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Offlinefireworks_godS
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My Concentrated View On All Of This
    #3496565 - 12/14/04 10:27 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

This is in regards to the recent ban of Swami, and I will start off with a quote of Shroomism:

Quote:

Shroomism said:
trendal is not fabricating anything when he says that many S&P members have stopped posting in this forum altogether because they feel that they cannot express themselves without having their threads and ideas ripped apart. In the 5 years that I have been modding here I have personally received at least 40 PMs by different people on this very subject. People who fear to post their beliefs and thoughts in this forum for fear of being lashed out on and having their character 'cut down to size' as it were.




I am baffled that a person would be banned when they get complaints at a rate of eight per year, when their are countless people posting in S and P who do not wish to see action taken agansit Swami, and not only that, but a majority of active posters have expressed that they are disappointed that Swami was banned. Far more members have praised Swami for playing his necessary part in the S and P experience than the ones who have complained. I do not understand why the administration will cater to such a small, infrequent minority when it alienates and distresses the active majority.

Not only that, but these people that are expressing wishes to have Swami to be banned are suffering apparent social problems, if they have an actual fear of posting thoughts here. Swami obviously isn't responsible for the way others feel, especially since the majority of posters who constantly interface with Swami contend that he is not flaming and that he is not lashing out. It is not the responsibility of every poster in S and P to foster people who have pre-existing neurotic problems. The majority of people posting in Spirituality and Philosophy have grown and matured enough, to the level of adults (as we are all suspossed to be, after all) to be able to not have problems expressing themselves in situations of indirect human contact, and to be able to cope with the fact that others naturally are going to hold different viewpoints and challenge our own. I think it is unfair that we are expected to play a kindergarden version of discussion because we have to cater to the lowest common denominator, which happens to be a vast minority.

Quote:


Personally, I have nothing against Swami. I also see him as a valuable contributor and a good person at heart.. however that does not mean he is above the rules and can belittle the members here.




I have not seen any evidence of Swami belittling members in Spirituality and Philosophy or breaking any rules. The one example that was presented was a clearly objective statement that was not a personal attack of any sort. Swami has never openly flamed anyone, and has shown a consistent level of respect for all posters, even though some might perceive a lack thereof merely because his points disagree with theirs, or because they have an overactive ego constantly imagining threat and attack, projecting more onto his statements than he ever intended or meant.

I find it amazing that people are constricting and controlling the discussion of ideas in a forum that is suspossedly conducive to open, spiritual debate... I find it harsh that we are not allowed to discuss these matters in our own forum, as this issue directly relates to the happenings of our forum. We are a small, personal community, and to seperate discussion of this in our community is simply a control tactic. Our freedom of expression on topics relevant to our forum is being limited and divided. It is proclaimed that spirituality is a very personal thing, and that is why we must allow everyone the space to express it, but others with power who disagree with how certain people express their spirituality and try to teach others spriituality prevent them from doing so.

I find it unbelievable that certain people had to completely disrupt the flow of Spirituality and Philosophy in this manner. Taking that first step of unnecessary control has created chaos in a natural order that was running itself properly. Banning Swami when he did no clear, objective, majority-critisized wrong is an action that belies the very essence of spirituality. It is the equivalent of Shroomism being arrested for drug possession, really. Far more people have acclaimed Swami for directly assisting in their spiritual growth and evolution than those who have bitched and moaned about his inability to allow spiritual discussion (probably the equivalent of an egotistical student who creates an uproar when a fair teacher gave him a deserving, but low, grade on a test).

I have lost a lot of respect for Trendal, I have lost a lot of respect for Shroomism, and if Kaiowas supported the banning of Swami, I have lost even more respect for him (as I personally know him, and such actions would contradict his character). I think it is sad that a whiny minority, with pre-existing emotional and social problems before they ever even interacted with Swami, is being catered to and favored over a majority of interactive posters who love and support the community in which they participate and grow in.

If we are continued to be alienated, I will no longer be able to participate in this community, as what would remain of the community would offer nothing towards the profound benefits it offered before this whole ordeal had to be provoked. Spirituality and Philosophy cannot exist in a space such as what this place inevitably will become if this trend continues...  :frown:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3496608 - 12/14/04 10:38 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:

we're still waiting for examples of Swami's offenses (with links, of course). If there are just sooo many and these are just sooo clearly in volation of rules, then it should not be difficult to pull up a few, no? As of the date of my posting, both Trendal and Shroomism (as well as those who support the ban) have yet to provide anything substantial  and they appear downright hostile when asked to present their case. I guess they are not interested in fairness, transparency, and our respect. Hopefully this is not true.

Quote:

If we are continued to be alienated, I will no longer be able to participate in this community, as what would remain of the community would offer nothing towards the profound benefits it offered before this whole ordeal had to be provoked.




Yes, agreed.

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Invisiblebf6
Keep the highfive alive!

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 3,121
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Vvellum]
    #3496671 - 12/14/04 10:58 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Why was he banned? Specifics please.


--------------------
The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, they're freeing your soul. So, if you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away, but if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth...

bloodflower6

Yay for Pornography!

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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Vvellum]
    #3496683 - 12/14/04 11:01 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

i never had a problem with swami.  finding out about P Cubensis brought me here, S&P kept me here, regardless if i migrated to the pub lately :smile:

there is an ignore button if people find him to abbrasive.

peace


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: bf6]
    #3496700 - 12/14/04 11:05 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bf6 said:
Why was he banned? Specifics please.




Essentially, people with observable problems with fundamental aspects of interacting with others felt emotionally attacked and angry with words that Swami typed, usually because Swami did not directly agree with them, and they felt the need to bitch and moan. Apparently banning a praised member of the community because a small handful of people have troubles with understanding basic thought processes solves the problem.  :rolleyes:

The majority of posters in Spirituality and Philosophy seem to be agansit the banning of Swami. Aren't those the people that count?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Todcasil]
    #3496723 - 12/14/04 11:11 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Todcasil said:
there is an ignore button if people find him to abbrasive.





Exactly. When the problem only lies in the eyes of a small group of people, the ignore button is essential, as the rest of us who have no difficulty seeing clearly do not have to suffer. The ban button should only be used if a poster is actually creating an objectively-perceivable disruptance of the flow of the discussion. Swami has never done that, and does not deserve to be banned.

Perhaps if the majority of the S and P posters saw Swami as a nuisance who is interupting spiritual and philosophical debate, his ban would be necessary, but there is actually a greater percentage of people that directly attribute Swami for greatly helping them learn important spiritual lessons. Swami is not a moron and does not have ill intents - his purpose is clear to those who are open to learning from him.

It is one thing for an individual to not want to read another's words, it is another for them to feel they have the righteousness to take away other's right to read that person's words.  :confused:  :shake:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3496766 - 12/14/04 11:19 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

It is quite simple really. Trendal and shroomism obviously caught the "power tripping" bug that mr.mushrooms used to have. Remember the crap mr.mushrooms caused that forum? Good thing he is gone. Now shroomism and trendal should leave... they obviously are doing a poor job.

Let's also be realistic. Shroomism can't stand swami. Shroomism used to literally preach in that forum about ridiculous stuff. He has been exposed as a fraud and liar. Refusing to hold up bargains, and lying about swami being banned at other websites (he hasn't). Shroomism needs to leave that forum ASAP.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3496846 - 12/14/04 11:32 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

>The majority of posters in Spirituality and Philosophy seem to be agansit the banning of
>Swami. Aren't those the people that count?

First, let me say that I do not post in S&P and as thus didn't actively partake in the moderator discussion about Swami. I am neither for not against the banning, I have no opinion on this subject.

I am good at numbers though and would like to throw in some:

You say the "majority of the posters in s&P seems to be against the banning".

Well, let's look at the thread where the banning has been discussed:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3489534

There were 43 posters in that thread, rougly 38 have expressed their dissapproval of the ban.

In the last 14 days there were 142 distinct posters in S&P.
In the last 30 days there were 198 distinct posters in S&P.
In the last 60 days there were 262 distinct posters in S&P.

The point is, the majority is NOT (at least not actively) against the banning.

My 2 cents.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Anno]
    #3496905 - 12/14/04 11:43 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

LOL, holy shit... Anno... that wasn't a serious post was it? Please say it wasn't.........


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Anno]
    #3496907 - 12/14/04 11:43 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

There were 43 posters in that thread, rougly 38 have expressed their dissapproval of the ban.


What that tells me is that an overwhelming 88 percent of those that cared enough to voice their opinion are against the ban of Swami.

I think you should listen to them.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Anno]
    #3496921 - 12/14/04 11:47 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

My surmise that the majority of the posters were agansit the banning was determined by taking a look at all of the views expressed concerning the banning... I acknowledge that many have not expressed their views on the matter, but I feel that the fact that roughly 38 of 43 posters in a thread exclusively concerning the matter expressed that they were agansit the banning definitely gives some evidence, if not total evidence, that the majority are agansit the banning. It certainly wasn't a scientific analysis, but I think it reflects a common trend.

Also, that's crazy that we've had 262 different people post in S and P in one month... :nut:

One addendum: Is it possible to determine the amount of distinct posters in Spirituality and Philosophy over the past five years, and then compare it to the reported roughly 40 people that have PM'ed Shroomism, complaining about Swami? Even if the amount of people doing such was double that amount, that would only be half of the current amount of active members this month... I imagine that percentage would be rather insignifigant as compared to sixty months.... :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3496976 - 12/14/04 12:04 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I'd also like to point out that when pressed, the moderators either didn't care to, or weren't able to produce any examples of Swami being bad.

How about a new rule. If you don't want people to debate with you, put a note in your opening post saying "opposing viewpoints frighten and confuse me, and I don't want to hear them", and then it's against the rules to debate in that thread.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phluck]
    #3497059 - 12/14/04 12:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
How about a new rule. If you don't want people to debate with you, put a note in your opening post saying "opposing viewpoints frighten and confuse me, and I don't want to hear them", and then it's against the rules to debate in that thread.




Either that, or direct posters who do not wish to have open idea exchange with others, which includes the possibillity that their ideas might be challenged, to the Pub. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497176 - 12/14/04 12:41 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

When at least one of the mods who led the effort to ban Swami have known personal issues with him, I think that's awfully fishy and worth looking into by the admins. Especially considering that, incredibly, we STILL have yet to see any clear evidence that Swami broke any rules! Everything that has been put out so far has been seen as insulting only in the eye of the beholder. Interestingly, those beholders all had personal issues with Swami. S&P is not the place to settle old scores or indulge in personal vendettas. My opinion of this as being a fair place is definitely changing over this.

Before this thing is over, I predict we will also hear of public lies being told to justify Swami's ban as well as the unauthorized reading of PMs. This whole thing stinks to high heaven and hopefully someone who cares about justice will look into this travesty and fix it before people's reputations are further damaged.

Please re-instate Swami and repremand the mods who initiated this ban.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Invisibleeric_the_redS
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497388 - 12/14/04 01:16 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"I have not seen any evidence of Swami belittling members"

i have and i really don't even go in to s&p that often.

i'm not taking sides, just stating a fact. it doesn't matter to me one bit if swami is forced to take a vacation or not. i'm sure the feeling is mutual; a 15 day ban is not a big deal.


--------------------
Anno cock? is that some kind of Greek liqueur? -Geo's All Knowing Sex Slave

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3497406 - 12/14/04 01:21 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

i really don't even go in to s&p that often




--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3497418 - 12/14/04 01:23 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eric_the_red said:
i have and i really don't even go in to s&p that often.





Then you really don't know enough of what goes on in there to form a reality reflecting conclusion on what has been happening, right?

Point out some specific examples so we know exactly what you consider to be belittlement of others, so we can judge for ourselves whether or not your opinion is well justified. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibleeric_the_redS
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: zorbman]
    #3497423 - 12/14/04 01:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

i really don't even go in to s&p that often






but when i do, i notice swami is still there belittling people. the issue was not how often i visit, but what i see when i do visit.

this is just an observation. i don't have anything against swami.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Point out some specific examples




i did have one in mind, because it was a thread i posted in. i can't find it now. i think that thread ended up getting moved or deleted due to flaming.

"Then you really don't know enough of what goes on in there to form a reality reflecting conclusion on what has been happening, right?"

yes, i do. i used to go in s&p often, but tired of it.
i've been here longer than swami. i was here when he first started posting. i know his style of posting and it doesn't bother me personally. if people can't take the heat, they can go elsewhere.


--------------------
Anno cock? is that some kind of Greek liqueur? -Geo's All Knowing Sex Slave

Edited by eric_the_red (12/14/04 01:32 PM)

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3497436 - 12/14/04 01:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I'm still waiting for specific rules violations rather than someone's unsubstantiated opinion of what Swami supposedly intended.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497449 - 12/14/04 01:31 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

What really seems to be at question here is whether you are allowed to question other's beliefs, ideas, explainations, etc. in the S&P forum. This issue is bigger than just Swami.

Is S&P just for stroking each other's egos and congratulating each other on the cool new spiritual philosophy stuff we just cooked up, or is it for meaningful debate to try to arrive at some truth?

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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497458 - 12/14/04 01:34 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Yesterday, I wasn't sure how I felt about Swami's banning. I honestly didn't understand why everyone was making a big deal about it.

But I slept on it and realized that he really wasn't doing any harm there. I've felt that he gets snarky at times, but that's not the same (in my opinion) as belittling someone.

I guess my final view on this is that people could have used the ignore button if he bothered them that much. I mean, that's what it's there for. Based on what I've seen so far, I don't think he deserved a ban. Of course, the mods/admins might have some other evidence that I am not aware of, and in that case I will reevaluate my stance when the time comes.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497461 - 12/14/04 01:34 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

While this website was formed to stop misinformation related to mushrooms, I may have mistakenly believed that it was better than any other website in terms of attitude or whatever. As the Shroomery has gotten bigger, has become much .. worse. I remember when ripper died and Murple left- murple was an asshole to people who were ignorant, but he was one of the most knowledge posters on this website. It was a time when someone left because of poor adminstrative decision- we had decided to spread more information at the cost of devaluing our purpose.

One by one, are we to lose key points of information to keep people happy? I've come to notice that fundamentally stupid people compromise the majority in EVERY large group. But, it's at the shroomery that I've come to see how that correlates relatively with popularity.

I am certain that Swami will not change his posting style- he has no good purpose to. I suggest we concentrate less on expansion issues and more on preserving the quality of the Shroomery.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497469 - 12/14/04 01:35 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Please trust us. I'm sure nobody on the Staff wants to piss you guys off by censoring details. This is a complicated matter, with a long history. Much of the HARD evidence exists only in PRIVATE.

We'd love to give you more detail, and if you are patient, we may just do that...

Let's face it, Swami doesn't troll, he Swami-trolls... 

Swami-trolling is a very subtle, hard to detect, and hard to punish form of trolling.

Swami-Troll: verb: 2004
Definition: To troll subtly over a long period of time until people FUCKIN' SNAP!
"Dude, watch out, you're being Swami-trolled."
"Kevin, let's Swami-troll grandma until she has a stroke."
Swami-trolled, Swami-trolling, Swami-trollery.

Everybody Swami-trolls once in a while... Swami does it all the time.

Most of the time, mods overlook Swami-trolling... but over the course of SEVERAL YEARS, Swami finally made a big enough blip on the radar to be banned... we understand, from your perspective, he has acted this way since he became a Shroomerite. Why on Earth should he be banned now... he's been posting the same way for YEARS? Well, the fact is, we've been asking him to slightly adjust his behavior for YEARS... and he never has. Only NOW, did he get a ban.

Unlike MOST bans, there is no culminating event that constituted Swami's ban. Rather, he was banned so he could discover exactly what we were asking of him.

Swami, also, thumbed his nose at the last STAFF warning he received.

In effect, he Swami-trolled the very mods who were trying to help him avoid banishment. The mods took the bait, because they'd been Swami-trolled ONCE too often... and they banned the hell out of Swami.

You may not like this reasoning, but THAT is your reason.

I'm sorry, details are hard to find... because Swami-trolling is not as SELF CONTAINED as regular trolling... also, some of his actions took place in private.

I hope this helps you all understand the situation better.

I stand behind Swami's ban, but most of you have made VALID points, and there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification from the Staff. You are probably all afraid the SAME thing could happen to you. You shouldn't worry. Swami is the master of Swami-trolling, the rest of us have some work to do to catch up with him... :smirk: Besides, it took YEARS for Swami to be banned for his Swami-trolling.

Please, keep this discussion positive, we are listening... and we have been working on this, behind the scenes, for quite some time. I know, publicly, our actions may seem odd, and detail is scarce, but there is a logic behind our actions, and we do never intend to be SOOOO skimpy on the details.

Thanks,
Cervantes


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/14/04 01:51 PM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #3497492 - 12/14/04 01:39 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
What really seems to be at question here is whether you are allowed to question other's beliefs, ideas, explainations, etc. in the S&P forum.  This issue is bigger than just Swami.




Indeed, Swami is simply the embodiment of this.

While Spirituality and Philosophy isn't hardcore debate complete with complex rules, it does have the general theme of presenting ideas and discussing them in a relaxed, open manner. Everyone plays a part in this in their own way, and questioning and analyzing these ideas is crucial.

It seems the problems occur when individuals enter into this with emotional attachments to their ideas, feeling the need to defend agansit them and force them onto others, or when they will not discuss points with others... they often initate personal issues that do not involve the direct discussion and completely derail the topic....

It certainly isn't Swami that flys off the handle and steps over the line. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497529 - 12/14/04 01:47 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

when faced with a problem, many people choose to give it a new name and then it makes the problem easier to solve. Oh well, this is OK, but xxx-this is horrible and must die!!!!

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497556 - 12/14/04 01:51 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

For one thing, one has to question Swami's intentions for doing exactly what you have described as they pertain to spirituality and philosophy. If you take it at face value, not aware of what results from Swami's method of discussion, it certainly would look less than admirable.

There is a considerable list of people in Spirituality and Philosophy who appreciate Swami and the way he posts, as they have learned a lot of things from his doing so. Valuable lessons and distinctions have been formed through this. A recent thread posted by Swami, Summation Of What I Have Learned, reflects some of this, in both his words and the subsequent posts...

Quote:


Most of the time, mods overlook Swami-trolling... but over the course of SEVERAL YEARS, Swami finally made a big enough blip on the radar to be banned...




If such described Swami-trolling is really that subtle, hard-to-detect, and only can result in a ban after many years of accumulation, perhaps it isn't that much of a big deal? If there aren't single, isolated incidents that are deserving of a ban, why take time and energy to let it build up over five years to finally result in a ban?

I'm sorry, but it still seems to me that there is another variable here that has more to do with this than anything else, and that is of personal, emotional residue, going beyond "Swami-trolling" or anything else....

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497570 - 12/14/04 01:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I agree. The idea of subtle behavior cummulatively resulting in a ban is just ridiculous. By that line of reasoning, luvdemshrooms should have been banned long ago.


--------------------


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: vampirism]
    #3497580 - 12/14/04 01:56 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm... a minute ago, the problem had no name... now that it has a name... the name's the problem?!?

It's true... you can't please all of the people all of the time.


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Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3497582 - 12/14/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

He was... TWICE. :smirk:

There was just considerably less drama surrounding his bannishment.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497594 - 12/14/04 01:59 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
He was... TWICE. :smirk:

There was just considerably less drama surrounding his bannishment.




Does the fact that the reasoning is consistent justify the reasoning itself? :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497602 - 12/14/04 02:00 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I'd like to note just one other point of bias on the part of the mods.

When Shroomism got arrested, a long-lived thread completely off-topic to both Spirituality and Philosophy was not only allowed to stay, but was made sticky when it should have been moved to PAL.

Now, even mentioning the highly-relevant Swami banning instantly creates a locked thread and redirection here where it's quietly out of sight.

And finally, after ~24 hours, we have yet to see a single example of Swami's rule-breaking offences.

Someone sufficiently guilty to be given a FIFTEEN DAY BAN should have done enough 'bad' things to be easily quoted in the act, no?

Edit: It's now been ~72 hours.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/16/04 06:00 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497605 - 12/14/04 02:01 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
It's true... you can't please all of the people all of the time.




You can always please a small but vocal number of people though, right?  :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497609 - 12/14/04 02:01 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Just an observation. In astronomy, for example, thats what they do- they find something a little odd and will give it a name, irrespective of what the problem actually IS, but based on what it looks like.

Up until the point that any evidence is presented, alot of people will not be pleased. Your tactics including handling of information match up perfectly with America's during Iraq. It is clear that Swami will be gone for *some* reason involving mods and PMs.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497617 - 12/14/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

No, it just sets the record straight for Silversoul, a good guy who... this time, made a pointless point.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: vampirism]
    #3497627 - 12/14/04 02:04 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
Up until the point that any evidence is presented, alot of people will not be pleased.  Your tactics including handling of information match up perfectly with America's during Iraq.  It is clear that Swami will be gone for *some* reason involving mods and PMs.




I've often considered plausible parallels to the current status of the American government... somewhat baffling considering the nature of this webiste... of course, that is the way power can be....  :confused:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: vampirism]
    #3497631 - 12/14/04 02:04 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Let me make this clear, I am just providing you all with the INFORMATION you have been requesting for TWO DAYS.

Please, don't shoot the messenger.

I have no jurisdiction over the S&P forum... but I am privy to the events that led up to Swami's banishment.

"Swami-troll" is my term... not an Administrative policy. It was simply the best way I could think of, to explain what happened... as per... like 40 people's request.

I simply can't say more because I didn't make the decision.

Like I said earlier, be patient, and positive... you may get MORE info... but it is not my place to disclose more than what I have already stated. It is simply, not my forum.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/14/04 02:09 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497667 - 12/14/04 02:11 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

It is interesting, however, that no demands have been made of luvdemshrooms to change his posting style, as they are doing with Swami. In fact, I've seen pinksharkmark frequently engage in Swami-like behavior. I don't mind it. In fact, that's a large part of what makes PAL interesting, just as Swami made S&P more worthwhile. The fact that some people cannot recognize the difference between attacks on ideas and attacks on individuals is a sad reflection of this community.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3497707 - 12/14/04 02:18 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Like I said, we ALL do it occasionally (pinky, me... you)... but Swami does it A LOT... and he has been asked for YEARS to stop...

Perhaps, if Swami hadn't blatantly thumbed his nose at his last Private warning, he'd still be here today... I don't know.

BTW, Swami thumbing his nose at a polite warning, was all a mod needed to ban him.

If a mod asked you to stop doing something, and you practically told 'em to "Shove it." Wouldn't you be risking bannishment? This isn't rocket science.

Don't troll the people with the BAN button.

It rarely works in your favor.

It seems... Swami-trolling a mod who is trying to help you, is the type of thing that bumps a ban from 24 hours to 15 days.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497848 - 12/14/04 02:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Please trust us. Much of the HARD evidence exists only in PRIVATE.

See, that is that the sort of thing that actually inspires distrust. It seems like ALL of the evidence is in private, and that looks very shady.

Why doesn't someone just admit, "Hey, we just never liked the guy. We got our feelings hurt and we hit the ban switch. He pushed the envelope but never crossed the line, and we felt had. When we realized we had created a shit storm and were being asked tough questions, we were caught off guard. But we had to save face and stick with our initial call."

To me, that would be a lot more honest than us being asked to trust something that went on in a smoky backroom somewhere. Us peons don't know about that, so all we're left with is guesswork as to why this occured.

Also two questions: 1) Exactly how many times was Swami warned (and when), specifically what was he warned about, and what form did those warnings take (pms, public, rates, etc.)?

2) Under what conditions is it permissable for mods/admins to read the personal email of another member?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497853 - 12/14/04 02:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Surely this is a question of our little community becoming more like the larger community we all exist in which many of us despise for its restrictions and laws? Although I think Swami is just as rigid in his beliefs as those he rails against I still think he is of alot more value to the S&P forum there posting than banned for "subtly annoying people over a period of years."

Out of interest how many times has Swami reported the many, many flames that are directed at him when people take his comments personally or just over react and then actually resort to common abuse, something I have never seen Swami do?

I honestly believe that at heart Swami does have most people in S&P's best interests at heart...his ego may inflate to fill the sky occasionally but whoose doesnt?

I honestly believe this sets a dangerous precedent but is there any chance of the mods admitting they have over reacted or made a mistake? I doubt it, as people in power rarely, if ever admit their mistakes.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: zorbman]
    #3497864 - 12/14/04 02:56 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Zorb... this is simple. Mods aren't allowed to post PM's or discussion from PRIVATE forums.

It is no conspiracy, just against the rules. I can't post more than I did, without permission. I want to remain a Mod. I'm not getting de-modded over THIS.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: GazzBut]
    #3497882 - 12/14/04 03:00 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If you want us to admit our mistakes, you will be disapointed... Mods never fuck up.

But...

If you wish us to re-evaluate the situation :smirk: we're already doing that. In fact, we haven't stopped looking at this situation... since it first made a blip on our radar.

p.s. I agree with practically EVERYTHING you said, EXCEPT for the part about Mods not being perfect.  :wink:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/14/04 03:02 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3497896 - 12/14/04 03:03 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Ah.... the old "well if that's the case what about ***" strategy.

Pretty childish.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497900 - 12/14/04 03:05 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

And you.... interesting that the "man" who said "Until then, I really was concerned with keeping his ban private, or between him and me" has now brought it up twice.

The first time with no prompting, the second with third party prompting.

Thanks for showing the accuracy of my original statement.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3497909 - 12/14/04 03:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Ah.... the old "well if that's the case what about ***" strategy.

Pretty childish.




Do you have an opinion on this subject, or just an opinion about Silversoul's nature?

Warning luvdem, now's not the time (nor is this the thread) to start Swami-trolling... although, thanks for great great example.

Negitivity, off topic posts, thread derailment, provoking someone to argue... these are all examples of Swami-trolling...

And you did it ALL in two scentences. Kudos.

Keep it in pm luv.. or stay on topic. You are not the center of this conversation. Sorry.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/14/04 03:12 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497929 - 12/14/04 03:13 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"mod's never fuck up"





Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah!!!!!


what a fucked up point of view.
that's retarded.




I pray to god you're not that stupid to believe that
since you're a mod


oh and don't troll the mods???
I'm not sure he did
he just told them to fuck off, when he felt his rights were being violated


please go back and put a skirk by that statement "mod's never fuck up"
that sounds like a Senior doobie statement


--------------------
"A politician is like a baby's diaper, it should be changed often and for the same reason"-Coy Turner Sr.

"what is a weed, a plant whose virtues have not yet been discovered"--Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I'm sippin Hennessy, riding on my muthafucking enemies" -Meek Mill.


Edited by joe666 (12/14/04 03:15 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497933 - 12/14/04 03:14 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

:rotfl:

So there was nothing there you could argue with?

That's what I thought.

  Until then, I really was concerned with keeping his ban private, or between him and me. 

And yes, I have an opinion. People need to get a life. And this place needs some new mods.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: joe666]
    #3497936 - 12/14/04 03:15 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Joe, sorry, that was sarcasm... pretty OBVIOUS sarcasm IMO. Next time, I'll use more emoticons. :tongue:


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497941 - 12/14/04 03:15 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

thank you kind sir


--------------------
"A politician is like a baby's diaper, it should be changed often and for the same reason"-Coy Turner Sr.

"what is a weed, a plant whose virtues have not yet been discovered"--Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I'm sippin Hennessy, riding on my muthafucking enemies" -Meek Mill.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: joe666]
    #3497975 - 12/14/04 03:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

No problem.

Sorry about the confusion. See? I make mistakes.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Anno]
    #3498057 - 12/14/04 03:34 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Well, let's look at the thread where the banning has been discussed:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3489534

There were 43 posters in that thread, rougly 38 have expressed their dissapproval of the ban.

In the last 14 days there were 142 distinct posters in S&P.
In the last 30 days there were 198 distinct posters in S&P.
In the last 60 days there were 262 distinct posters in S&P.

The point is, the majority is NOT (at least not actively) against the banning.


C'mon Anno, give me a break:

In statistical analysis, it is usually not possible to sample an entire population, so a subset of the population is sampled instead. In this case, the people who expressed their views in the thread are the *perfect* subsample from which to draw a statistical conclusion because they're clearly the only ones with sufficient interest to post in the first place.

So, despite what you're trying to imply, the 38 out of 43 distinct posters to the thread is more than enough statistical evidence to extrapolate the will of the community.

You're a smart guy, so I know you know this. It makes me wonder why you're defending the mods when they've clearly made a mistake. Saving face is not a good reason to continue compounding mistakes.

When I fuck up, I own up to it. It's time the mods did the same.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/14/04 05:14 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3498093 - 12/14/04 03:39 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Swami broke the rules. SEVERAL times.

Anno's math does seem fuzzy... but give him a break... the Administration is SUPPOSED to publicly support all STAFF decisions (or say nothing). Asking us to admit our mistakes is hard. We almost have to break our own rules to do it.

Fucked up huh?

This will work itself out. Be patient. Be positive.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3498171 - 12/14/04 03:51 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
despite what you're trying to imply, the 38 out of 43 distinct posters to the thread is more than enough statistical evidence to extrapolate the will of the community


While the trend definitely seems to be well defined from those who have expressed their opinions, it is often those that are unhappy who are quickest to voice their dissatisfaction on a matter.


Quote:

Diploid said:
It makes me wonder why you're defending the mods when they've clearly made a mistake.


I really don't think any dire mistakes have been made. This situation is currently under review and being actively analyzed by both myself and the entire staff in the mod forum. Perhaps the ban duration was a bit lengthy for the message we are trying to get across, perhaps it will be shortened, but I can tell you this for certain; It will not be lifted entirely. Swami has been brought to the administration's consideration many times over the past many years. Eventually, there is a breaking point where we must make a move to encourage the desired response when all alternate efforts at compromise have been exhausted. In this case, the desired response is for Swami to heed the countless requests/warnings that he has been sent by various Staff members over the years and begin to post with some more tact and respect for another person's beliefs. He needn't restrain himself from defending his own beliefs, but to post simply to pick apart and bash someone else's beliefs is not conducive to well-rounded and inviting discussion.

In short, this was in large part a subjective decision based upon circumstantial evidence from a very long time span, coupled with a very clear final warning PM from one of our moderators, which was ultimately ignored. The ban is an effort to lend credibility to the warning PM and hopefully encourage more thoughtful and tolerant discussion in the future by this particular user. Keep up the discussion.. we are listening.


--------------------

--------------------
··∙   long live the shroomery  ∙··
...π╥ ╥π...

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3498235 - 12/14/04 04:01 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

but when i do, i notice swami is still there belittling people.

Then it should be a simple matter for you to find *ONE* such post.

i did have one in mind, because it was a thread i posted in. i can't find it now.

Very convenient. How about all the others that must exist given your statement above:

Quote:

notice swami is still there belittling people




Eh?

i've been here longer than swami.

I don't know you, so I don't know if you've been here a long time under another name, but your current name Regged in February '03, Swami regged in January '00. That's ~3 years longer than you.

And most of what time you have spent here you spent in OTD, not S&P.

this is just an observation. i don't have anything against

Ditto.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/14/04 09:46 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: geokills]
    #3498245 - 12/14/04 04:02 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

it is often those that are unhappy who are quickest to voice their dissatisfaction on a matter.

Yes, and according to Anno's stats, that's 5 unhappy posters out of all S&P.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498257 - 12/14/04 04:04 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Swami broke the rules. SEVERAL times.

Examples, please?

They should be easy to find, no?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleEdame
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Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498280 - 12/14/04 04:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Please trust us. I'm sure nobody on the Staff wants to piss you guys off by censoring details. This is a complicated matter, with a long history. Much of the HARD evidence exists only in PRIVATE.

We'd love to give you more detail, and if you are patient, we may just do that...

Let's face it, Swami doesn't troll, he Swami-trolls... 

Swami-trolling is a very subtle, hard to detect, and hard to punish form of trolling.

Swami-Troll: verb: 2004
Definition: To troll subtly over a long period of time until people FUCKIN' SNAP!
"Dude, watch out, you're being Swami-trolled."
"Kevin, let's Swami-troll grandma until she has a stroke."
Swami-trolled, Swami-trolling, Swami-trollery.

Everybody Swami-trolls once in a while... Swami does it all the time.

Most of the time, mods overlook Swami-trolling... but over the course of SEVERAL YEARS, Swami finally made a big enough blip on the radar to be banned... we understand, from your perspective, he has acted this way since he became a Shroomerite. Why on Earth should he be banned now... he's been posting the same way for YEARS? Well, the fact is, we've been asking him to slightly adjust his behavior for YEARS... and he never has. Only NOW, did he get a ban.

Unlike MOST bans, there is no culminating event that constituted Swami's ban. Rather, he was banned so he could discover exactly what we were asking of him.

Swami, also, thumbed his nose at the last STAFF warning he received.

In effect, he Swami-trolled the very mods who were trying to help him avoid banishment. The mods took the bait, because they'd been Swami-trolled ONCE too often... and they banned the hell out of Swami.

You may not like this reasoning, but THAT is your reason.

I'm sorry, details are hard to find... because Swami-trolling is not as SELF CONTAINED as regular trolling... also, some of his actions took place in private.

I hope this helps you all understand the situation better.

I stand behind Swami's ban, but most of you have made VALID points, and there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification from the Staff. You are probably all afraid the SAME thing could happen to you. You shouldn't worry. Swami is the master of Swami-trolling, the rest of us have some work to do to catch up with him... :smirk: Besides, it took YEARS for Swami to be banned for his Swami-trolling.

Please, keep this discussion positive, we are listening... and we have been working on this, behind the scenes, for quite some time. I know, publicly, our actions may seem odd, and detail is scarce, but there is a logic behind our actions, and we do never intend to be SOOOO skimpy on the details.

Thanks,
Cervantes




Can I call this "cervantes-bullshitting"?  It'd be kind of like regular bullshitting but ever so much more subtle-like. It might be hard for some of you detect cervantes-bullshitting, the wind direction can be a factor, but trust me, the signs are there.  I figure if I keep repeating "cervantes-bullshitting" about another 12 or 13 times in this one post you might all forget that I'm not really saying anything substantial and just remember the phrase "cervantes-bullshitting".  Feel free to drop it into your everyday forum lexicon.

I have to agree with most of the others supporting swami, I've seen nothing but vague ethereal hints at some larger dark menace that only people 'in the know' can really see.  Although we can't actually be shown this elusive swami-trolling, it has slowly tainted these public forums for years like dark-matter.  I can totally see how people should just accept this on trust, National Security and all that.

Maybe the mods should post some more user-name cliches ("holy shit you totally edamed my car!") so we can all note each others' habits and behaviours and decide what we like and what we don't. Why stop the personality modification at just one person?  Maybe you could implement a user time-limit that gives you 3 years to become a universally loved non-asshole or you're out?  At the end of the 3 years the users with the red flashing hand-crystals can be judged in a 'am-i-banned-or-not' personality contest.

Why should the mods have all the fun?  Where's the community spirit?!
:nut:

No offence intended Cervantes, but I thought that was a feeble explanation.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

Edited by Edame (12/14/04 04:22 PM)

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498300 - 12/14/04 04:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

First of all, since we are not being let in on the actual reason for the ban, all I can do is draw conclusions based upon what I perceive. If I am wrong, I am no more guilty than those who supported a ban based upon their own perceptions of Swami's words. I want to be clear that I am not coming from an angry place here- I just don't like injustice and I think Swami is being railroaded based upon what I have seen so far. If my questions are answered satisfactorily I expect my opinion may change.

This is a complicated matter, with a long history. Much of the HARD evidence exists only in PRIVATE.

Translation: It doesn't exist.

We'd love to give you more detail, and if you are patient we may do just that...

Delaying tactics while someone tries to dredge something up? If it had been discussed in detail, the facts would already have been put together.

Most of the time, mods overlook Swami-trolling...but over the course of SEVERAL YEARS,

Translation: No rule was broken.

Swami finally made a big enough blip on the radar to be banned...

STILL no specific "blip" defined. Because there is none?

Well, the fact is, we've been asking him to slightly adjust his behavior for YEARS...and he never has.

Since you failed to answer my question about how many times/what form/when these warnings supposedly occured we are left to speculate. And the one who can answer the question about these "warnings" has been bound, gagged and locked up for 15 days.

Unlike MOST bans, there is no culminating event that constituted Swami's ban.

PRECISELY. The truth comes out.

Rather he was banned so he could discover exactly what we were asking of him.

Which was what exactly?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498306 - 12/14/04 04:13 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Much of the HARD evidence exists only in PRIVATE.

Wait a minute.

What are you talking about?

I thought this was about Swami's *** PUBLIC *** postings where he 'repeatedly' broke the rules.

How can the evidence be private?

Is this about Swami's PMs? Are there S&P rules governing private PMs?

I'm confused. How can relevant evidence be private?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498318 - 12/14/04 04:16 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Swami broke the rules. SEVERAL times.



Could you please cite which rules he broke and some specific instances of him breaking them? Thanks.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498339 - 12/14/04 04:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Well, the fact is, we've been asking him to slightly adjust his behavior for YEARS... and he never has. Only NOW, did he get a ban.

Look, let's cut to the chase.

Do you really believe for one second that after the ban Swami will 'adjust his posting style' whatever the hell that means?

If you don't beleive he will, and I know you don't, then is it a froegone conclusion that he will subsequently be permabanned?

This seems a given since the 'lesson' you're arrogantly trying to teach him is not going to be accepted.


==


So, a direct question to the mods and admins:

If Swami, post-ban, refuses to censor his style in any way, will he be permabanned?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

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Posts: 3,849
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3498442 - 12/14/04 04:32 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I wish the mods could step back and look at the double-speak that is flowing from their fingers. The fact that it has required 5-6 of them to all join in on the fight to make their non-existent points shows a real lack of credibility and desperation. We are LAUGHING at the nonsense of the whole lot of you. Put your tail between your legs and admit you were wrong.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498450 - 12/14/04 04:32 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

BTW, Swami thumbing his nose at a polite warning, was all a mod needed to ban him.

If a mod asked you to stop doing something, and you practically told 'em to "Shove it." Wouldn't you be risking bannishment? This isn't rocket science.


Be careful!

I would be willing to bet that Swami did no such thing as 'thumbing his nose' or telling anyone to 'shove it' and I'm pretty sure that Swami, given his style, will be more than happy to post his outgoing PMs publicly once his ban is lifted.

Don't make yourself look silly after the fact.

Just some advice for whatever it's worth...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498480 - 12/14/04 04:36 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

My thoughts...Remove the ban man, damn.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3498545 - 12/14/04 04:47 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Much of the HARD evidence exists only in PRIVATE.

Wait a minute.

What are you talking about?

I thought this was about Swami's *** PUBLIC *** postings where he 'repeatedly' broke the rules.

How can the evidence be private?

Is this about Swami's PMs? Are there S&P rules governing private PMs?

I'm confused. How can relevant evidence be private?





I am confused as well.

Seems to me the mods and admins are just coming up more and more excuses that grow lamer by the hour.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: looner2]
    #3498548 - 12/14/04 04:47 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I wish the mods could step back and look at the double-speak that is flowing from their fingers. The fact that it has required 5-6 of them to all join in on the fight to make their non-existent points shows a real lack of credibility and desperation. We are LAUGHING at the nonsense of the whole lot of you. Put your tail between your legs and admit you were wrong.




:thumbup:

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InvisibleJellric
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Vvellum]
    #3498563 - 12/14/04 04:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Seems to me the mods and admins are just coming up more and more excuses that grow lamer by the hour.

If this was a fight it would have been stopped by now.

Seems time for a compromise to restore the peace.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: geokills]
    #3498604 - 12/14/04 04:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Keep up the discussion.. we are listening.




I really hope this is true, but I do not think it is. I think your words are a false politeness. I have [once again] lost respect for the moderators and administration, particularly those who initiated and supported Swami's bogus banning. I think I speak for many when I say the moderator ranks need new blood - there are some absurd abuses going on 'round here. Personally, I think Trendal and Shroomism should step down, preferably by resignation.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Jellric]
    #3498617 - 12/14/04 04:56 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I'm all for peace as soon as Swami is unbanned and Trendal and Shroomism apologize and/or step down.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Jellric]
    #3498622 - 12/14/04 04:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

This is reminding me of Bush's war more and more

He made a reason, but then when it was questioned and found to be false, he changed it to something more vague and supportable. Then it was continued to be questioned, so he made up new ones, until by the end his reasons for going to Iraq were completely different from the reasons at the beginning

And just like that one I bet there is some personal issues here that the mods are dealing with by banning Swami

If the evidence is on S&P to support a 15 day ban, there should be a post of it, accumulated to at least shut up the dissident protesters. If there is no evidence on S&P, then where is it?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Invisibleeric_the_redS
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3498632 - 12/14/04 04:59 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
This it should be a simple matter for you to find *ONE* such post.
Very convenient. How about all the others that must exist given your statement above:




i don't care enough about this issue to dig for any posts. considering what cervantes said, the thread i had in mind may be in the mod or admin forum.

Quote:

I dunno you, so I dunno if you've been here a long time under another name, but your current name Regged in February '03, Swami regged in January '00. That's ~3 years longer than you.




i know when swami registered. my growlog puppet was regged in '99 and i made that over a year after i first registered. :wink:


Quote:

And most what time you have spent here you spent in OTD, not S&P.




what makes you think you know where i spend/have spent my time on this site?
before i asked moe to ban my previous name and switched over to eric_the_red, i spent very little time in otd and probably had less than 10 posts in otd.

not that it matters, but if your reg date is your original, i would be willing to bet a large sum of money that i have spent more hours in s&p over the years than you have, even though i haven't visited it much (and have posted next to nothing) in the last two years.


--------------------
Anno cock? is that some kind of Greek liqueur? -Geo's All Knowing Sex Slave

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OfflineKremlin
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Vvellum]
    #3498646 - 12/14/04 05:01 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

(not directed at you bi0, just what i clicked)

everyone is so quick to turn against the administration on this site. Something happens and then its a flurry of "I've really lost all respect for [insert person/position] this time guys". Im not dissapointed in the administration, im dissapointed in the membership. What does your respect mean in the first place if you are always so quick to take it away? Then it becomes a bargaining piece, not respect. And i love all this "I'm leaving if he leaves" discussion, thats so childish.

There is no large conspiracy at play here, they made a decision that they felt was warranted based on information that they are privy to as administrators and moderators. They said they are open to the fact of reducing the ban time.

It sounds like a pack of wolves in here. Any large organization needs some kind of centralized administration, and there will always be those who just hate having people above them.


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ravus]
    #3498647 - 12/14/04 05:01 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3498679 - 12/14/04 05:05 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What does your respect mean in the first place if you are always so quick to take it away?




See, I've been around these forums since the Lycaeum days (1998 or so). I consider the Shrommery to be a home of mine, so when abuses such as these occur, I am that much more enraged. Why? Because I care about this place. Actions such as these (and the lame excuses and rationalizations that have followed) threaten my community. When bad shit goes down, we must take a stand.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498689 - 12/14/04 05:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Mods aren't allowed to post PM's or discussion from PRIVATE forums.

It is no conspiracy, just against the rules. I can't post more than I did, without permission.


If all the mods and admins agree, then their is no reason for their discussions re Swami not to be made public. If they do not agree to make their discussion public, then what are they hiding?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498698 - 12/14/04 05:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If you want us to admit our mistakes, you will be disapointed... Mods never fuck up.

This comment was made in jest. That it's been mistaken as a sincere post is telling. :syringe:

Edited by Diploid (12/16/04 12:25 AM)

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OfflineNomad
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3498699 - 12/14/04 05:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Any large organization needs some kind of centralized administration, and there will always be those who just hate having people above them.

Fuck that.

I wonder how such a complete misdecision is possible in the first place?

It is obvious in an almost ridiculous way that you cannot just ban Swami and go ahead as if nothing happened. That this would cause a wave of dissent from S&P is so damn clear that the internals of the Shroomery really start to mystify me. I mean, is there no fucking communication taking place between the admins and the mods? The S&P mods should be aware of the dynamics in that place, and be able to give out a warning to the admins if they engage in such a blatant error.

Is ass-licking all there really is?

I disagree with Swami on almost any issue, except that banana cake with nuts is tasty. But the guy is a defining factor of S&P, and you cannot just pluck the thorns from a rose and expect it to survive. The whole style of S&P was influenced by him, from the subtle, like humor, to the not-so-subtle, like the famous reading-comprehension-problem insult, a real classic. If I remember it correctly, even the quoting style which is used by me and a lot of other people, where you copy & paste the part you reply to and bold it out, was invented by Swami - that was before the time the billboard system had an official quoting option.

One would expect that such a long-standing member gets an award, not a ban.

The issue is not that the ban is temporary. If I were Swami, I would be so pissed off that I would not return. Goddamn, I'm not Swami and I'm so pissed off that I will leave. In that, I follow the example of another S&P regular who already took his hat.

Anyway, it's been a pleasure. Farewell.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3498718 - 12/14/04 05:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

id like to jump in and say, although the ban may be a bit on the harsh side, this isnt some kind of personal vengeance or persecution against swami.

There ARE several clearly stated rules for S&P posting, and i have clearly seen swami break many of them.

In at least one recent thread he reduced himself to ad hominem attacks, calling someone and there ideas "moronic" and then when called on that said he should be able to call things as they are, even if that means blatant insults.

Personally i find it kind of sad that someone as old as my father cant find ways to disagree without resorting to words like moron.

Hes made a number of TOTALLY off topic posts here, which shouldnt result in a ban but it is kind of strange .

Hes started a number of threads for the specific and obvious purpose of baiting others. Sometimes he makes a transparent attempt to cover up the baiting with some vaguelyphilosophical point but to me at least its clearly baiting.

Aside from those direct rule violations he often annoyed me (not that thats a reason for banning obviously) by repeatedly breaking the etiquette rules as outlined in the "how not to talk" sticky thread, Re: nitpicking, for one, and disapearing or going silent whenever his points are under fire.

I always had the strong sense that the guy had a total lack of interest in learning OR teaching. Youll never hear him say "thats interesting ill have to think about that" or "i never saw it that way"

in fact i dont recall ever hearing a positive comment come out of his mouth, but he sure as hell tears apart the tiniest 'flaw' , sometimes reducing himself to bitching about someones grammar or punctuation when he cant find anything else to grab on to.

He was extrememly hypocritical when it came to his own discussion rules. hed jump all over you for not citing sources, or using anecdotal evidence, etc, but he CONSTANTLY used 'recent examples' from his own life (anecdotal evidence) to prove his points, and the worst one i remember was when i asked him to cite a source on something he said and he went off about how it wasnt his responsibility and i should use google.

Id said the EXACT same thing to him on NUMEROUS occasions that he demanded "source and link"

for all that though, i think the place was much better WITH swami than without him.

I think a temporary ban is a good idea. For one thing the guy clearly spends ungodly amounts of time here, and maybe this will give him the motivation to go get some fresh air.

But more to the point im hoping that When he comes back (and i do hope he DOES come back) he will be a bit more respectfull towards the forum rules and the other members.

now all yall should get your panties straightend out, take a deep breath and go back to business as usual. you can survive without swami for 2 weeks.

go smoke a bowl


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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Invisibleeric_the_redS
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3498729 - 12/14/04 05:13 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kremlin said:
There is no large conspiracy at play here




exactly.

everyone should keep in mind that the admins own the site. if they wanted swami gone, all they have to do is hit the "delete user" button, maybe send him a "screw you and goodbye" pm or something first.

they have the power and every right to do this any time they feel like doing so. they haven't done this.

they have no need for secret conspiracies.


--------------------
Anno cock? is that some kind of Greek liqueur? -Geo's All Knowing Sex Slave

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3498751 - 12/14/04 05:16 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Haha the administrators of this website hand pick their mods to enforce the rules of this website however they see fit. Questioning the mods is effectively questioning the administrators judgement.

People who keep making these threads are just crying over spilled milk.Hes banned hes banned. He will be back in 15 days. Quit crying over something so trivial.

If the mods ban him than they probably had a good reason. People just dont get banned for nothing.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3498764 - 12/14/04 05:18 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Swami broke the rules. SEVERAL times.

This is, I think, the seventh time I ask this:

Please provide a link to ONE post where Swami broke a rule.

the Administration is SUPPOSED to publicly support all STAFF decisions

Even when they're wrong? This says a lot about the administration.

This will work itself out. Be patient.

It's been ~24 hours. How long does it take to dig up evidence of Swami's rule breaking?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineKremlin
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Nomad]
    #3498784 - 12/14/04 05:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

i understand what you are saying

but is a wave of dissent from S&P reason not to do anything that might upset S&P? Regardless of that, the admins had communicated with swami about his posting habits, and he apparently blew them off. That is up to the judgement of the admins, but i for one trust them.

I lurk in S&P, and i agree that he did bring some very interesting ideas and sharp logic to the forum, but he could have been more tactful in how he delivered it. Saying that swami is not responsible for how people take his words is absurd..we live in the real world, and you must be accountable for your actions and words. There is always a more tactful way to phrase things.

The ban is only temporary, they are open to the ideas of reducing his ban. If everyone keeps this topic from deteriorating into "FUCK THE ADMINS, THEY SCREWED US", maybe something will come of the discussion?


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3498853 - 12/14/04 05:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Swami is going to just ADORE all this attention and ramble that went on while he was paralyzed from the Shroomery boards :wink:


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3498933 - 12/14/04 05:38 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

exactly.

everyone should keep in mind that the admins own the site. if they wanted swami gone, all they have to do is hit the "delete user" button, maybe send him a "screw you and goodbye" pm or something first.

they have the power and every right to do this any time they feel like doing so. they haven't done this.

they have no need for secret conspiracies.




You seem to forget that the Shroomery is a business and members are customers (via sponsors who pay $200+ per month to display their banners). The admins must respect the customers or they will be out of business.

As for conspiracies, I am not sure what you speak of. Who said anything about a conspiracy? I think basically Trendal and Shroomism made a bad call and refuse to admit it to the point of lame excuses. To maintain stability, the administration and the other mods are either playing the excuses game or refusing to publicly denouce the banning. Not sure what you mean by a conspiracy; I think it's just a case of poor judgement motivated by ego and personal grudges being backed up by "saving face" and maintaining stability on part of the admin.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: geokills]
    #3498944 - 12/14/04 05:39 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

In this case, the desired response is for Swami to heed the countless requests/warnings that he has been sent by various Staff members over the years and begin to post with some more tact and respect for another person's beliefs.

Geo, please provide a link to where Swami was disrespectful of another person's beliefs.

Swami's terse, gruff and direct style of communication is not disrespect. The disrespect is entirely in the imagination of the whiny tattle-tale whose beliefs have been shown to be lacking.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3498978 - 12/14/04 05:44 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

yes, I would like to remind the moderators and administration that there is such a thing as the ignore user function built into these boards. As far as I can tell, Swami never flamed anyone, he simply was tough in his language and debating style. If there were no flames, then those who were supposed offended must be self-responsible and use the ignore function.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3498995 - 12/14/04 05:46 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

i don't care enough about this issue to dig for any posts.

Then WTF exactly are you doing here?

considering what cervantes said, the thread i had in mind may be in the mod or admin forum.

Translation: I have no evidence whatsoever that Swami broke any rules. Never mind that I said he did anyway.

what makes you think you know where i spend/have spent my time on this site?

Uhm, this?

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/percent.php?who=110594

Look, let's get back on-topic. You said Swami broke the rules. You cannot provide evidence that Swami broke the rules. :syringe:

What part am I missing?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Vvellum]
    #3498996 - 12/14/04 05:46 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Why? Because I care about this place. Actions such as these (and the lame excuses and rationalizations that have followed) threaten my community




This isn't your community. Community belongs to the community. Get that straight first.

Also if we are taking into account time and dedication to this site, I've been here in various forms since early '99 also and have been serving as a moderator for almost 5 years. We don't get paid to do this job serving the community and we don't get a power trip out of it either. I don't recall anyone ever thanking me for spending hours of my time late at night when I have work in the morning moving threads to the dump because some asshole puppet decides to flood the boards. I don't recall ever getting thanked for many of the duties that we routinely perform to make sure the community is running fluid and peacefully.. as we are nominated by the community to do. It's expected of us. But when you do something someone doesn't agree with, it's automatically time to scream bloody murder and demand that they step down huh? I must just be on some crazy power trip and not care about this community at all right? This community which is literally the center of my internet universe..this community which I've met many shroomerites in "real life" and consider my good friends.. I care about this place just as much as you do.

No, I think that some of you may be over-reacting, just a little bit. There's been some vicious words directed at the moderators and admins in this thread and others, and I don't think it's fair. I can't speak for all the other moderators, but I serve as one with the best interest of the community at heart, and I am pretty sure my fellow mods feel the same way.

Perhaps Swami didn't deserve a 15 day ban.. that may be a little overboard.
But the information presented and a culmination of events is what led to his ban in the first place. Just to name a few: intentionally derailing threads, "character assassination" or twisting words and context of sentences to make posters appear foolish, numerous PMs of valuable individuals of the S&P community who felt they could not post freely without feeling attacked countless warning of the staff to 'mellow' this agressive behaviour and his refusal to stop. Swami was given more chances than just about any "regular" member would ever get.

If you think I have some personal vendetta against him because of our past history, I can see how you would think that, but it isn't the case. I actually like Swami, regardless of whether any of you believe that or not.. he was a valuable contributor to the community at times but at others he appeared to MANY to be a menacing bully. He intimidated enough people that they didn't even feel comfortable posting in S&P at all.. and you may say good riddance, if they can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen.. but I disagree. I think of course there needs to be a "skeptical balance" especially in a forum like S&P, but when it gets to the point of people feeling like they cannot even express their ideas and beliefs without feeling attacked and having their posts ripped apart and every possible logical phallacy pointed out and exprapolated upon thus becoming the focus of attention.. it becomes something else entirely. It defeats the purpose of constructive debate and instead turns into someone just defending their character.

Now this is just the tip of the iceberg. Swami has been the center of a lot of controversy in the past and this is no exception. Personally, I really enjoy Swami on his good days.. I find his presence to be uplifting and he provides a key balance to the forums.. however when he shifts to "swami trolling" as Cervantes put it.. feelings are hurt and then they are laughed at for being emotional. This is, in a nutshell..the reason why he was banned. Although I'm sure that won't be enough for you. For now my time is up, since I have to follow this drama on the public library.

I just hope you all will approach this in a more objective and pro-active manner, instead of the malicious way it is being handled. So that we can all reach a common understanding instead of ... this way.

Peace


--------------------

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OfflineKremlin
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3499003 - 12/14/04 05:47 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami's terse, gruff and direct style of communication is not disrespect. The disrespect is entirely in the imagination of the whiny tattle-tale whose beliefs have been shown to be lacking.




Beliefs are beliefs, and science is not the dominating king of reason in all aspects of life. We are in a scientific paradigm currently, yes, but a paradigm is just a set of theories to guide modern thought, it doesnt have to be that way.

If i remember correclty, there is no sound argument that ends in the closed circuit of physicality, which would mean that science has to give way to something else in order to be sound.

As has been discussed before, Spirituality and Philosophy is a forum for the sharing of ideas spiritual and philosophical discussion, the two dont always necessarily mix.

If people want to post their personal spiritual beliefs, they should be able to without having a group of science trollers making them look like fools. Tolerance of other's opinions is key to harmony.


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3499036 - 12/14/04 05:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

fireworks_god,

First I want to thank you for remaining calm and logical throughout all this, as well as everyone else who's kept their cool. Though, I would expect that from you :wink:

Second, I just want to re-post my original explanation for his ban, and say that I stand by what I said:
Quote:


Well first off, Swami was not banned for the ideas or the viewpoint which he expressed in this forum. If that were the case, there would be a lot of others here ("skeptics", myself included) who would have to be banned. The funny thing is, I actually agree with Swami most of the time.

Swami was not banned for his viewpoint, he was banned for how he expressed his viewpoint. There are many others here who express the same general viewpoint, that of a skeptic, but who do so with much more tact and eloquence. Also know that this decision was not made in a vacuume. It was discussed among not only us S&P mods, but among the Admin and rest of the moderator staff. The final decision, after I spoke to Swami via PM, was to ban him for 15 days. At the end of this time he can return and, if he wishes to stay, change his posting style. Again, this is not about free-speech. There are MANY other people here who express the same general ideas as Swami.

Spirituality is an incredibly personal topic for most people. In the end, it is something we must all approach on our own, and only after we begin to come to a true understanding of our own spirituality can we begin to approach that of others. Because of this we all tend to have our own way of expressing, in words, what spirituality means to us. This leads to miscommunications quite often, which isn't a problem provided the two parties can either come together and discuss their ideas, or leave them unsaid (agreeing to disagree). There is no room for petty name-calling in these discussions, yet this is what Swami has reduced himself to.

Instead of proving his own viewpoint, Swami only tried to knock down others (not necessarily bad) and do so by insulting them or making them feel stupid (necessarily bad). The path to learning is not through insult and slight. People, in general, do not listen to what you say when you say when you say it with obvious intent to anger, hurt, or insult. Swami liked to use the excuse that he couldn't be held accountible for the way others interpreted his words. It's a weak excuse, and when I called him on it, in public, last week he became quite silent. Of course Swami knew how his words COULD be interpreted. Swami is not an idiot. In fact, he is quite intelligent. He knows the English language quite well. He knows how to use it quite well, which means he would have SOME idea of how his words/wording could be interpreted. When I confronted him on this, in private, he didn't deny it. What it comes down to is that Swami knew his words were hurtful/hateful, and chose to continue posting that way. He is now paying the consequences for that action. He knew what those consequences were, long ago, because he has been warned about his posting on more than one occaision by more than one moderator.

I do not think we are limiting free-speech in this forum by banning Swami. On the contrary, I think that by having Swami here and posting as he has been we have alowed free-speech to be stifled. It is not a crime to make a mistake, and certainly not a crime to make a mistake in a post. By making people feel stupid and insulting them for the mistakes they may make in their posts/ideas, Swami was working towards having people just not post their ideas for fear that they will be torn apart by Swami. This is not acceptible.





As for specific examples. I do not have a list of specific examples. First because I never made one to begin with. Second because my reasons were not due to about specific posts. It is a general trend of Swami, not specific posts. You will not find any posts from Swami saying "fuck you, you suck" because that's not the kind of person he is. He doesn't have to stoop to saying it that way. He is very intelligent, and obviously has a strong command of the English language. His wit and humour are good evidence of this.

I want to also say that your posts about this have made me re-think my decision and the reasoning behind it, several times. I have arrived at the same conclusion.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3499041 - 12/14/04 05:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

What does your respect mean in the first place if you are always so quick to take it away?

Respect is earned and kept though your actions; it's not automatic.

In this case, the secrecy surrounding the 'evidence' which by the mods' own admission is in the public record of Swami's posts, is what has undermined that respect.

There is no large conspiracy at play here,

Perhaps not, but then, why the secrecy? Saving face is part and parcel of a conspiracy in my book, and a lie of omission is still a lie.

I dunno that's what happening here since the discussion is being held behind closed doors, but given the available evidence, this seems a reasonable conclusion.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineKremlin
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3499058 - 12/14/04 05:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

respect is earned, of course

i respect the administration because i know they are putting alot of energy towards this. I respect them because they allow a site like this to run through their unpaid devoted work. I respect them because they made a decision that they believe is true, even in the face of some harsh criticisms that arent necessarily on topic (power tripping, etc).

Even if i disagreed with them, that would not make me lose respect for them, because respect shouldnt hinge on having the same opinions.

The secrecy is present because apparently alot of the complaints have been sent by PM, and we all know its against the rules to post PMs, dont we? And you and I arent moderators/administrators, so it would be inappropriate for us to see the forums that deal with administrative topics that our noses dont belong in.

It seems a reasonable conclusion to assume that these people are making informed decisions, based on their history of service to us, the shroomery members.


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3499118 - 12/14/04 06:06 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

There ARE several clearly stated rules for S&P posting, and i have clearly seen swami break many of them.

My 8th time making this request: Please provide a link to one post where Swami broke an S&P rule.

For the record, these are the rules:

1)No Flaming
2)No Baiting
3)Be Respectful
4)Come with an open mind
5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion.

calling someone and there ideas "moronic"

According to the Search function, Swami used the word "moronic" in exactly ONE thread during the past year, and it was used by way of example. He did not call any specific person, any specific person's ideas, nor any specific person's posts "moronic".

Moonshoe, you're really reaching here.

Here is a direct link to the post Moonshoe is apparently referring to for those of you objective enough to bother to follow up for yourself:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3466563/an//page//vc/1

Please point out the specific rule (quoted above for your convenience) which Swami broke and the sentence where he did so.

disapearing or going silent whenever his points are under fire.

Moonshoe, put your ego away for a while.

You misinterpret things according to your own personal bias. That he vanishes for short stints as he does, which you interpret as evasion, I interpret as planting the seed of an interesting topic of discussion, then in the grand tradition of some of the world's best teachers, he steps aside to let people debate the issue and learn for themselves.

While I'm at it:

repeatedly breaking the etiquette rules as outlined in the "how not to talk" sticky thread

Trendal has expressly stated that the "How Not To Talk" sticky is NOT a set of S&P rules. And even if they were S&P rules, which they are not, they were just posted five days ago.

And:

Personally i find it kind of sad that someone as old as my father

but to me at least its clearly baiting.

he often annoyed me

I always had the strong sense that the guy had a total lack of interest in learning OR teaching.

All personal issues that have nothing to do with S&P or Swami's ban.

I think a temporary ban is a good idea. For one thing the guy clearly spends ungodly amounts of time here, and maybe this will give him the motivation to go get some fresh air.

Of course. This is always a good reason for a ban.

Fascist.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/14/04 07:26 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3499278 - 12/14/04 06:31 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

People just dont get banned for nothing.

Perhaps you're right, but the available evidence dissagrees with you. :poke:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineRoseM
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Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
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Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3499418 - 12/14/04 06:48 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

For the record, these are the rules:

1)No Flaming: Swami has belittled people and their beliefs... multiple times (Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate)

2)No Baiting: Swami IGNORED his warning, baiting the moderators to ban him. They took the bait.

3)Be Respectful: See #2

4)Come with an open mind: See #1

5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion.: I have yet to see evidence of THIS, but I have heard rumors that he is notorious for derailing threads.

He ignored his warning... a warning that was meant to KEEP HIM HERE. Ignoring the warning alone constitutes a ban.

By my count, Swami broke 4/5 rules JUST THIS WEEK... does he really need to break ALL 5 and IGNORE A WARNING before the public supports his banning?

I suggest you stop asking for evidence, if you really want Swami to be unbanned early. The more evidence we show you, the guiltier he will look. I am just giving you the TIP of the ice burg... and you know it. :wink:

I'd love to post PM's and PRIVATE discussion, but that is against the TOS of this website... and I am a Mod. I do not wish to be demodded over Swami... just because people want to see PRIVATE information... so get over THAT.

What is Swami's punishment? He can visit ANY WEBSITE IN THE WORLD but this one... for 2 weeks (perhaps less). Poor guy.

You are crying over spilled milk.

This is HARDLY an important issue.

You may not agree with my assessment that he broke 4/5 rules... but REMEMBER, ignoring his warning was all that he needed to do to constitute a ban... something you should understand pretty well Dip.

ON TOP OF ALL THIS... Over the years, Swami has been the impetus for more than ONE RULE here at The Shroomery. Trust me, he requires A LOT OF WORK for A LOT OF US. I was up 'till 7 in the morning last night dealing with this bullshit... and I don't even mod S&P. Swami makes me work more than ANY other Shroomerite I don't know very well. This GETS OLD QUICK. Swami-trolling is not the first Swami related administrative action... it is simply the one that GOT HIM BANNED.

Thanks for playing.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3499428 - 12/14/04 06:50 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If people want to post their personal spiritual beliefs, they should be able to without having a group of science trollers making them look like fools.

Making someone look a fool is completely beyond anyone's power but the fool's.

Truth can withstand scrutiny. If your beliefs shrink away from the light of truth, then post them in a theology forum where they will never be critically questioned.

If your beliefs cannot withstand scrutiny, S&P is the wrong place make them known.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499435 - 12/14/04 06:51 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Why don't you unban swami and let him debate you with those issues? Seems kinda weak to be able to unload on him when he can't retort. I think the uprising against this ban warrants honest discussion that includes both the accused and accusers.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: looner2]
    #3499448 - 12/14/04 06:52 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I can't unban him. I don't have the ability... nor the authority.

You're barking up the wrong tree.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499455 - 12/14/04 06:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

No i'm not.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: looner2]
    #3499474 - 12/14/04 06:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, then I'll unban him...

Oh wait... I can't... you ARE barking up the wrong tree.

I'm only participating in THIS discussion because I RESPECT most of you, and feel you DO deserve an explination as to why this happened.

You are misinterpreting my actions.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3499513 - 12/14/04 07:02 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

The secrecy is present because apparently alot of the complaints have been sent by PM, and we all know its against the rules to post PMs, dont we?

I'm not asking that the complaints be made public, but rather the specific rule-breaking the complaints refer to to be made public. This is not a conflict since the alleged rule-breaking is, by definition, in Swami's record of public posts.

It seems a reasonable conclusion to assume that these people are making informed decisions, based on their history of service to us, the shroomery members.

I'm not questioning the admins' or mods' history of service. I am grateful to them all, particularly Trendal who I consider a friend. But I would be negligent to both the community and to my friends here if I didn't speak out over what seems on the balance of the evidence, a personal matter between Tendal and Swami because Swami refused to back down when it was demanded that he 'change his style'.

In the end, we're still left with my Cut To Chase question to the mods and admins:

If Swami, post-ban, refuses to censor his style in any way, will he be permabanned?

You guys might as well come to a decision on this question now because it's a fair bet that Swami, based on his history, will refuse to accommodate you especially given the nebulous and unwritten nature of the rules he seems to have broken.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineRoseM
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Posts: 22,518
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Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3499559 - 12/14/04 07:14 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Diploid: If Swami, post-ban, refuses to censor his style in any way, will he be permabanned?
_____________

Eventually, yes.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499604 - 12/14/04 07:21 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
1)No Flaming: Swami has belittled people and their beliefs... multiple times (Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate)




11 occurences over the last 10 years. No flames. Perhaps I missed something?

I will conduct a thorough review of Swamis posts in the last month and see if I can find anything.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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OfflineKremlin
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3499636 - 12/14/04 07:25 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Truth can withstand scrutiny. If your beliefs shrink away from the light of truth, then post them in a theology forum where they will never be critically questioned.





re-read what i said, i dont ever remember reading a golden rule that says "ALL BELIEFS MUST BE FIRMLY BOUND IN LOGIC AND SCIENCE, ELSE YOU ARE A FOOL". Beliefs are just that, a personal belief.

S&P is a philosophy and spiritually based topic forum, maybe the suggestion about splitting them apart isnt such a bad idea after all, since philosophers cant seem to let the dreamers dream.


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: daimyo]
    #3499662 - 12/14/04 07:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

11 occourances over 10 years? Who gave you those numbers? I didn't. How old is the Shroomery?


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499719 - 12/14/04 07:35 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate

Are you not aware that it's up to the claimant to provide proof of their claims, not the other way around?

So far I've done MORE than my part carefully searching and constructing rebuttals to the non-evidence you and others have presented. Why don't you put some effort into backing up your statements with solid evidence. I have in several posts here so far.

I have yet to see evidence of THIS, but I have heard rumors that he is notorious for derailing threads.

Of course. Rumors are always grounds for disciplinary action; never mind the actual (lack of) evidence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/14/04 08:18 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499742 - 12/14/04 07:38 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

The more evidence we show you, the guiltier he will look.

You have yet to show any evidence at all.

I am just giving you the TIP of the ice burg

Cervantes, no disrespect intended here, but bullshit! You have not given me so much as an ice cube, let alone an ice burg.

And while we're at it, how about unbanning Swami from posting just in WAF. This will stay in keeping with the general ban, but allow him to defend himself.  :syringe:

Seems a fair request, eh?

What say you, admins, mods???


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499750 - 12/14/04 07:38 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
1)No Flaming: Swami has belittled people and their beliefs... multiple times (Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate)



I am doing that search right now and can see no evidence of flaming. Swami is highly critical of unsubstantiated beliefs, and rightly so, but I see no evidence of belittling the posters who hold those beliefs.

Quote:

2)No Baiting: Swami IGNORED his warning, baiting the moderators to ban him. They took the bait.



See, I never got the whole "no baiting" thing. What exactly is baiting? As for the warning, my understanding is it was extremely vague, though I'd have to hear what it said to know for sure.

Quote:

3)Be Respectful: See #2



I've heard that Swami has said he would be perfectly ok with posting the PM he sent in response, to prove that he was not actually disrespectful.

Quote:

4)Come with an open mind: See #1



Ah, so keeping an open mind means holding all beliefs, no matter how irrational, as legit. If so, ban me plz.

Quote:

5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion.: I have yet to see evidence of THIS, but I have heard rumors that he is notorious for derailing threads.



Actually, this is the one rule I have seen him break quite a few times. Often, his thread are off-topic, and get moved to either the Pub or OTD. But I don't think this should be a ban-worthy offense.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499821 - 12/14/04 07:46 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Click Search Posts. Enter Heaven's Gate into the Keyword Search Terms area. Enter Swami into the Username search area. In the Date Range field go to the Newer Than part and enter 10, then select years from the dropbox(this is the maximum date range). Click Submit.

11 results.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499842 - 12/14/04 07:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Let's face it, Swami doesn't troll, he Swami-trolls...

Swami-trolling is a very subtle, hard to detect, and hard to punish form of trolling.


Translation: Swami's being punished for something so vague and non-specific it's impossible to really define.

Swami is sometimes a little sarcastic, and some people may occasionally take offense, but if you can't clearly define what it is that he does, how can you reasonably expect him to stop when you ask him to? Swami is an intelligent guy, but when someone's actions are this subtle, it's often difficult for them to realize when they're being facetious, no matter how smart they are.

What this kind of problem warrants is a sticky informing users that occasionally they may have their views dissected, and that they shouldn't take this seriously. Not singling out a member and banning them.

I can think of various times when people have said things in S&P to intentionally offend me. There's a member who has the frustrating habit of responding to posts with "your views make me laugh, haha", and nothing more. Others have told me I was doomed to hell, or that I was just too weak spirited to "get it". If I had spent some time and effort to rally people together and send in complaints, these people could have just as easily been banned. Swami's behaviour wasn't worse than these people, he simply annoyed a wider selection of folks and was therefore banned.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleGijith
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499867 - 12/14/04 07:51 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Why not just lock Swami out of S&P for a period of time?


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Kremlin]
    #3499936 - 12/14/04 07:58 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

maybe the suggestion about splitting them apart isnt such a bad idea after all, since philosophers cant seem to let the dreamers dream.

That was my suggestion way back when this all started.

I'm not opposed to dreaming, and given separate forums for each Spirituality and Philosophy, I will spend most of my time in the Philosophy forum, but I'll also make occasional visits to the Spirituality forum; and I'd observe drastically different styles of communication in each; as it should be.

An alternative that has been suggested is a new rule that the opening post of a thread be clearly labeled as "NO CITIQUES ALLOWED", in which case, the S&P membership will be bound to honor that request in that thread. A special gremlin could so mark those threads.

Seems like a reasonable compromise between banning people for speaking their mind vs splitting the forum into two.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Registered: 06/04/04
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3499977 - 12/14/04 08:02 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I'm only participating in THIS discussion because I RESPECT most of you, and feel you DO deserve an explination as to why this happened.

Seeing as you have ignored my carefully thought-out questions, I'd say you have not explained yourself at all. I was nothing but respectful. Based upon this, I am more convinced than ever that the root of this is personal. It is clear for any unbiased observer to see. The mods who spearheaded this anti-Swami campaign had documented personal issues with him and should have recused themselves from casting judgement on him.

I'm not going to waste my time here any further since those involved seem intent on stonewalling. I guess integrity doesn't really matter here at the Shroomery. Swami had truck loads of it. Maybe you all can borrow some from him?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3500068 - 12/14/04 08:11 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I urge anyone that is undecided over whether Swamis ban is legit to look over his posts from the last month. Enter Swami into the Username Search area and click submit. My search came back with 568 results. It does not take long to see that Swami should be immediately reinstated. If the S&P rules are so sacred, then I think there are several CLEAR CUT violations of said rules that should have been dealt with long before Swami.

But one example...Search for the thread "Summation of What I Have Learned" by Swami. On the first page of this thread there is a clear example of flaming, and a clear example of derailment.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3500071 - 12/14/04 08:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, this [off-topic posts] is the one rule I have seen him break quite a few times.

Swami and his damned Banana Bread threads! Geeze, what will he do next, wish everyone a Merry Christmas, maybe?  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleeric_the_redS
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Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 14,460
Loc: happy land
Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3500208 - 12/14/04 08:30 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Then WTF exactly are you doing here?




i posted one little observation and an overzealous groupie jumped all over me for it. i'm here because you took the thread off topic to try to pick apart everything i posted, whether it was relevant/beneficial to the issue or not.

Quote:

Translation: I have no evidence whatsoever that Swami broke any rules. Never mind that I said he did anyway.




you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Quote:

Uhm, this?

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/percent.php?who=110594




is this a record for 6+ years of posting?  if you think so, can you provide evidence proving that? :wink:

Quote:

You said Swami broke the rules.




no, i didn't. here is what i said:
Quote:

I said:
i have and i really don't even go in to s&p that often.
i'm not taking sides, just stating a fact. it doesn't matter to me one bit if swami is forced to take a vacation or not. i'm sure the feeling is mutual; a 15 day ban is not a big deal.






Quote:

What part am I missing?




apparently you missed where i said i had no intention of providing proof. the thread that came to mind when i made my original post has been moved or deleted. obviously, the mods or admins are the only ones that might know its fate.
i'm not here to do your bidding and i'm not going to waste any time wading through old threads to find evidence to appease you or anyone else. 

this whole lynch mob needs to chill out. you've blown everything way out of proportion and are out to get the mods, admins, or anyone who posts something that doesn't please you.

i'm done with this thread, because:
1. as i already said, a 15 day ban is not a big deal. swami isn't going to kill himself over this.
2. this debate is going nowhere; i feel this is as useless as debating a paperweight.


--------------------
Anno cock? is that some kind of Greek liqueur? -Geo's All Knowing Sex Slave

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3500261 - 12/14/04 08:37 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Well then, if 15 days isn't so bad, maybe we could just ban you for 15 days without a reason. After all, it's only 15 days.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: eric_the_red]
    #3500285 - 12/14/04 08:40 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

anyone who posts something that doesn't please you.

I love irony!  :wink:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3500694 - 12/14/04 09:37 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

my .02$

Swami was being a pain in the ass to a lot of people, and when he was confronted by the S&P mods, he tried to argue his righteousness in the typical slick swami style, this was not the hoped for response. I agree that something needed to be done about swami; he was disturbing the peace and restricting the free flow of ideas on the board, by derailing threads.

Here's an example where I called him on it; note his response too me and continued derailment of the thread away from the 'Sacredness' of mushrooms into his usual debunking of the sacred and mystical.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3473693/an/0/page/4

There is certainly a place for swami's philosophy in the S&P forum, but it was getting out of hand. I fully support the administration's action on this matter.


That being said, I think an early release would be merciful and honorable. Let's give swami a Christmas present and let him back in. If he doesn't learn how to play nice then further consequences will be his own fault.

Peace,
shroomydan

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: shroomydan]
    #3500771 - 12/14/04 09:48 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
my .02$

Swami was being a pain in the ass to a lot of people, and when he was confronted by the S&P mods, he tried to argue his righteousness in the typical slick swami style, this was not the hoped for response. I agree that something needed to be done about swami; he was disturbing the peace and restricting the free flow of ideas on the board, by derailing threads.

Here's an example where I called him on it; note his response too me and continued derailment of the thread away from the 'Sacredness' of mushrooms into his usual debunking of the sacred and mystical.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3473693/an/0/page/4



I read every response of his in that thread, and saw no disrespectful or unruly behavior on his part. He was simply inquiring in a way that any good skeptic should. You, on the other hand, called him a "deconstructionist skeptical materialist who likes to be a pain in the ass," which I believe consitutes flaming.


--------------------


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3500784 - 12/14/04 09:50 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Cervantes said:
1)No Flaming: Swami has belittled people and their beliefs... multiple times (Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate)



I am doing that search right now and can see no evidence of flaming. Swami is highly critical of unsubstantiated beliefs, and rightly so, but I see no evidence of belittling the posters who hold those beliefs.

Quote:

2)No Baiting: Swami IGNORED his warning, baiting the moderators to ban him. They took the bait.



See, I never got the whole "no baiting" thing. What exactly is baiting? As for the warning, my understanding is it was extremely vague, though I'd have to hear what it said to know for sure.

Quote:

3)Be Respectful: See #2



I've heard that Swami has said he would be perfectly ok with posting the PM he sent in response, to prove that he was not actually disrespectful.

Quote:

4)Come with an open mind: See #1



Ah, so keeping an open mind means holding all beliefs, no matter how irrational, as legit. If so, ban me plz.

Quote:

5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion.: I have yet to see evidence of THIS, but I have heard rumors that he is notorious for derailing threads.



Actually, this is the one rule I have seen him break quite a few times. Often, his thread are off-topic, and get moved to either the Pub or OTD. But I don't think this should be a ban-worthy offense.




just thought I'd bump ss7's post.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3500799 - 12/14/04 09:52 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I was up 'till 7 in the morning last night dealing with this bullshit...




...all that work and no evidence, eh?

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3500858 - 12/14/04 10:02 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


I read every response of his in that thread, and saw no disrespectful or unruly behavior on his part. He was simply inquiring in a way that any good skeptic should. You, on the other hand, called him a "deconstructionist skeptical materialist who likes to be a pain in the ass," which I believe consitutes flaming.


Exactly. Swami simply stated his opinion, then some people told him in a rather rude way that they only wanted to hear responses from people who agreed with them.


--------------------
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3501030 - 12/14/04 10:36 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If calling someone a pain in the ass is flaming, then I'm guilty as charged.

This isn't about me, it's about a lack of respect for other posters who would like to occasionally discuss something other than skepticism. The initiator of the thread was interested in hearing stories about spiritual experiences from people who think mushrooms are sacred. I don't believe that every post should degenerate into a debate about epistemology, nor do I believe the materialist position needs to be vigorously defended in threads specifically about the spiritual and mystical, it gets old.

I made my earlier post show my support for the administration's decision and to request clemency for swami. I do not wish to debate my reasons further because frankly I find such discussions pointless. That means you get the last word.

No hard feelings, I'll see you all around.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: shroomydan]
    #3501049 - 12/14/04 10:40 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If posters would prefer not to discuss skepticism, then they are free to abstain from doing so. The ignore feature is there for a reason, you know. And I'm sorry that you think censoring a certain viewpoint from a thread is valid. It certainly makes me glad that you do not moderate that forum.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: shroomydan]
    #3501267 - 12/14/04 11:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

note his response too me and continued derailment of the thread away from the 'Sacredness' of mushrooms into his usual debunking of the sacred and mystical.

That's actually a great argument against Swami's ban. Thank you for bringing that up. The thread was entitled "For those of you who see mushrooms as sacred". Well, Swami did not share your opinion. Your argument couldn't withstand scrutiny, but Swami NEVER personally attacked you as anyone can see from reading the thread you cited. Further proof this ban is ALL about hurt wittle feelings..awwww.

You are not your beliefs. You are an eternal spirit playing a human role in space-time. Listen to Swami-jen. He show you dis, mon.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3501280 - 12/14/04 11:26 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

You, on the other hand, called him a "deconstructionist skeptical materialist who likes to be a pain in the ass," which I believe consitutes flaming.

Ahh...but attacks upon Swami are permissible. Perceived attacks by him are not.  :rolleyes: Good god.


--------------------
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3502146 - 12/15/04 03:05 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Cervantes said:
1)No Flaming: Swami has belittled people and their beliefs... multiple times (Want proof? Start by searching for Swami and Heaven's Gate)



I am doing that search right now and can see no evidence of flaming. Swami is highly critical of unsubstantiated beliefs, and rightly so, but I see no evidence of belittling the posters who hold those beliefs.

Quote:

2)No Baiting: Swami IGNORED his warning, baiting the moderators to ban him. They took the bait.



See, I never got the whole "no baiting" thing. What exactly is baiting? As for the warning, my understanding is it was extremely vague, though I'd have to hear what it said to know for sure.

Quote:

3)Be Respectful: See #2



I've heard that Swami has said he would be perfectly ok with posting the PM he sent in response, to prove that he was not actually disrespectful.

Quote:

4)Come with an open mind: See #1



Ah, so keeping an open mind means holding all beliefs, no matter how irrational, as legit. If so, ban me plz.

Quote:

5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion.: I have yet to see evidence of THIS, but I have heard rumors that he is notorious for derailing threads.



Actually, this is the one rule I have seen him break quite a few times. Often, his thread are off-topic, and get moved to either the Pub or OTD. But I don't think this should be a ban-worthy offense.



You're debating someone who's got nothing. Bet it feels a bit like bashing your head into a wall would.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3502152 - 12/15/04 03:06 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
And you.... interesting that the "man" who said "Until then, I really was concerned with keeping his ban private, or between him and me" has now brought it up twice.

The first time with no prompting, the second with third party prompting.

Thanks for showing the accuracy of my original statement.




And yet again with the same predictable response.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3502343 - 12/15/04 04:47 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Bye luv.

Banned twice in the same day... for the same reason as your FIRST two bans.

You make Swami's actions look Saintly.

Here's one that is easy for you tin hatters to prove.

Luvdem's banned because he hasn't posted in the same thread as me since OCTOBER without flaming, trolling or flat out attacking me.

When I say nothing, he does it again, as soon as he's back.

When I say SOMETHING, he complains that I shouldn't talk about his bans in public, then he returns to flaming me.

Swami uses the SAME tactics as Luvdem, but at least Swami's got some sense of tact.


--------------------
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Edited by Rose (12/15/04 04:49 AM)

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: shroomydan]
    #3502691 - 12/15/04 07:24 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The initiator of the thread was interested in hearing stories about spiritual experiences from people who think mushrooms are sacred. I don't believe that every post should degenerate into a debate about epistemology, nor do I believe the materialist position needs to be vigorously defended in threads specifically about the spiritual and mystical, it gets old.




The thing you people are forgetting (to mention this once again) is there is this thing called the ignore user function. As far as I can see (and by the moderators' own admission), Swami never flamed or insulted anyone. Perhaps he was annoying to a few for injecting a dose of Reality Check ?. Well you know what? Tough shit - that is not against the rules. Be self-responsible and use the ignore user function.

As for this incredibly ambiguous and subjective and selectively-enforced "Be Respectful" rule, personally I fail to see how expressing skepticism and disagreement is disrespectful. I think if the original poster wished to avoid such discussion they should preface their thread and request to avoid going down that path.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Vvellum]
    #3502879 - 12/15/04 08:59 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

In that thread about "mushroom spirits", Swami presented his point of view in a certain way that is abrasive to a lot of people. In that thread, and in almost all Swami threads, Swami expresses himself not with the hope of making a contribution to the discussion, but with the hope of correcting people's thinking with what he believes is cold hard logic. Granted, Swami said nothing personal, nothing insulting, nothing that I would interpret as being against the forum rules. Nonetheless, his presence in the thread did cause it to degenerate into a debate, rather than the poster's intention: a pooling of experiences.

More and more, I'm starting to believe that the problem with Swami exists as much on the side of those who've taken issue with him as it does on Swami's end of things. Because of this, I believe that it is as much our responsibility to smooth over this situation as it is Swami's.

Swami appears to enjoy injecting a dose of RealityCheck? (may cause hypertension) into any post where the opportunity is available. What Swami needs to understand, I think, is that not everybody needs a reality check. It is not up to Swami to decide who needs a reality check and who doesn't. As silly as he make think they are, Swami needs to have the capacity to let some discussions take their own course, instead of sparking controversy in the name of some kind of righteous allegience to verifyable data. It is unquestionable that Swami could have taken the same position without taking such an inflexible stance. Taking an inflexible skeptic's stance is more often disruptive and inappropriate than it is helpful.

However, Swami cannot create a disturbance by himself. A disturbance is a relationship between the aggitator and those aggitated. I do believe that the reaction to Swami's sometimes aggitating position is quite often much more explosive than is necessary.

Swami cannot expect everyone to adjust to his conversation style, and in some cases it's appropriate for him to keep out of some threads for the sake of keeping the peace. By the same token, each of us cannot expect Swami to adjust to our own conversation styles, and we need to show some lenience with the stance he chooses to take -- and will continue to take -- for the sake of keeping the peace. If Swami is secure in his own ideas, he should have the capacity to present them with a more flexible attitude. By the same token, if we are secure in our own ideas, we should have the capacity to remain peaceful when confronted with an argument from someone behaving inflexibly.

I believe that if Swami is willing to show a little more tolerance to others, and if the rest of the community is willing to show a little more tolerance to Swami, we can put a peaceful end to this problem, and take an important step as a community at S&P.

But then again, there are those of us who thrive on controversy, and behave in such a way for the sake of causing unrest for our own entertainment. In accordance with the forum guidelines, I believe such people should not be permitted to post in some areas of the Shroomery community.


--------------------


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
    #3503181 - 12/15/04 11:19 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Well said... as usual, Ped

:heart:


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InvisibleCherryBomM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Shroomism]
    #3503368 - 12/15/04 12:04 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Ditto.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3503400 - 12/15/04 12:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

you know, I appreciate swami's debunking, but he can be quite rude.

He used to refer to me as 'herr doktor' which is very offensive to me because I am sensitive about my German heritage. He was basically implying I was some kind of nazi. Really, that's like calling a black person 'nigger'.

Swami is always using subtext to insult people. He's very clever about not directly breaking the rules, but I believe his intention is to ridicule in many cases.

not to mention he tried to have me banned over a 'death threat' which was purely hypothetical, even when everyone BUT him recognized it as such. Then he sent me pm's trying to drag me into his little thing with Mr Mushrooms, which I thought was childish and petty (and I'm like 1/2 his age).

anyway, I think swami is a valuable member of this community but he does go overboard sometimes, and I hope that this short ban teaches him a lesson.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3503669 - 12/15/04 01:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
He used to refer to me as 'herr doktor' which is very offensive to me because I am sensitive about my German heritage. He was basically implying I was some kind of nazi. Really, that's like calling a black person 'nigger'.




I think you ought to do some research into the MOST BASIC of your proud German heritage...language. Herr Doktor = Mr. Doctor. That is a far cry from a racial slur.


--------------------
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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3503924 - 12/15/04 02:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)


"For the record, these are the rules:

1)No Flaming
2)No Baiting
3)Be Respectful
4)Come with an open mind
5)This isn't OTD...keep posts on topic where possible. Off-topic posts will be removed at the mods' discretion. "

shroomism has done a good job of showing how swami has broken these rules.

if nothing else i would contest that he is a massive violator of rule number four.


"According to the Search function, Swami used the word "moronic" in exactly ONE thread during the past year, and it was used by way of example. He did not call any specific person, any specific person's ideas, nor any specific person's posts "moronic". "

you are correct, i was mistaken into thinking he was adressing a specific person, he was not, i apologize.




Moonshoe, put your ego away for a while.


"you misinterpret things according to your own personal bias. "

no, i interpret things according to my own personal bias, as do you, and as does every other living person on earth

"That he vanishes for short stints as he does, which you interpret as evasion, I interpret as planting the seed of an interesting topic of discussion, then in the grand tradition of some of the world's best teachers, he steps aside to let people debate the issue and learn for themselves. "

that is your interpretation. and although it may be true for some situations i am refering to incidences where he would argue vehemently and savagely, and each time you refuted his points his responses would become shorter and more selective, diminishing in time down to pointing out grammatical flaws or something incredibly trifling like that, then finally he would go silent despite the fact that numerous specif questions or arguments had been directed to him.

my problem is that instead of responding with a counter argument or conceding "maybe your right" he would simply disapear.



"Trendal has expressly stated that the "How Not To Talk" sticky is NOT a set of S&P rules. And even if they were S&P rules, which they are not, they were just posted five days ago. "

i know there not rules, and i clearly stated that breaking them isnt a reason for a ban, just something that annoys me. everyone breaks em at some point though.



"Personally i find it kind of sad that someone as old as my father

but to me at least its clearly baiting.

he often annoyed me


I always had the strong sense that the guy had a total lack of interest in learning OR teaching. "


"All personal issues that have nothing to do with S&P or Swami's ban. "

true and i never tried to present them as other than personal issues. hence words like "i had the sense" and "personally i thought"

however the final one, no interest in learning or teaching, is in fact a direct violation of shroomery rule number four,, come with an open mind.

me: "I think a temporary ban is a good idea. For one thing the guy clearly spends ungodly amounts of time here, and maybe this will give him the motivation to go get some fresh air. "

You: "Of course. This is always a good reason for a ban. "

Thats called a joke.

"Fascist. "

i dont know if THAT was joke, but it did make me laugh


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
    #3504893 - 12/15/04 05:02 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

my problem is that instead of responding with a counter argument or conceding "maybe your right" he would simply disapear.

What you're not getting here is that disappearing is NOT AGAINST THE RULES. Neither is arguing vehemently or savagely.

In fact, I would counter to say that anyone who vehemently and savagely argues a point, then vanishes after a rebuttal has summarily lost the argument.

Point that out to the audience, and sit down satisfied with your intellectual victory. Don't whine that your opponent backed down; it just means your argument prevailed.

This is better than the usual reply I get when someone's argument doesn't hold up; they call me an 'arrogant asshole' and then they vanish.

Swami just vanishes. So what?

What's the problem?


--------------------
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3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3505040 - 12/15/04 05:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

So did you just read over his whole post until you found a sentence fragment to argue against?
I think he stated the problem very clearly and eloquently.

Did you ever stop to think that not everyone in S&P wants their threads to turn into a savage debate?
You are talking about winning an argument.. I am talking about no arguments in the first place.

There's a difference between coming into someone's thread to offer a differing viewpoint, and changing the focus of the thread entirely into an argument or debate. I'm not saying there is no place for debate, just that it happens entirely too often, and it seems to me like many just want to share their experiences and not HAVE to debate. That shit gets old. Especially when it's someone coming into your peaceful thread just to pick a fight.
It's not the spirituality & philosphy & debate & argument & debunking forum. Though it might as well be.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Shroomism]
    #3505264 - 12/15/04 05:55 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Did you ever stop to think that not everyone in S&P wants their threads to turn into a savage debate?



Did you ever stop to think that maybe this it's a public forum in which anyone is supposed to be able to post their views on the subject?


--------------------


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3505370 - 12/15/04 06:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Then why do we even have separate forums?

Why not just ONE big forum to discuss everything?


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3505436 - 12/15/04 06:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Then why do we even have separate forums?

Why not just ONE big forum to discuss everything?



I believe that would be OTD. In any case, I fail to see how disagreeing with the premise of a thread is in any way the same as flaming, baiting, disrespect, or close-mindedness.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3505482 - 12/15/04 06:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah... well you are a Libertarian... you're SUPPOSED to feel that way.

I'm a Democrat... so I'm a walking, talking oxymoron.

It's amazing we can even have conversations with one another without both our heads exploding.

:smile:


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3505496 - 12/15/04 06:31 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

The only bearing that my libertarian beliefs have on this is that I am interpreting the S&P rules in the same constructionalist manner in which I interpret the Constitution. I believe the rules mean what they say, and not what the mods and admins here would like them to mean.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3505622 - 12/15/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"What you're not getting here is that disappearing is NOT AGAINST THE RULES. Neither is arguing vehemently or savagely."

and what yoru not getting is that i NEVER SAID IT WAS!

i point out only 2 obvious things that swami has done that violate the official shroomery s & P rules.

1. he has been baiting
2. he has not come with an open mind

everything other than that is simply my own oppinions and greivances, and should be taken as such.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3505773 - 12/15/04 07:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

1. he has been baiting



How so?

Quote:

2. he has not come with an open mind



Why? Because he disagrees with people?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3505891 - 12/15/04 07:39 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

After sitting back and looking at this situation we can clearly see some good things and some things that need to be worked out.

here something I have to say on getting offended on the internet...its your fault if you get offended on the net.  It is my philisophical belief that every person is responisble for their emotions.  learning to do this (as I am still learning how) is awesome for philisophical and spiritual growth.  swami is an awesoe teacher for this and has opened many doors for myself and countless others.

the good is that I see the community coming together for a common cause, and for that I applaud each and every one of you (for what it's worth anyway :wink: )  What I also see is how well the mods have been taking the criticism, you guys have been awesome.  this really makes me appreciate this community a whole lot more.  its akin to that feeling I got when I came back from the ohio gathering...community.

on the flipside, I have also seen things said that shows clear disrespect for the mods.  even if you don't think our decision was correct, to say some of things I've read concerning this issue is atrocious.  people making claims aobut how another person is feeling, and whether or not the mods take this personal.  you can say what you say in a more respectful way, something that I think needs to be cleared up for the S&P forum.

note...this is only for S&P, not PAL, the pub, or any other forum.  make all the comparisons needed, these are completely different forums.

with swami and the mods...I think both "sides" are correct, and both "sides" are incorrect (though there really aren't any sides :wink: ).

ok..onto the issue. I have something for both myself and the mods, and for swami. I have a few that I want to discuss, and we'll take this on a singular basis starting with this one...

one thing clearly sticks in my mind is when swami told someone they weren't worth debating with.

here's how respect is defined in the dictionary I am holding in front of me.

respect:  esteem for or a sense of the worth of excellence for a person, a personal quality or trait, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or trait.

what swami said shows no respect at all for the poster.  and in fact...does nothing for the discussion. there was no reason for him to tell someone they arent worth debating that would further the discussion.  if he doesn't agree (even if he IS right) then he can politely say "I disagree with you on this subject" but not attack or say something about this person  worth in discussion.  who is he to say something like that to another person?

we have a discussion when we talk about the ideas...we have an argument when we talk about the person. 

furthermore, I have seen points made that he's been here for a long time..etc..etc...then he should realize that his opinion may carry more weight than other's opinions on the board, which is even more reason to show respect.

now onto us..the mods.

first of all I myself have seen swami do what he does which  I feel is a lack of respect for certain members but never really did aanything about it. For the most part I was being hesitant since I was sorta new to the community and being a mod and didn't want to sstep on anyone's toes.  other times swami would make what I like to call his "counter posts" ( I'll get onto that after we deal with the first issue) and I would almost close it but most of the time an awesome discussion would break out.  Even if his way was a little too blunt for me, I would forgo it because most of the time great discussions would follow.  this inconsistency on my part shows how much learning I still have left..;)

another thing is the duration of the ban. this is only my opinion but if we were going to start banning him...I feel that after the first warning there should be a one or two day ban, as opposed to what we have right now.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

Edited by kaiowas (12/15/04 07:40 PM)

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OfflinePsilygirl
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: shroomydan]
    #3505897 - 12/15/04 07:40 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
my .02$

Swami was being a pain in the ass to a lot of people, and when he was confronted by the S&P mods, he tried to argue his righteousness in the typical slick swami style, this was not the hoped for response. I agree that something needed to be done about swami; he was disturbing the peace and restricting the free flow of ideas on the board, by derailing threads.

Here's an example where I called him on it; note his response too me and continued derailment of the thread away from the 'Sacredness' of mushrooms into his usual debunking of the sacred and mystical.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3473693/an/0/page/4

There is certainly a place for swami's philosophy in the S&P forum, but it was getting out of hand. I fully support the administration's action on this matter.





I have been largely without opinion on the matter, and not that mine matters, especially since I don't venture into S&P... but after reading that thread, I can see where Swami's presence would be kind of annoying.

It's kind of like the way pinky is really annoying in PA&L, and I know I stopped going in there because of him. He thinks he is the only one who is right and he has enough time on his hands to type out huge responses and nit pick the smallest of statements. I would love to make some "activism" threads on environmental and humane issues, since it is part of the forum, but I'm sure pinky would derail me, so I don't bother.

After reading a few threads, I can see that this is kind of what Swami does. I could see people not wanting to post in there because of one individual. And while I am all for freedom of speech, if there are people who don't want to come into the forum because of ONE person, who otherwise would, I understand the decisions of the moderators.

Psily


--------------------
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Psilygirl]
    #3505995 - 12/15/04 07:58 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

For those who feel uncomfortable having their ideas challenged in threads, I'd like to remind you once again that there is an ignore feature. I can often manage to ignore users without having to use the ignore feature, but if you have trouble doing the same, feel free to use that feature. You are not obligated to respond to anyone's posts.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3506542 - 12/15/04 09:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

this is not to anyone in particular but

in spite of all my bitching i think that banning swami is pretty pointless, if he does come back hes bound to be exactly the same which he should be because he was a usefull member of the board.

i liked the guy 90% of the time and he definetly put more work into s & P than any of us.

i think any of the people who are 'to afraid to post because there afraid swami will rip them up" should either use the ignore button or grow some thicker skin.

I loved butting heads with him and if he doesnt come back (and he might be pissed off enough not to) well have lose a valuable member.

All im saying is there are a few certain things that annoy me, but thats my problem. I dont think he did anything to warrant being kicked out

and although i think you could say its true he doesnt have the most open mind, i dont really think that should be a "rule" i mean you cant really help it if your close minded and we cant just throw out everyone who doesnt believe anything without rock solid evidence.

Probably we all need a bit more swami in us, although i think he needs a bit less in him

im stoned and rambeling but i do think if we lose swami that will be a godamn shame

and it is fair to expect some direct and obvious links to violations at least from the mods who banned him


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3506938 - 12/15/04 11:18 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
this is not to anyone in particular but

in spite of all my bitching i think that banning swami is pretty pointless, if he does come back hes bound to be exactly the same which he should be because he was a usefull member of the board.

i liked the guy 90% of the time and he definetly put more work into s & P than any of us.

i think any of the people who are 'to afraid to post because there afraid swami will rip them up" should either use the ignore button or grow some thicker skin.

I loved butting heads with him and if he doesnt come back (and he might be pissed off enough not to) well have lose a valuable member.

All im saying is there are a few certain things that annoy me, but thats my problem. I dont think he did anything to warrant being kicked out

and although i think you could say its true he doesnt have the most open mind, i dont really think that should be a "rule" i mean you cant really help it if your close minded and we cant just throw out everyone who doesnt believe anything without rock solid evidence.

Probably we all need a bit more swami in us, although i think he needs a bit less in him

im stoned and rambeling but i do think if we lose swami that will be a godamn shame

and it is fair to expect some direct and obvious links to violations at least from the mods who banned him




Ditto.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3507052 - 12/15/04 11:43 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

if all posts were similar to that we would have come a hell alot closer to coming to a conclusion then where we are at now.

more aggressive views = more resistence


--------------------
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OfflineRoseM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: spudamore]
    #3507235 - 12/16/04 12:40 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

spudamore said:
if all posts were similar to that we would have come a hell alot closer to coming to a conclusion then where we are at now.

more aggressive views = more resistence




I agree, I imagine the Admin would have reached a verdict by now, if it weren't for all the drama. Drama slows the Admin down, because drama = work.


--------------------
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: kaiowas]
    #3508013 - 12/16/04 09:16 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)


what swami said shows no respect at all for the poster. and in fact...does nothing for the discussion. there was no reason for him to tell someone they arent worth debating that would further the discussion. if he doesn't agree (even if he IS right) then he can politely say "I disagree with you on this subject" but not attack or say something about this person worth in discussion. who is he to say something like that to another person?


I think that if the person isn't actually debating, and just hurling ad hominem attacks, then they aren't worth debating with. It's perfectly fair to say so, even though it may be a little blunt.

What I've found totally disgusting is the attitude I've seen from certain members that Swami should just accept the fact that he's banned.

The guy has been banned for what seems to me like a completely fabricated reason. Sure the ban is only 15 days, but 15 days is a hell of a long time for not doing anything wrong. If Swami had actually done something wrong you'd think that the mods would be able to present a little more evidence than one example where Swami was curt with someone who was being far more rude than he was.

The mods haven't even tried to present some sort of argument justifying their lack of evidence.

It seems like this ban is based entirely on the number of complaints, and not their validity.

So I ask the mods this; if I can get enough people to complain about any member for no particular reason, could I get them banned?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3508016 - 12/16/04 09:17 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I agree, I imagine the Admin would have reached a verdict by now, if it weren't for all the drama. Drama slows the Admin down, because drama = work.

Swami was banned before a verdict was reached?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: daimyo]
    #3508170 - 12/16/04 10:03 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:
He used to refer to me as 'herr doktor' which is very offensive to me because I am sensitive about my German heritage. He was basically implying I was some kind of nazi. Really, that's like calling a black person 'nigger'.




I think you ought to do some research into the MOST BASIC of your proud German heritage...language. Herr Doktor = Mr. Doctor. That is a far cry from a racial slur.




yes I'm quite aware of that. The point is that this is a perfect example of SWAMI using subtext to push personal emotional buttons. Like I said, he is very clever in how he belittles people to make it seem as if he is not violating any rules.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phluck]
    #3508192 - 12/16/04 10:09 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

We're so busy in this thread trying to figure out who is to blame. Is Swami an aggitator, or is everybody just over reacting to him because they are insecure? That is what this is all about. When will we find the answer? Later today? Tommorow, perhaps? Maybe next week?

It's totally pointless to try to convince each other that Swami should be absolved of all crimes, that he is innocent, or that he is an inflammatory presence who needs disciplinary action. The arguement that "He didn't break the rules, you people are just weak" is useless. The argument that "He broke the rules, you people are just his loyalists" is useless. We will never resolve a dispute this way. No argument in history, either large-scale or small, has ever been resolved peacefully when either side has it in mind to forcefully convince the other of their position.

There are two ingredients which must come into play before a conflict of this sort can surround a member at a community where debate and discussion happens: 1) The member must be a somewhat strong-willed, sometimes aggitating presence. 2) Those with whom he interacts must be somewhat over-sensitive, and insecure in their own position. Both of these need to come together before a situation of this sort can arise. If one or both of these ingredients is absent, there is no basis for a conflict of this nature to occur. Since a conflict of this nature is indeed occuring, it is reasonable to conclude that both of these ingredients are present, that Swami is a strong-willed, sometimes aggitating presence, and that those offended by him are experiencing some degree of insecurity.

We have been trying to isolate which single ingredient needs to be removed, to impose upon others what adjustments need to be made. When we impose upon others, we create the potential for further conflict. One the one side, there are those of us who believe Swami is at fault and should be disciplined. On the other side, there are those of us who believe that Swami has done nothing wrong, that the action taken against him has been an injustice perpetrated by weak-willed individuals. We need to let go of both positions.

In trying to solve this situation, the answer is not to argue over which one ingredient needs to be removed. If our action is to remove the first ingredient, as we have attempted by banning Swami, we foster resentment not only from Swami, but from those who enjoy his presence within this community. If we try to remove the second ingredient, by yelling at and critcizing those who have a problem with Swami's presence (as we have been doing), we foster resentment from those we are criticizing. As a result, threads such as this one explode into tennis-match arguments which have no appreciable direction, and essentially amount to a whole lot of needless negativity.

The answer to is remove both ingredients. Everyone must adjust. Swami must be asked to be at least a little bit more flexible for the sake of keeping the peace. If he is a kind person this should not be laborous for him. At the same time, we must take it upon ourselves not to be so reactionary whenever it appears that Swami is belittling us or attacking our point of view. If we have a sincere wish to overcome this situation, and not to exact vengence on someone whom we believe has wronged us, we should have no trouble making this adjustment in ourselves. That is the route to success. Cooperation.

If Swami is secure in his own ideas, he should have the capacity to present them with a more flexible attitude. By the same token, if we are secure in our own ideas, we should have the capacity to remain peaceful when confronted with an argument from someone behaving inflexibly.

Make a difference!


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

Edited by Ped (12/16/04 10:27 AM)

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OfflinePed
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phluck]
    #3508239 - 12/16/04 10:24 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

>> 15 days is a hell of a long time for not doing anything wrong. If Swami had actually done something wrong you'd think that the mods would be able to present a little more evidence than one example where Swami was curt with someone who was being far more rude than he was.

It seems most likely that the reason he was banned has entirely to do with other members requesting that he be banned, presenting their case probably with a lot of embellishment, with the wish to exact vengence and make a cowardly victory for themselves. It's quite possible that the ban against Swami was a mistake, and that our moderators are not in fact cold tyrants imposing a totalitarian regime. It's also possible that the moderators themselves had a personal vendetta against Swami. That would be extremely unfortunate, but yelling at them and accusing them of this is not going to cause them to concede. It will exacerbate the problem.

We need to put down our torches as well as our pitchforks, and turn off the Bandwagon-Banjo cassette.

On one occasion, Swami informed me that I was "not worth debating with", because I insist on using "anecdotes as evidence". Essentially, this was an attack on my discussion style rather than a comment on the point of view I was presenting. On another occasion, I informed Swami that I believed him to be "childish, and a little twisted," because of a post he had made about Christopher Reeves. We were both wrong to say these things. It is an unfortunate situation that either of these minor offenses were perpetrated against each other, but if either Swami or myself are going to coexist, we must have the capacity to let these things slide. Another Shroomerite once extended a hand of friendship to me after I apologized to him for accidently conveying the impression that I thought him to be unintelligent. He said "Catch, and release." It's become a bit of a motto of mine.

Catch, and release.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
    #3508522 - 12/16/04 11:41 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"On one occasion, Swami informed me that I was "not worth debating with", because I insist on using "anecdotes as evidence"."

that is exactly the main thing that bugs me about swami! pure hypocritical crap like that. Your not worth debating cuz you use anecdotes, and yet rarely if ever have i debated swami without him remembering a recent event that happend at his tennis club and affirms his point, which is the most blatant example of anecdotal evidence...

:thumbdown:


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3508627 - 12/16/04 12:23 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

And on another occasion, I informed him that I thought of him as "childish and a little twisted". We were both in the wrong. I make many mistakes in debating with others. I'm glad people don't show the same intolerance toward me as we seem to be showing toward Swami, but I'd be even happier if we could look past the things that bug us about Swami and instead focus on what we ourselves can do to aid the situation. We can make adjustments in ourselves, but we cannot force Swami to make adjustments in himself.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3508713 - 12/16/04 12:50 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Sure people "should" be tough skinned, and ignore other people.

Psilygirl gave up on posting certain things because she didn't want to see her thread derailed. That's too bad she feels that way, she may have some great ideas.

Telling her to toughen up and use the ignore function seems a little harsh. What I got from her post is that she was trying to be impartial in that she wasn't a regular here. She gave an honest opinion of her reaction to reading the thread.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (12/16/04 01:05 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
    #3508802 - 12/16/04 01:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
It's quite possible that the ban against Swami was a mistake, and that our moderators are not in fact cold tyrants imposing a totalitarian regime.  It's also possible that the moderators themselves had a personal vendetta against Swami.  That would be extremely unfortunate, but yelling at them and accusing them of this is not going to cause them to concede.  It will exacerbate the problem.

We need to put down our torches as well as our pitchforks, and turn off the Bandwagon-Banjo cassette.


Well said.  Let me make clear that I firmly do not believe our moderators were acting with mal intent.  I will also admit that I was quick to extend Swami's ban based on the perceived notion that he had disregarded a very clear final warning that was sent to him via PM by trendal.  I have readily stated amongst the staff and to some in private, but I will now state here, that I believe I in fact was misguided by my own failure to appropriately review the situation at hand before extending Swami's ban.  Do I think he deserved a ban?  Absolutely, and I stand by that decision.  However, if I could go back I would not have extended the ban for the length that I did.  I have initiated an administrative review of this situation, but a few admins are currently absent and it is difficult to come to a concensus on the matter.  Particularly in light of Swami's demands that Phluck related to us in another WA&F thread, it is hard to come to a resolve on reducing the ban because he has in effect exhibited that he has learned next to nothing from this experience, and rather has concentrated his efforts on trying to win over his own freedom through argument and debate rather than through compromise.

This situation is still under review and I hope those who have figuratively yelled until their fingers were ready to fall off, can now lay some of their distress to rest.  As I stated, we in fact are listening to you, but coming to a unified resolve is very difficult when things have become such a public spectacle and any action we take could spark more negative implications to certain persons. 

I'd also like to note that I'm not here to get drawn into an argument so this will likely be the last post you see from me here unless the administration comes to a different collective resolve.  I have admitted that I acted in haste by erroneously assuming I understood more about this issue than I actually did, and for that I apologize and hope those raising cries of tyranny will be able to forgive me and the staff for the perceived administrative inconsistency arising from Swami's ban.

/geo out :heart:


--------------------

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: geokills]
    #3510091 - 12/16/04 05:38 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

geokills said:
Well said. Let me make clear that I firmly do not believe our moderators were acting with mal intent. I will also admit that I was quick to extend Swami's ban based on the perceived notion that he had disregarded a very clear final warning that was sent to him via PM by trendal.



My understanding is that this was his ONLY warning, and that it was very non-specific, as has every explanation we've been given over the reasons for this ban.

Quote:

Particularly in light of Swami's demands that Phluck related to us in another WA&F thread, it is hard to come to a resolve on reducing the ban because he has in effect exhibited that he has learned next to nothing from this experience, and rather has concentrated his efforts on trying to win over his own freedom through argument and debate rather than through compromise.



What was he supposed to have learned? Why should he compromise when he hasn't broken any rules?(Feel free to prove me wrong here. No one has so far.)


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3510149 - 12/16/04 05:47 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"Why should he compromise?"

Absolutely, Swami is in such a strong position, he should press his advantage.  :crazy:


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3510154 - 12/16/04 05:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

My understanding is that this was his ONLY warning

No, it was definitely not his first warning on the issue.


--------------------
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: trendal]
    #3510284 - 12/16/04 06:15 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

You'll have to talk to him about that. He claims he got only 1 vague PM from you, not the "countless" warnings you claim to have given him.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3510598 - 12/16/04 07:25 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"You'll have to talk to him about that. He claims he got only one vague warning from you"

Good idea.

Debate based on heresay is pointless, particularly as the PMs involved are not for public consumption.

No offense dude, but why not just chill as you say.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3511075 - 12/16/04 08:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

>> Debate based on heresay is pointless

That it is. Forward. Gotta go "---------->". If you want to go "---------->", you must stop going "<-----------". Debate on hearsay is "<----------". "<----------" is not the correct direction.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3511080 - 12/16/04 08:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rumor has it that I will be banned permanently for merely asking pointed questions about my incarceration. Especially after I point out the major lies:

Countless PMed warnings: = 1 in the last few months

Banned from another website: fabrication

Practically told Trendal to fuck-off: I will post my POLITE response unedited in it's entirety.

I notice that few seem to care that Huehuecoyotl has left for good because of repression.







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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3511612 - 12/16/04 11:19 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Sure people "should" be tough skinned, and ignore other people.

Psilygirl gave up on posting certain things because she didn't want to see her thread derailed. That's too bad she feels that way, she may have some great ideas.

Telling her to toughen up and use the ignore function seems a little harsh. What I got from her post is that she was trying to be impartial in that she wasn't a regular here. She gave an honest opinion of her reaction to reading the thread.







well thats exactly my point. I'm sure Swami is very intelligent and contributes many great things or whatever to S&P, just like pinky may contribute to PA&L.

I however gave up posting in PA&L because no matter what scientific arguments I gave for environmental issues, I got told I was wrong and there wasnt enough evidence and basically got the boot. Which is ridiculous. So I never go in there anymore, which is too bad because I think alot of people could benefit with the sort of environmental background I might bring to the table, and it's something that matters alot to me that I pursue IRL. But it's pointless if I'm just gonna get flamed and told I'm wrong by one person.

So I understand where the anti-Swami people are coming from. they might have a good idea that others may like, but whats the point if Swamis just gonna jump in there and say "no you're wrong I'm right" all the damn time?

Some people are just really full of themselves and think they know everything and should chill the fuck out and let others discover their own ideas without the fear of their ideas being derailed because one random dude "knows all."

my .02


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Psilygirl]
    #3511727 - 12/16/04 11:39 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Pinky, like Swami, has an abbrasive, confrontational style that you need to get used to, and that's why I reccomend the ignore feature for people who can't hand with that style. It's not flaming, though some may take it that way, and I admit pinky seems to have a little too much confidence in his own convictions(much more so than Swami, I'd say), but he always backs his arguments with sources, which can also make him a real son-of-a-bitch to argue with. I know because I came to libertarianism largely as a result of losing so many arguments with him. I personally would love to see you contribute some of your environmental knowledge to PAL. You can still contribute a lot without having to respond to pinky, just as someone in S&P can contribute a lot without having to respond to Swami. Like pinky, Swami does not merely say "I'm right, you're wrong"(that's actually closer to what a lot of his detractors say).

I like to be Swami-like a lot of the time, too--calling people on their ideas and assumptions, and I've probably been more disrespectful about it at times than I've ever seen Swami get. I don't think I've ever seen Swami call Christianity a fairy tale or call an idea bullshit, yet I can't say the same for myself. I'm not proud of this, you understand, but I'm saying if that I'm probably more deserving of this ban than Swami, as are many people, including many of his detractors.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3511793 - 12/16/04 11:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

yeah it just sucks cause even when I DO back up with sources, pinky will call my sources not legit anyways... it will be a legit government-run research project and then I'll get rejected by some fox news article or something.......

so all i'm saying is I understand how others might feel, sometimes its just a hopeless cause. one overly dominant personality with a closed mind can ruin things for alot of people trying to express their ideas.

and i personally dont really want to use the ignore feature because...well, I dont. I like to be aware of my surroundings instead of being in ignorance.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Psilygirl]
    #3513423 - 12/17/04 11:57 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Shit... If I was Swami I would not even come back after the ban. Total Bullshit.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3513942 - 12/17/04 02:04 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Swami, is that you? Skorp was right, he CAN communicate with the banned...

"Rumor has it that I will be banned permanently for merely asking pointed questions about my incarceration."

Rumor, isn't that anecdotal heresay?

Banned permanently? You haven't even been unbanned yet. Your getting banned permanently is a hypothetical situation.

"Especially after I point out the major lies"

It sounds like this will be a long drawn out "trial". Have you contacted Frog to handle your defense?


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
    #3514499 - 12/17/04 04:44 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

That's right, it's all a big contest. Swami vs. The Admins, SMACKDOWN, only on Pay Per View, order now, etc etc. What a gong show. If the problem is with people being oversensitive and reactionary to other people's posts, why is it okay for so many people to get their knickers in a knot over a temporary ban? It's just some silly website, after all. I'm sure Swami has many more important things in his life than The Shroomery. Don't you?


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
    #3514544 - 12/17/04 04:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

On what basis do you compare an unjust ban to those demanding a ban for someone who has broken no rules?


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3514730 - 12/17/04 05:59 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

The thing I find most amusing about this whole situation...

There are some people in this thread that won't accept ANY answer.

People have demanded an explinatiopn... they got one... not good enough.

People asked for proof... they got some... not good enough.

People asked for an apology... they got one... not good enough.

People asked for honesty... They got it by the truckload... not good enough.

I ask ANYONE who is still upset at this situation to look at what you asked for EARLY in this thread... you have been given EVERYTHING you asked for... sorry if THAT isn't good enough.

If you must keep arguing even AFTER you got what you wanted... it makes me wonder why on Earth you are still arguing.

My favorite thing: People taking Swami's word over the Mods and the Admins.

Trust me... the mods and Admins AGREE on this situation... we aren't MORONS (most of us :smile: ). If we all came to a conclusion about Swami... and the Staff and Admin still stand together... because WE KNOW that the evidence we have is real, why can't some people get it through their thick skulls that WE AREN'T BULLSHITTING you.

This isn't directed at you Silver, I just replied to your post because it was the last one... and I am trying to talk to SEVERAL people who have been making demands... getting what they asked for... and STILL complaining. Let me remind you guys, DRAMA takes OUR TIME. If you want Swami's ban lifted early, and it looks like that WILL happen, stop slowing the process down with irrational demands. Especially after the admins GAVE YOU WHAT YOU WANTED.

The Staff would have to MAKE THINGS UP in order to satisfy some of your demands... we simply WILL NOT do that. What we have said, as Staff and Admin, in this thread is honest.

Do we have a lot of proof? No. Was Swami banned for too long? Yes. Will his ban be lifted early? Probably. Was Swami scentenced too harshly? Yes. Are we sorry? Yes. Did we fuck up? Perhaps.

What more can we do?

I think I'm done with this thread too...

It is getting redundant.

It is getting redundant.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3514734 - 12/17/04 06:00 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

You're sounding a little redundant there, Cervantes.  :stoned:

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: MOTH]
    #3514752 - 12/17/04 06:05 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

That last post was brought to you by the National Dept of Redundancy Dept.

Oops... I'm done with this thread... I forgot. :wink:


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3514779 - 12/17/04 06:16 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I just had a thought...

Why don't we keep S&P as is, except place a notice in the forum rules that if you do not want your views challenged then to post in OTD or the Pub...

I see philosophical/spiritual posts in the Pub all the time as a general sharing of ideas, and they never erupt into debate. (well, hardly ever)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: MOTH]
    #3515069 - 12/17/04 08:15 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Cervantes I wish you could cut the shit and just look at this objectively.

Swami was banned by people who never got along with him.

After swami was banned an overwhelming majority spoke out against the banning.

Now you sit here trying to defend it as some righteous act. As much as you wish you had some kind of secret privy info that can justify this, "secret PMs", "untold of warnings!!"... the facts are that everyone sees what swami writes, and everyone knows what the hell is going on, and we are pissed that he got banned. Just see it for what it is... an injustice.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Psilygirl]
    #3515074 - 12/17/04 08:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Psilygirl writes:

"I however gave up posting in PA&L because no matter what scientific arguments I gave for environmental issues, I got told I was wrong and there wasnt enough evidence and basically got the boot."

I've read this whole thread and refrained from saying anything at all about prior references to myself because this thread isn't about me or PA&L, it's about Swami and S&P.

However, since my name has now been mentioned several times in this thread I think I am justified in pointing out that a look at Psilygirl's perceptions of how she was treated in the global warming thread may shed some light on the reason why this action re Swami is being so fiercely debated.




"...no matter what scientific arguments I gave for environmental issues..."

Psilygirl didn't always give exclusively scientific arguments that human activity is contributing to global warming. Some of her posts were "appeal to authority" type comments -- "the consensus of the scientific community is..." kind of thing.

"...I got told I was wrong..."

I didn't just tell her "she was wrong", I pointed out the fact (and yes it is a fact) that many scientists remain unconvinced that human activity is causing global warming. I further mentioned data -- not opinion, or speculation or models or projections or estimates mind you, but data -- from weather balloons and satellites showing there has been no temperature increase since these measurements have been started. I also mentioned that some of the peer-reviewed articles have been shown to be erroneous in that they use bad methodology, faulty mathematical analysis (i.e the broken "hockey stick" example), inbuilt bias in some of the computer models, etc. I also mentioned it has been confirmed that the sun is currently going through one of its more active phases in terms of output. More heat from the sun = more heat on earth.

I should also mention I am not the only one who has brought these and other easily-checked facts to the table of discussion on global warming. There have been numerous threads in PA&L on this topic. Psilygirl probably hasn't seen them all. She may not have seen any of them.

"...and there wasnt enough evidence..."

Here's the thing. There is apparently enough evidence that humans are causing global warming to satisfy her. The point is, there is not enough evidence to satisfy me or several other frequent posters in PA&L or for that matter many, MANY scientists either. She feels browbeaten because she feels the evidence in favor of her position isn't given enough weight by myself and others, yet she has no qualms about giving no weight at all to the evidence (and yes, it is evidence -- evidence as good as and often more scientifically rigorous than some of the speculations from her sources) I and others bring to the table. She is convinced of her position and sees any opposing views as instantly dismissable. She came right out and said the balloon and satellite data was meaningless. Although apparently I must accept her "evidence" at face value with no questioning, she feels no such compunction to do the same with mine, because global warming is REAL, dammit!

"...and basically got the boot."

That's just wrong. I've debated the same issue with others, they weren't given the boot. Neither was Psilygirl. She got frustrated the evidence she presented didn't instantly convert us skeptics and bailed. No one -- least of all me -- "gave her the boot".

"Some people are just really full of themselves and think they know everything and should chill the fuck out and let others discover their own ideas without the fear of their ideas being derailed because one random dude "knows all."

Indeed, Psilygirl. You are convinced that you know global warming due to human action is actually occurring. You know everything about global warming -- I know nothing. You can't possibly be in error, it must be me who's too stupid to buy your assertions. I know nothing about satellite data or solar cycles or faulty statistical analysis -- because damn it, global warming is real!. Therefore, the only reason I am debating you must be because either

a: I am a dickhead
b: I am too stupid to see you are right

Maybe Psilygirl started the thread just assuming we would all accept as a given that global warming is real, in the same way we all agree the War on Drugs is wrong. The thing is, we don't all agree with her premise, and that surprise may have affected her perception on the nature of the responses she received.



So how is this relevant to the Swami situation? Because it's all about perceptions. Psilygirl's perception of what occurred in that thread differs from that of mine and the others who don't see her arguments as convincing. The same thing occurs in threads in which Swami participates. People often have a lot invested in their particular belief system, especially their personal spiritual belief system, and when it is questioned they are not always able to separate themselves from their beliefs. "That guy is treating me mean!" Well... maybe he is. But maybe he isn't. Maybe someone looking in on the discussion doesn't see any meanness, because he has nothing invested in the topic under discussion and can instead dispassionately examine the relative values of the arguments being presented and come to his own conclusions.

Don't take any of this to mean I am on Swami's side or that I am against Swami. I've read too few of his posts in S&P to have a valid opinion on this one way or the other. I merely used posts in which my name appeared to make a point about how the two sides in this standoff perceive things differently.



pinky


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phred]
    #3515094 - 12/17/04 08:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I certainly didnt mean to hijack this thread towards you and I don't think what *really* went down in that thread really matters in regards to this....

I was simply stating how I understand how others might feel in regards to being trivialized by Swami, since alot of liberals and environmentalists might feel trivialized by you in PA&L. 

I didn't mean to get this thread off topic, I was just stating a personal example and I don't think this is the place for an argument on global warming! :lol:

sorry to have riled you up pinky, I was just using a personal experience to compare the situations at hand.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Psilygirl]
    #3515100 - 12/17/04 08:30 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I was just using a personal experience to compare the situations at hand.




As was I.



pinky


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Psilygirl]
    #3515126 - 12/17/04 08:45 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I was simply stating how I understand how others might feel in regards to being trivialized by Swami, since alot of liberals and environmentalists might feel trivialized by you in PA&L.




And that is exactly why this situation is such a tricky one -- this has little to do with objectivity and everything to do with feelings. "Trivialized", huh? There's a loaded term!

Those who believe Swami was unjustly disciplined are asking for objective proof he broke rules. How can one objectively show that Swami's posts hurt someone's feelings? One cannot -- one can only take the word of the person claiming to have been hurt. Some examples have been brought up in this thread (and in others) only to be pooh-poohed by the Swami supporters --

"Well, hell... how can you say that is a personal slam. I certainly wouldn't call it one!"

Well... that may be true. He might not see it that way. But obviously the person affected did see it that way or he wouldn't have taken the trouble to PM a mod or an admin about it.

Ped's points here are correct. At least part of the problem is that some people are choosing to take offense at Swami's remarks. Someone else who had been handed the same remark might have taken no offense. On the other hand, it is possible that Swami is deliberately attempting to provoke that kind of reaction. I repeat that I haven't read enough of Swami's posts myself to form a valid opinion on the matter, but I've seen enough posts from people who have read a ton of his work to conclude they aren't just making stuff up. Some people honestly believe Swami is denigrating them. The relevant question is -- what action (if any) should the moderators take to address this honestly perceived denigration?

Again I will note that this is mainly a question of perception. I find that apropos considering this is a site dedicated to spreading information on a substance whose major effect is on perception. Is that ironic or not?


pinky


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OfflinePed
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phred]
    #3515166 - 12/17/04 09:05 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

>> On what basis do you compare an unjust ban to those demanding a ban for someone who has broken no rules?

It's not necessary to blame anybody by making any such comparison. The whole situation is very unfortunate for everyone involved.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phred]
    #3515184 - 12/17/04 09:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:Ped's points here are correct. At least part of the problem is that some people are choosing to take offense at Swami's remarks. Someone else who had been handed the same remark might have taken no offense. On the other hand, it is possible that Swami is deliberately attempting to provoke that kind of reaction. I repeat that I haven't read enough of Swami's posts myself to form a valid opinion on the matter, but I've seen enough posts from people who have read a ton of his work to conclude they aren't just making stuff up. Some people honestly believe Swami is denigrating them. The relevant question is -- what action (if any) should the moderators take to address this honestly perceived denigration?

Again I will note that this is mainly a question of perception. I find that apropos considering this is a site dedicated to spreading information on a substance whose major effect is on perception. Is that ironic or not?


pinky




so true :thumbup:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: looner2]
    #3515825 - 12/18/04 12:16 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

My dog likes to keep barking at the mailman... for 10 minutes after the guy leaves. It serves no purpose... I guess the dog just likes to bark.

Funny thing is... excepting Sundays, the mailman always returns, and the process begins again.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
    #3515847 - 12/18/04 12:23 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
That's right, it's all a big contest.  Swami vs. The Admins, SMACKDOWN, only on Pay Per View, order now, etc etc. 




Or, get it on DVD, starring Skorpi G, Master Ped, Deffman, Swami G, FireworksMasta and more!



:wink:


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3516574 - 12/18/04 08:05 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3517241 - 12/18/04 01:35 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

As usual a well thought out and articulate view it is. I myself have never taken offense at Swami nor at anytime felt he was attacking ME, just my position. I can however see where his (sometimes) somewhat abrasive approach could concievably get under someone's skin with a slightly more sensitive constitution to that sort of thing than i possess. In any case, I myself don't think he should have been banned, just my .02


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