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InvisibleRavus
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The Fourth Dimension
    #3494345 - 12/13/04 11:00 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

There has been made the analogy on this forum, and in many trying to understand perception beyond three dimensions, of a 2D man seeing a 3D shape. If a sphere passed through 2D land while 2D man was watching, he'd see a point come out of nothing, grow into a circle and then shrink back into a point, finally disappearing again. He would not see a sphere, rather just 2D planes of that sphere, so that his image of a sphere in his mind would just be a 2D point growing into a circle, and then back into a point. He would not be able to conceive of a sphere because it requires depth, which he has never perceived in his land of simple height and width

Now, people try to apply this to us, but they make the assumption that the fourth dimension is spatial often, when the fourth dimension is time, which is not conceived as spatial in the traditional sense of the word. Time intersects these three dimensions, but we can only see a small 3D plane of it, and have a very limited view of it because we have never seen time. That is why time seems to only move in one direction, and why it never fully makes sense to us. Time is the 3D sphere moving through 2D land, but instead of seeing just points and circles, we see forward motion of 3D objects, rather than the true nature of the fourth dimension

I doubt we can ever see time truely as it is, just like a 2D man can't see a sphere as it is, unless he can somehow rise out of the paper and enter an extra dimension, or we can rise out of this 3D vision and enter the world of full time


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: Ravus]
    #3494746 - 12/14/04 12:14 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I agree, our brains can not wrap their head around this fully.

My thoughts are as follows:

That third dimention is two the 2D man as our time dimention is to us.
Meaning if we were 4D beings, we would experience our current time dimention as a spatial one.

Agree?


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: oceansize]
    #3496811 - 12/14/04 01:26 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Do you think, then, as 3 dimensional creatures we cannot travel through time since we perceive it as linear?


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Offlinetomk
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: DNKYD]
    #3497170 - 12/14/04 02:41 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Time is entropy change, nothing more.

A 2d person can see the entirety of a sphere, by completing 1 full orbit for each of the infinitely many planes intersecting the sphere as the sphere travels through the plane.

Time and space are fundementally different (though related). Let me illustrate. First, from 2-D to 3-D. Take a flatlander (2d being) in a box. Suppose this flatlander has always been in this box and this box has always existed. Well, travel through time would not help the flatlander escape the box, while travel through the third dimension would (lift him out into the 3 d and then set him back in his plane). Since the 3rd spatial dimension allows a route of escape and the temporal direction does not, then time and the n+1 dimension in an n dimensional land must be different.

Likewise, we can imagine a person in an eternal box in our 3 dimensional land. Moving foward or backward through the 4th dimension would allow escape, but moving foward or backward in time would not allow escape. Ergo, time is different from the fourth dimension.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: tomk]
    #3497797 - 12/14/04 04:42 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It's rather odd that you say that, because it would be assuming that the 2D man could cross into the third dimension. As it is, if a 3D object moved across the 2D land of his, it would not help him rise out of it at all, it would just appear to be growing and shrinking of 2D shapes

Perhaps if you could rise out of this dimension completely and into the fourth dimension, like the 2D person not only seeing the 2D image of the 3D shape passing through, but going into the third dimension, then you could escape the third dimension. Time would not be just a forward process of entropy, as we perceive it to be, but rather we could move in more directions than just one, and could rise into a state incomprehensible to this simple three dimensions with four dimensional entropy passing through

"A 2d person can see the entirety of a sphere, by completing 1 full orbit for each of the infinitely many planes intersecting the sphere as the sphere travels through the plane."

Like that would really help them?  :wink:

Of course, one debate is whether the fourth dimension is truely non-spatial, or we just perceive it that way. When a sphere passes through 2D land, it seems to have non-depth, just flat movement. So perhaps entropy (a fourth dimensional concept, like the sphere to us 3Ds?) passing through our three dimensions seems to be just "time", a force that moves us only forward, but in reality that is just our perception of it, and it could be fourth dimensional spatial that we cannot see by the limit of the human mind

If string theory is true, there are at least 11 dimensions. When viewed from that perspective, time may seem to be just as spatial as width or height, but in a way that would defy all space as we see it right now. We are very limited in our perception of "What is", as it really is just "What appears to be to us."


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: Ravus]
    #3498283 - 12/14/04 06:09 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Umm... please offer an example of a 2D plane.

Paper and drawings do not count, as these are clearly 3D.

The entire concept of our dimensions, imo, is flawed :smile:

Seperating open spatial volume into three right-angled planes seems natural, but this concept exists purely as a concept and not accountable through experience.

Any classification is assuming the objective quality. Time and space (the concepts) can be seperated easily from our experiences, and classified as seperate "dimensions". However, length width and height are merely human inventions :cool:

So often the abstract replaces what created it :smile:


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Invisibletak
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: deff]
    #3498634 - 12/14/04 06:59 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

If a man existed in 2D, he would have more worries that looking at a sphere. What about the 1D man, what is he doing?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: deff]
    #3498701 - 12/14/04 07:09 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I realize it is all theoretical, there is no such thing as a 2D man in this universe. Even the photons that let us see the color on the matter have a miniscule depth, even the drawings have the thickness of the lead from the pencil. My point was to show a theoretically 2D man's view of the 3D so we could perhaps get a concept of our 3D view of the 4D, not to say that true 2D or 3D or 4D are real.

And I realize a 2D man could not exist, again it is all theoretical  :wink: No need to pick apart analogies when they are only a representation


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: Ravus]
    #3498820 - 12/14/04 07:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
No need to pick apart analogies when they are only a representation




:thumbup:  :grin:


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OfflineMylz
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: tomk]
    #3499119 - 12/14/04 08:06 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
Time is entropy change, nothing more.

A 2d person can see the entirety of a sphere, by completing 1 full orbit for each of the infinitely many planes intersecting the sphere as the sphere travels through the plane.

Time and space are fundementally different (though related).  Let me illustrate.  First, from 2-D to 3-D.  Take a flatlander (2d being) in a box.  Suppose this flatlander has always been in this box and this box has always existed.  Well, travel through time would not help the flatlander escape the box, while travel through the third dimension would (lift him out into the 3 d and then set him back in his plane).  Since the 3rd spatial dimension allows a route of escape and the temporal direction does not, then time and the n+1 dimension in an n dimensional land must be different.

Likewise, we can imagine a person in an eternal box in our 3 dimensional land.  Moving foward or backward through the 4th dimension would allow escape, but moving foward or backward in time would not allow escape.  Ergo, time is different from the fourth dimension.




Categorizing time into something as linear as back-and-forth is exactly the problem with this theory IMHO.  Every second, are there not a billion different possiblities for even so much as a cubic city block? Moving through time could most definately be spatial, forward and backward being travelling forward and backward through one of the billions of outcomes possible, and sideways to travel between the billions of alternate realities; almost like your body moving through billions of air molecules during a walk through the park.  Diagonal is self-explanatory in this.  Also, theoretically in a trully 2D world, there would be no depth and the sphere would remain the same size no matter where in the world it went, would it not? :wink: Our addition of depth into the 2D cartoons we make comes from our understanding and knowledge of our own 3D world, so the 2D world containing depth would be like us having elements of a 4D world :yesnod:


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: Mylz]
    #3501211 - 12/15/04 01:15 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

You are missing the point.  The sphere exists in the third dimention, but is manifest as circles in the second.

Dimentions, or at least all of those lower than that which your perspective is in, are linear.  Give me an example of something moving in only one dimention (x,y or z) that does not take a linear path.  :shocked:

String theory is of interest in this, because I often see the 11 dimentions theorized in it represented as 10 + time


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: oceansize]
    #3503871 - 12/15/04 03:52 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I just meant, classifying our spatial reality into three dimensions itself is a 'flawed concept', not just the 2D concept itself.

I understand the point of this thread, and it offers a great model for understanding how time appears to act as a temporal "dimension" relative to our "three spatial ones", and I agree with that itself.

I'm just offering my personal views on the entire concept of dimensions to begin with, not that this changes the analogy :smile:. I think that relating experience to '3 dimensions' (4 including time) is limiting. A cube appears to have 3 spatial dimensions (l, w, h), but humans have a strange fascination with symmetry, right angles, and squares.

Take the sphere as a model instead :cool:


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: deff]
    #3505331 - 12/15/04 08:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I understand- you hesitate to use the linear dimentions, but I think it is best to stick to them for lack of a better (any, for that matter) system for describing space

spheres can still be put directly into terms of x y and z, im just not so good with 3 variable equations :wink:


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: oceansize]
    #3506171 - 12/15/04 10:28 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

they can be put into infinite numbers of dimensions, as many as are percieved :wink:

Nothing wrong with using the 3D model, but confusing it as an aspect of "objective reality" seems a little off :cool:


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: deff]
    #3506249 - 12/15/04 10:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

You describe to me a sphere in even 4 dimentions, let alone 5,6,7...to infinityD,  i'll give you a fish or cigar or doler or something. :wink:

We can completely. exhaust our knowledge of the macroscopic realm and not need to abandon a 3D model that corresponds directly to objective reality.  I see your point, but if a 'little off' hasn't failed us yet, its not so bad.


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Offlinetomk
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: oceansize]
    #3508393 - 12/16/04 01:11 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

A n-sphere (sphere in n dimensions) is a shape whith extension in n dimensions, where each boundry point is equadistance from the center.

"We can completely. exhaust our knowledge of the macroscopic realm and not need to abandon a 3D model that corresponds directly to objective reality."

Take three laser beams. Put one of them on Pluto, one of them on the surface of the sun, and one on earth. They form a triangle. The interior angles of that triangle add up to more then 180 degrees. This could be because our 3 space is bent in a fourth dimension. The same way you could have a 2-d surface where the angles of a triangle add up to 270, namely the triangle formed on the surface of a sphere between it's equator and axis. But, if our 3 space is bent into a fourth spacial dimension, then there has to be a fourth spacial dimension, so the fourth dimension can't be time. The 3-d model gets lots of stuff wrong.

Ohh, let me settle this mystery once and for all. String theory is gonna ultimately be wrong. In about ten years, the results of some experiments will come that will verify quantum loop gravity, a competitor of string theory, and we will all learn that space is discrete, not continuous, time is discrete, not continuous, and string theory is false. So don't worry about string theory, read about quantum loop gravity.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: tomk]
    #3508444 - 12/16/04 01:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
read about quantum loop gravity.




Sounds interesting. I want to google it later. Thanks. If I find some interesting sites on it, I'll post the links here.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (12/16/04 01:25 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3509378 - 12/16/04 05:26 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

If anyone wanted to take tomks suggestion to explore/understand quantum loop gravity, here are a few links.

http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-1998-1/RovelliLivrev.html

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/16/11/9


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (12/16/04 05:26 PM)


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Invisibletak
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: tomk]
    #3509960 - 12/16/04 07:13 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
The same way you could have a 2-d surface where the angles of a triangle add up to 270, namely the triangle formed on the surface of a sphere between it's equator and axis.




A sphere is 3-d.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: The Fourth Dimension [Re: tak]
    #3510109 - 12/16/04 07:40 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i might recommend reading the book "Flatland" for an interesting foray into some of these topics...


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