROWERS USE COMPOST

They do so because it is the BEST & MOST PRODUCTIVE SUBSTRATE

A COMPOST (made just for CUBES) is the ultimate SUBSTRATE.

Psilocybe Cubensis are habitat specific. Meaning, they cannot grow in the wild, unless their habitat provides a suitable environment, along with sufficient natural nutrients. Over the millennia, they have evolved inherent genetic traits best suited for their continuous survival in specific geographic area?s they successfully inhabit.

All fungi feed by absorption of nutrients. Because of the huge range of potential nutrient sources, fungi evolved enzymes suitable for the specific environments in which they are generally found. The range of enzymes, though wide in may species, is not sufficient for survival in all environments.

Psilocybe Cubensis excrete a complex array of genetically predetermined enzymes for digestion. The enzymes are present in multiple forms, based on a single inherent genetic sequence, and include a range of isoenzymes, which arise from different inherent genetic sequences.

Simply stated, Psilocybe Cubensis excrete enzymes into the organic material in which their underground mycelia (root) system naturally grow. Those enzymes degrade nutrients there, into simple soluble forms of sugars and amino acids, which are then easily absorbed into the mycelia network. Resulting in them acquiring all essential elements with which to grow fruit bodies, and spores (seed) by which they propagate their species.

It is common knowledge that most strains of Psilocybe Cubensis flourish in select warm moist habitats worldwide, associated where horses, cattle and water buffalo naturally spread bovine type manure. Consequently, Psilocybe Cubensis developed inherent genetic traits, enabling then to excrete specific enzymes best suited to enable them to specifically dissolve, digest and take up nutrients available from bovine type manure, and/or soil enriched with it.

Therefore, Psilocybe Cubensis own inherent genetic traits attest that bovine type manure alone, or soils enriched with it, is best suited to their natural nutrient needs. Taking that fact, one step further. Bovine type manure, when aerobically composted together with other select fruits, vegetables, grains and straw provides an even more enriched super nutrient source. Moreover, a compost of this type provides an ideal moist subsurface habitat (substrate) that, Psilocybe Cubensis mycelia will colonize in, faster than any other.

Perfect cube compost (took 2 years to develope)
carbon / nitrogen ratio <17:1, nitrogen 2.6%, phosphorus 0.2-05%, potassium 1.5-2.5%, calcium 1.5-2.5%, available boron <2 ppm, available ammonium <10 ppm, soluble salts 3.0-5 OdS/m.



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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: agar]
    #3498032 - 12/14/04 05:30 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i agree with scat and Elvish...people even use macroni now so go figure, gl all


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3498042 - 12/14/04 05:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

and agar, he knows his stuff,id take his advice , later


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #3498227 - 12/14/04 06:00 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

IGnosticAbhorI said:
and agar, he knows his stuff,id take his advice later




If I were just starting out fresh & had a PC, I would use a WBS (millet based) spawn, spawned into a quasi/synthetic blend of:

Finely chopped ground aged /leached horse manure & presoaked finely chopped wheat straw (less than 1 inch long), fortified with a small percentage of home ground BRF & about 6 to 8% pre/soaked WBS, as a delayed nutrient - source, with a little presoaked verm added -to increase its moisture retention capacity.

Then PC the mix (@ 15 psi 60 - 70 minutes), after it was togather.

That is a simple inexpensive blend, that requires no science, or brain surgery to make. If you can find the ingredients (which isn?t tough, if you are tenacious).


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: agar]
    #3498503 - 12/14/04 06:39 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I agree pf tek but ya could take one colonized brf jar and in the cleanest place possible. do a g2g transfer with WBS as your reciveing grain jars one half pint pf jar should do about four to 5 pints wbs. this way you can extend your myco mass and still have other viable jars to friut if the grain transfer fails. and if it don't you'll have a ass load of spawn or pour and case;)


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: QMK]
    #3501278 - 12/15/04 01:26 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"You dont even know what your looking at if your seeing "30% of THAT and 10% of THIS". You expect people to tell you some magic formula about something that you dont even know what was being discussed?"

I wish you woudn't tell me what I know and don't know. I'm just giving an example that people are using more than one thing to make up their substrates, and saying I've seen people give percentages to indicate how much of what they're using. I appreciate the rest of the information, though.

Agar, thanks for your posts. I have seen some good deals on PCs on e-bay (~$20 for some decent ones), where I had seen pricetags of ~$40+ for new ones. When the time is right, I plan on getting one. I think I might attempt to use some sort of grain and also straw/poo (seperate batches) on my first attempt at cubes. I mean...if I get the PF tek down, great, but then I'd still have to make an attempt at the other types of growing, and that'd be a whole new thing...this way I'll get some experience, and I'm not necessarily looking for success so much as I'm looking to develop good technique that will lead me to grow the best shroomies I can in the future.


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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: PoC]
    #3501662 - 12/15/04 02:32 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I agree the PF Tek is not where to start for everybody..which is why people ended up suggesting grains..you were persistant enough that the PF Tek wasnt where you wanted to start.

Then you say "well what do you mean thats it..just WBS to start with? Theres all these numbers I see everywhere and I dont know what they mean (or I should say what the numbers are so people can tell me where to go if I do understand them) so tell me."....basically. You can't say 30% of this and 10% of that..how do you know 30% of this wasn't verm and 70% of that wasnt coir..thats an excellent casing. Not what you want to start off with as a newbie substrate, since its not a substrate at all. If you don't know what the this and thats were (which you obviously didnt or you would have just put the words in instead of "this" or "that") then you dont know if people use mixes for substrates (let alone what kind), casings, or what.

You have to understand its frustrating to have to answer questions about people wanting to get big in this hobby without having done enough reading to know what the "this"s and "that"s are and use them when they're speaking so we can answer with less of a general answer.

Again..start with some WBS..make a casing of that..even do some poo at the same time but you should try a casing of just whole grains..but anyway you go about it your gonna need to do some grain jars and get them colonized...thats the first step. Then you can decide if you want to case them or spawn them bigger. Agar uses the most detailed mixtures your going to get around also the most complicated. If you have will enough, that will probably give you the best results..but it will take time and work and alot of grain to get there. Get comfortable with grains..they're your friend. Some less complicated bulk substrates are talked about on the board and in the FAQ's that may not give you optimal results of compost set to perfection but will give you incredible results with minimal work..then work your way into a complicated mixture.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3504153 - 12/15/04 05:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said the percentages had anything to do with casing mixtures. It shouldn't be frustrating if you're trying to understand what I'm asking instead of assuming I don't know anything because I put "this" and "that" instead of some actual formula...I've done a lot of reading and just thought people might have recommendations for what kind of things would make up a good substrate that they've tried and had good results with. Agar posted a nice couple of posts indicating a mixture he'd tried, which was exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for posting, nonetheless...you've been a help, for sure.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Cube Substrate Preference. [Re: PoC]
    #3504493 - 12/15/04 06:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah well I'm glad I helped. I can be an asshole sometimes, but I am a helpful one anyway..


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Agar, Brown Rice Flour, Coir, Pressure Cooker, Rye Grain, Vermiculite, Wild Bird Seed

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