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InvisiblePinback
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Mushroom extracts in casing layer
    #3493623 - 12/13/04 09:14 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I recently decided, with inspiration from The Mushroom Cultivator (page 357-358), to try and see what effect mushroom extracts have in the casing layer of Psilocybe cubensis.

What I tried first was kind of badly planned. I did a hot water extraction of small pieces of an unknown amount of P. cubensis, strained it with a coarse (compared to filter paper) tea filter, and used this water for one half of a casing, and regular tap water for the other half. The result was that the side with the mushroom extract pinned both earlier and more, although I did not weigh it and compare.

Strain was a PESH isolate, substrate was popcorn, cased with coir/verm. Only mature mushrooms were used in the extract, which makes it a bit different from the text in TMC. The left side is the side with the extraction...



It can be hard to see a reason for using, and losing, P. cubensis just to make an early and nice pinset, so I did the experiment again. This time I used two separate extractions, of both P. cubensis, and Agaricus bisporus, the common button mushroom.

The extractions were made by slicing and then drying the mushrooms at room temperature, which were later manually broken to small pieces. These pieces were steeped in 100 ml of just boiled water for approximately 10 minutes and then strained off with a tea filter.

All casings were made from 7 g coir, 70 ml of the still warm extract, and 10 g verm. The substrate used was millet and rye, and I used the same PESH isolate this time as well. The P. cubensis used in the extraction were all mature, and the A. bisporus were of the common white kind you can buy in grocery stores. All jars/casings were made with (approximately...) the same amount of substrate and inocula. They were cased at 2004-11-30, incubated till 2004-12-05, and then placed in the fruiting box.

The results so far, 2004-12-14:

Control casing, with tap water instead of extract:



P. cubensis extraction casing:



A. bisporus extraction casing:



Side by side:



I think the results are kind of neat, but I'm not sure if it will be of any practical use, at least not for P. cubensis. The gain in days to pinning is hardly worth the hassle with drying and extracting mushrooms. On the other hand, if it gives a better pinset with increased yield, it might be of some value. I haven't tried it with anything else then P. cubensis either, but as it says in TMC, it can be of value to hard-to-fruit species.

Comments, ideas, questions?


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Pinback]
    #3498298 - 12/14/04 06:11 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting experiment  :thumbup:
Have you already got any numbers regarding the difference in yield ?
What do you think is the reason why the casings watered with the extract do pin earlier ?


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: ragadinks]
    #3503570 - 12/15/04 02:44 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

No, no yield measurement yet. It will also be hard to directly compare the values, since I will have to harvest them at different times.

According to TMC, it might be the cAMP (cyclic adenosine monophosphate) in the extracts that induces the fruitbody formation. However, it can also be other things, at least in my experiment, since the extraction was extremely crude. Maybe such a simple thing as more nutrition.

An interesting thought regarding the caffeine thread and pinning is that caffeine in humans is an inhibitor to the enzyme phosphodiesterase, which converts cAMP to AMP. So one can speculate that the added caffeine will cause the cAMP in the mycelium to not be metabolized as fast, meaning it will stimulate fruitbody formation. Caffeine and mushroom extract (cAMP) might give the same result, but by different mechanisms. I'll have to try this again after christmas with pure caffeine too...

This is what it looked like 1.5 days after the last pictures (control -- P. cubensis extract -- A. bisporus extract):


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Pinback]
    #3503867 - 12/15/04 03:52 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

damn, looks nice. once i get a flush from my casings i will use part of it to try and induce an earlier second flush in one casing and have others for control.


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: iamgod]
    #3507692 - 12/16/04 08:56 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Unfortunately, I noticed some green mold on the A. bisporus extract casing today, so I tossed it.


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Pinback]
    #3508124 - 12/16/04 11:53 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Ive heard the compound(s) reponsible called cAMP and fruiting hormone "x".

I was going to grow Flammulina and making extractions for use with the King Oyster; perhaps also SRA and A. subrufescens if I get my act together.


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Pinback]
    #3509532 - 12/16/04 05:59 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The results look very impressive.
Another question: Can you sterilize the "L?tta" plastic boxes you use as a fruiting container at your pics ?


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Pinback]
    #3510008 - 12/16/04 07:23 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Very nice experiment.  I had considered doing a similar experiment.  This will be fun to watch.  If something similar is conducted here there will pictures and information posted.  Wouldn't be fair to science if at least a few more of us didn't join in.  :smile:

  What mass of mushrooms was used for the extract?  It might prove useful to find a lower threshold that will yield the same results.  If only a few grams of mushroom are needed to get similar results, then it might well be worth it.

  Keep up the good work.


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Alkaloids]
    #3510289 - 12/16/04 08:15 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

wrong thread, whoops


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Edited by elgr (12/17/04 12:09 PM)


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #3511837 - 12/17/04 01:58 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

An interesting thought regarding the caffeine thread and pinning is that caffeine in humans is an inhibitor to the enzyme phosphodiesterase, which converts cAMP to AMP. So one can speculate that the added caffeine will cause the cAMP in the mycelium to not be metabolized as fast, meaning it will stimulate fruitbody formation.




Unfortunately one has nothing to do with the other. The phosphodiesterase that caffeine inhibits is specific to the G-protein mediated K-channel mechanism of norepinephrine receptors.

As for the "x" hormone I believe it was noted that this could only be done with pins, not mature mushrooms, but I could be wrong.

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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #3512392 - 12/17/04 07:06 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

elgr said:
I'll join in once I've got enough that I can not weep losing 5 grams :smile:

http://mycotopia.net/discus/messages/5/154646.html?1093201399

(i'd post a shroomery link, but I'm not aware of any good ones for extraction purposes)

The guy who did this extraction dosed, and said it was threshold. The problem, was the fact that when it cooled, the crystals dropped to the bottom (as seen in the *awesome* pics). His dose was just the ratio of liquid he figured would be a good dose, without again heating it up and letting the crystals disolve in the liquid. He never posted his follow up. But the image of the crystals is enough to make me want to try this.

So, I'm thinking of doing the same thing. Instead of only waiting overnight, I'd wait a week (which others have recommended). Then heat via a double boiler (carefully) and while still hot filter it. I'd poor the alcohol into a glass pan of some sort and evaporate it off (using a fan, I suppose). Maybe even perform a second extraction on the leftover mush. Either way, I'll just use a dose worth, say 5 grams worth asssuming loses.

The main difference is that he (and most people) didn't evaporate it off, simply dosing the liquid. It'd be fun to get the crystal and stick it in a pill. One extraction I read of resulted in blue crystal. However, it wasn't very potent, either do to filtering, or destruction of chemicals. Either way, after an extraction your stuff isn't going to last long, I'd plan on taking it immediatly.





:wtf:

Did you even pay attention to the topic of this thread? This is not extraction for dosing...





I have been thinking about using this very method for species that require biologically active casing layers, and those difficult to fruit indoors ever since I read that in TMC. I never actually did though. Your experiments definetly have moved it up in the list of things to do however. This could be useful possibly in combination with activated charcoal, to induce pinning in those species that are reluctant...


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: ATWAR]
    #3513030 - 12/17/04 12:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry, I meant to post it in the other thread. I was wondering why it never showed up there.


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Pinback]
    #3514364 - 12/17/04 06:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

(ragadinks) Can you sterilize the "L?tta" plastic boxes you use as a fruiting container at your pics ?




Yes, but they tend to deform if pressure cooked. I usually just wash them up.

Quote:

(Alkaloids) What mass of mushrooms was used for the extract?




I knew I forgot something... It was 4 grams of dried mushrooms, both for the P. cubensis extract and the A. bisporus extract, per 100 ml of water, of which 70 ml was used in the casing.


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Pinback]
    #3526503 - 12/21/04 04:05 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Yields were definitely not significantly different in this extremely limited try: 109.7 g for the control and 108.4 g for the P. cubensis extract casing (wet weight, not pruned).

Here is one of the papers that is referred to in TMC: Metabolism of Adenosine 3',5'-Cyclic Monophosphate and Induction of Fruiting Bodies in Coprinus macrorhizus.


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Pinback]
    #3528113 - 12/21/04 04:17 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe this tek could help to get the Coprinus comatus to fruit indoors ?
That's something I had problems with.


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Pinback]
    #3530322 - 12/22/04 03:49 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Were these yields just the first flush? If the extract does indeed play a significant role in pinhead initiation, then it might be more accurate to quantify the yields from 3 flushes (which is where 90%+ of the yield comes from) and compare the total yields.

Especially if you can do a few trials with clones this could prove to give a better perspective on how useful this is for increasing yields or helping with other hard to fruit strains.

Awesome work.


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Alkaloids]
    #3531678 - 12/22/04 02:23 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

True, it was only the first flush, I'll report the later flushes too.

Thank you (all) for the comments!


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Re: Mushroom extracts in casing layer [Re: Pinback]
    #3597641 - 01/08/05 10:27 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

For some reason, possibly because the casings were left without light and air exchange during the holidays, neither the control nor the extract casing flushed again.


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Re: Mushroom extracts [Re: Pinback]
    #3928925 - 03/17/05 03:59 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Mushroom extracts supplied:
- Shiitake Mushroom extracts
- Maitake Mushroom extracts
- Reishi Mushroom extracts
- Corilous Versicolor (Mushroom extracts)
- Poria Cocos Mushroom extracts
- Monkeyhead Mushroom extracts
- Oyster Mushroom extracts
- Brazil Mushroom extracts
- The Beech Mushroom extracts
- Cordyceps Sinensis Mushroom extracts
- Tremella Fuciformis Mushroom extracts
- Agrocybe Aegerita Mushroom extracts

For details, pls visit www.freshes.com.


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Re: Mushroom extracts [Re: dapri]
    #3957722 - 03/23/05 03:37 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

It would be interesting if those processed extracts from fried mushrooms(I assume) have any effect on the pinning.


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