Home | Community | Message Board


Mushrooms.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop: Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Environmental policy
    #3494075 - 12/13/04 10:17 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I'm reading a book and ran across the following text.

Quote:

If distortions are eliminated, the market should respond perfectly to their "votes," expressed in dollars or some counterpart. The value of a person's interests is measured the same way. In particular, the interests of those with no votes are valued at zero: future generations, for example.




I read on the Libertarian site www.lp.org their stand on the environment. It was an article by Dr. Mary Ruwart which states that private organisations will have much better environmental records than the government.

Here's the final paragraph.

Quote:

The environment would benefit immensely from the elimination of sovereign immunity coupled with the privatization of "land and beast." The third and final step in the libertarian program to save the environment is the use of restitution both as a deterrent and a restorative. Next month's column will feature the second part of the Pollution Solution, answering the question: "How would libertarians keep our air and water clean?"




I couldn't find the second part on lp.org so if someone has a link please post it.

If a large company owns land and polutes on it knowing the effects will not surface or cause harm until many decades or centuries later how do Libertarians deal with that situation? Do Libertarians believe that even though it is their (the company's) land their actions will have a global affect and thus should be regulated?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,284
Loc: oakland
Re: Environmental policy [Re: cb9fl]
    #3494142 - 12/13/04 10:29 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

On a similar note - in the eloquent words of E.K. Hunt -
Quote:


The Achilles heel of welfare economics is its treatment of externalities. ... When reference is made to externalities, one usually takes as a typical example an upwind factory that emits large quantities of sulfur oxides and particulate matter inducing rising probabilities of emphysema, lung cancer, and other respiratory disease to residents downwind, or a strip-mining operation that leaves an irreparable aesthetic scar on the countryside. The fact is, however, that most of the millions of acts of production and consumption in which we daily engage involve externalities. In a market economy any action of one individual or enterprise which induces pleasure or pain to any other individual or enterprise constitutes an externality. Since the vast majority of productive and consumptive acts are social, i.e., to some degree they involve more than one person, it follows that they will involve externalities. Our table manners in a restaurant, the general appearance of our house, our yard or our person, our personal hygiene, the route we pick for a joy ride, the time of day we mow our lawn, or nearly anyy of the thousands of ordinary daily acts, all affect, to some degree, the pleasures or happiness of others. The fact is externalities are totally pervasive





or in the hell-of-a-lot easier to understand words of Michael Albert -
Quote:


External effects are the rule rather than the exception





I am certainly no libertarian, and so cannot attempt to answer your question, but I agree that it is a very interesting point to raise, and would like to see some response as well.


--------------------




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Environmental policy [Re: cb9fl]
    #3494199 - 12/13/04 10:37 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think government or private enterprise, if left to their own
devices, would ever honestly be expected to do a good job of this.

the government's record on waste management is deplorable.

further, I don't think that voting with my dollar is going to make much
difference 20 years down the line when a private organization took
carte blanche in their own waste management, fucked it all up and
left someone else holding the bag.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Environmental policy [Re: cb9fl]
    #3494209 - 12/13/04 10:38 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

The Libertarian Party supports polluter fines which hold people individually accountable for their actions. Air, Land, and Water present an interesting dilemna in property rights, since they are not the product of human effort and affect people outside of set boundaries. There was a time when people viewed themselves a stewards of the land, which was seen as belonging to God. While we need not involve a deity in the equation, it does strike me that perhaps we need some semblance of that attitude in modern society. Several classic liberal thinkers, including Adam Smith and John Locke, noted that landed property held a slightly different status than acquired private property. Pollution on one's own land can have negative consequences for people elsewhere, so land cannot have status as absolute private property.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Environmental policy [Re: silversoul7]
    #3494238 - 12/13/04 10:43 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Does the Libertarian party have a defined set of standards from which individuals, government and companies can be held accountable? And do they have a defined set of fines?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Environmental policy [Re: cb9fl]
    #3494268 - 12/13/04 10:48 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think they're that specific in their platform, but the fines would apply equally to people in government or business, or individuals acting alone.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Environmental policy [Re: cb9fl]
    #3494275 - 12/13/04 10:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

the libertarian party has done a very poor job of defining just how it would address the issue of pollution. pollution generally seems to be one of the blind spots of libertarian theory.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Environmental policy [Re: silversoul7]
    #3494286 - 12/13/04 10:51 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Who would be in charge of enforcing said fines and how would that organization be funded?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Environmental policy [Re: cb9fl]
    #3494444 - 12/13/04 11:17 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I'm fairly certain that regular law enforcement could handle such a job, especially after victimless crimes like drugs, gambling, and prostitution become legal. Like most crimes, this would be handled on a state or local level. As far as funding goes, I'm partial to the idea of a consumption tax, as this would also prevent overconsumption.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Environmental policy [Re: cb9fl]
    #3494583 - 12/13/04 11:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I don't like the libertarian idea of privatizing all public lands (and beast?) as a market solution to pollution or managing the environment. Something about it just isn't kosher, it grants superior rights to some on a first come basis, ignoring the rights of all to share equally in what no person has created. No one should be granted privileges by the government, this includes the privilege of first right to land. However, I do agree that restitution as a deterrent and restorative is a good idea. I like using common law as an organic process to arrive at solutions to problems as they arise and think that by and large it produces superior results to leaving decisions in the hands of professional politicians. I see no problem with treating landowners as stewards of the gifts of nature and see them as having a greater responsibility because they are given a greater privilege.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinekadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 9 months, 5 days
Re: Environmental policy [Re: Autonomous]
    #3494695 - 12/14/04 12:03 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

well despite the gov's dishonesty and i know this will nto make much sense.

i would prefer land to be "governemnt" owned, but actualyl publicly owned. gov fucks it up but i still would prefer it over buisness, even if gov is a buisness.

gotta have some faith in knowing your words can have some sort of meaning, and i realise they dont...


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Environmental policy [Re: kadakuda]
    #3494802 - 12/14/04 12:24 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I don't quite understand what you are saying. I wouldn't have a problem granting long term conditional leases to private individuals or groups, or creating land trusts to be managed by private individuals or groups. Is this anywhere along the lines of what you are saying?


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: Environmental policy [Re: ]
    #3496240 - 12/14/04 09:34 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

mushmaster writes:

pollution generally seems to be one of the blind spots of libertarian theory.

It isn't a "blind spot" so much as it is an irreconcilable fact of nature that living organisms alter their surrounding environment through the simple act of existing. Ethanol is nothing more than yeast excrement when you get right down to it.

Humans must pollute in order to survive -- wishing otherwise won't change that fact. The act of lighting a cooking fire releases pollution into our shared atmosphere and humans can't survive without fire.

The reason there are no clearcut boundaries in Libertarian writings on the subject is that there are no clearcut boundaries from any source. The question has never been "should we allow pollution" -- we have no choice in the matter. The question is "what level of pollution should we allow". And that is a completely different kettle of fish. Our knowledge at this point in time is not sufficiently complete to give a definitive answer. It is more than a scientific question as well. It's actually a question of cost/benefit and as such will always be open to debate.


pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Environmental policy [Re: Phred]
    #3496242 - 12/14/04 09:37 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Our knowledge at this point in time is not sufficiently complete to give a definitive answer.




That is definately a valid point but since it is likely that human understand will never be sufficiently complete how do Libertarians deal with the knowledge we have at this point.

Quote:

It's actually a question of cost/benefit and as such will always be open to debate.




Does the cost to future generations factor into this cost/benefit?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: Environmental policy [Re: cb9fl]
    #3496371 - 12/14/04 11:04 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

cb9fl writes:

That is definately a valid point but since it is likely that human understand will never be sufficiently complete how do Libertarians deal with the knowledge we have at this point.

There is no solid consensus on it in Libertarian circles though most agree that private citizens tend to be better stewards of the land than governments do. Think of "the tragedy of the commons" concept.

Does the cost to future generations factor into this cost/benefit?

Certainly. If it were not a factor the decision would be a no-brainer. This in fact is one of the greatest factors in the Libertarian preference for private stewardship -- politicians tend to think on a far more short-term scale than do private investors. It's a rare politician indeed who thinks further than the next election. In totalitarian counries there isn't even that as a limiting factor. It's no surprise the countries with the worst environmental messes are totalitarian ones.


pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Environmental policy [Re: Phred]
    #3496402 - 12/14/04 11:19 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

It just seems to me from reading the Libertarian site and this
Quote:


Certainly. If it were not a factor the decision would be a no-brainer. This in fact is one of the greatest factors in the Libertarian preference for private stewardship -- politicians tend to think on a far more short-term scale than do private investors.




that instead of creating policies and dealing with the actual environmental issues Libertarians tend to say "well everything will be better once we get the government out of it."

I don't have a solution which is why I look to people in power or those that hope to be in power to deal with environmental issues. I look to them to create specific policies to effectively deal with greed and shortsightedness with regards to the environment.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

Amazon Shop: Scales

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Libertarians, Land Ownership and Sucession... retread 594 6 09/29/04 10:52 PM
by retread
* Libertarians & Greens to Debate in Miami
( 1 2 3 all )
Ancalagon 3,260 49 10/04/04 12:12 AM
by Gijith
* Libertarianism and my .sig
( 1 2 3 all )
unbeliever
2,601 41 10/05/04 06:58 PM
by Ancalagon
* Libertarians?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Libertine 11,003 156 08/17/08 07:28 PM
by ScavengerType
* Questions about libertarians DigitalDuality 1,216 13 09/18/04 07:44 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* Non-Ron Paul supporters: Do you understand libertarianism? Really? Visionary Tools 1,045 8 02/15/12 12:43 PM
by BobTheFreemason
* ron paul and the environment JonnyOnTheSpot 532 1 08/10/07 01:29 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* 34 Libertarian arguments debunked silversoul7 1,770 7 05/09/03 07:06 AM
by Phred

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil
611 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
FreeSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.041 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 18 queries.