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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,286
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Last seen: 3 months, 18 days
America power on the decline?
    #3492079 - 12/13/04 05:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

What do you guys and girls think about the fact that America is almost certainly sometime int he next 25-30 years going to be surpassed as the worlds greatest superpower by China?

While we obviously have a far superior military and the stronger economy at this time, the Chinese are developing both at a tremendous rate. Their economy is growing exponentially faster than ours, while their military is modernizing quickly; they already claim somewhat credibly to be able to counter most of our most technologically advanced weapons.

Some people say that this is a disaster, that a communist China will dominate the way the old soviet union did, using terror and fear as a weapon. And certainly China has done this in the past, however, I think its much more likely that a liberal democratic society will emerge and China will be a benevolent power.

In my view, America has pretty much wasted its 150 years of dominance. What, really, have we accomplished? UN reports say that with a 15% cut in the military budget, we could feed all the hungry people ON THE PLANET. But instead we spend it on cruise missles and shit. I think another country having a chance to run things might not be such a bad idea.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #3492191 - 12/13/04 05:48 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not really sure you could really count China as communist anymore. They certainly have an authoritarian government, but they pretty much have a market economy by now. Anyway, there have been many times in history when China could have been a superpower, but did not become one due to their isolationist tendencies. We would be wise to follow suit.

Anyway, as for America's power declining, I'd say the American empire is only in its infancy. It may be this same interventionist policy that becomes our own undoing, however.

As for feeding all the hungry people on the planet, we shouldn't be giving handouts to everyone. What we need is to help people help themselves. End farm subsidies which hurt third-world farmers. Produce cheap, affordable food, and end protectionist policies which make it more expensive. The main cause of world hunger is not lack of food, but lack of affordable food.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #3492208 - 12/13/04 05:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

25-30 years seems a little fast... right? But there's definitely going to be some contention in the next fifty years. And that's what would worry me. The American government tends to be, or at least pretends to be, easily threatened. I shudder to think what another round of cold war would do to this country.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #3492811 - 12/13/04 07:17 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

unfortunately..at this moment i would have to say that you couldnt be more wrong...the "new american century" has only just begun..and there is an excellent chance that america will succeed where hitler failed...if so..the excesses of the american empire will make auschwitz seem liberal by comparison...fortunately..however..while americas' chances are quite good..they are still far from guarenteed...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 5 days
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3492998 - 12/13/04 07:43 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
unfortunately..at this moment i would have to say that you couldnt be more wrong...the "new american century" has only just begun..and there is an excellent chance that america will succeed where hitler failed...if so..the excesses of the american empire will make auschwitz seem liberal by comparison...fortunately..however..while americas' chances are quite good..they are still far from guarenteed...




"Unfortunately........"?
"Succeed where Hitler failed...."?
"Auschwitz seem liberal....."?
"fortunately......far from guaranteed"?

In another thread you said that you "don't have no voice in society"
You are wrong. You have a voice and everyone here has heard it. It's just that most of us have recognized it as the demented ravings of a bitter lunatic who has basicly nothing positive or creative or the least bit sane to offer to any discussion. You make the term "lunatic fringe" seem inadequate. I myself am quite proud to have been rated an "asswipe" by you.


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,284
Loc: oakland
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3493002 - 12/13/04 07:43 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree, Annapurna... I think the excesses of the American empire are going to lead to it's undoing, in the not-so-distant future. Simply put, America must advocate market-based capitalism (at least abroad) - that's the basis of Americas "greatness". And, as any economist can tell you, if the policies that America seems to advocate are actually carried out, a country like China will very soon surpass the US. Our economy is in shambles right now - and only hanging on by a thread because of the "trust" that international capital has in the US. The thought of the US economy failing and China taking over worries me, though, for two main reasons. Firstly, with this absurd mix of fundamentalist-religious policies and corporate American agenda, I'm afraid that some moron (*cough cough bush*) might view the collapsing US economy as the coming of the "end times" and drop a few nukes to speed things up. Secondly, with China's appalling labour history, not to mention authoritarianism, the movement towards international solidarity and a sustainable future - through, say, participatory economics - might suffer even greater setbacks. However, I can see one potential benefit of the capitalist-market-based-superpower being China instead of the US - Latin America might finally have the chance for actual self-determination. I can't imagine the CCP advocating the overthrow of "communistic" policies in Latin America (unless the age of doublespeak is really here!) - and without having the red,white,and blue giant breathing down it's neck, Latin America might have the opportunity to collectively organise itself, it's people, and it's resources. In my personal thoughts about the future of Latin America, such an organisation would be inherently anti-market, as well as anti-central-planning - thus opening the doors to new worlds of participatory self-management. Anyway, I do think that the shift from a US dominated world-market economy to a Chinese dominated world-market economy will occur in our lifetimes (unless anybody here is 80+ years old!) The repercussions... well for now, we can only speculate.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Krishna]
    #3493030 - 12/13/04 07:48 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)



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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,284
Loc: oakland
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3493205 - 12/13/04 08:12 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

OK think about what you just did, Great_Satan. I posted comments about how if the United States is honest in its advocation of internationalised, free, market-based capitalism - then all the indicators show that China might very well be poised to take a greater share of the markets - based upon its more authoritarian means of controlling its consumer and worker populations, its relatively lower standards of worker remuneration, its historic disregard for labour-rights, and many other factors. In short, China can make products for cheaper than the United States - by cutting many costs (usually at the expensive of the Chinese labour force). As well the CCP continues to use some central control over the markets to shape a nationalised consumer-culture that in turn benefits the markets, and thus China's position as an international market-force.

To this, you respond by posting a website with videos entitled "Bomb Saddam", "Die Terrorists Die", and "Taliban Bodies". Even if one ignores the jingoistic absurdity of the link you posted - what the hell does it have to do with the future of Chinese and US roles in international capitalistic markets?

You are perfectly welcome to hold your own opinions - but why not comment on the points that I have raised instead of ignoring them completely?


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #3493267 - 12/13/04 08:21 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

the 900 pound gorilla!
IMO, it is very important for a country to be efficient and responsible. maybe USA has not done a great job of that but
china is very far from that. lots of corruption in china...
what i worry about is all the hatred over there. (n.Korea-s.Korea) (China-Taiwan)


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Krishna]
    #3493366 - 12/13/04 08:32 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
You are perfectly welcome to hold your own opinions - but why not comment on the points that I have raised instead of ignoring them completely?



You must be new here.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3493425 - 12/13/04 08:42 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Whoops. You've been warned before not to flame in this forum. Calling Annapurna1 a "bitter lunatic" is undeniably a flame.

See you tomorrow.


pinky


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,284
Loc: oakland
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: z@z.com]
    #3493432 - 12/13/04 08:43 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
Quote:

Krishna said:
You are perfectly welcome to hold your own opinions - but why not comment on the points that I have raised instead of ignoring them completely?



You must be new here.




:grin: not at all... but i have a strong belief in the power of dialogue and communication not to "solve" problems, but to allow us to have a better understanding of past, current, and future situations. I'll never stop trying to engage those who disagree with me in dialogue - although it is frustrating when they seem to care more about getting their kicks than increasing the over-all wealth of human knowledge... but :shrug: gotta keep on trying, eh?


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3493441 - 12/13/04 08:44 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Don't worry, zappa, I'm gonna make protest threads until they unban you.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 15 days
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Krishna]
    #3493474 - 12/13/04 08:49 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Krishna > G_S


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,284
Loc: oakland
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3493596 - 12/13/04 09:09 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Krishna > G_S




thanks for the compliment, but i have to disagree. i don't necessarily think that my world-view, my philosophical inklings, my spiritual beliefs, or even my taste in music are certain and true. i like to think of them all being in a constant state of growth. Great_Satan has shown himself to be somebody who has very different views than myself. i'm not asking him to prove his views are "more correct" than mine, nor to try to convince me of his views - and i don't really want to "convince" him of my views - but merely to discuss them. we come from the same earth, are borne out of the same species, and so i find it very disconcerting when somebody holds a basic-world-view so different from my own, but is unwilling to engage in a dialogue.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Krishna]
    #3493686 - 12/13/04 09:24 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

i do not agree with some of your views, but i enjoy reading them.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 5 days
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Phred]
    #3499657 - 12/14/04 09:28 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Whoops. You've been warned before not to flame in this forum. Calling Annapurna1 a "bitter lunatic" is undeniably a flame.

See you tomorrow.


pinky




This is too fucking good.  You left my post, you quoted me in your post and I was banned for all of 39 min 48 sec that I could otherwise have been on.  AND I lost my cherry. :cheers:
(Hey Gij, where'd you say those protest posts were????? :grin:)


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3499773 - 12/14/04 09:41 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Krishna > G_S




He flamed me. Ban him!


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,284
Loc: oakland
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3499838 - 12/14/04 09:48 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

still no response or comments on the points that i posted, Great_Satan? i don't see how American power will not decline so long as we stay dedicated to our "values" of free, market-based capitalism... but maybe you have some points that i've overlooked?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: America power on the decline? [Re: Krishna]
    #3500451 - 12/14/04 11:06 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Will American power decline? It is inevitable. Soon? Maybe, maybe not. Is that a good thing for Americans? Who knows. Is it a good thing for the world? Again nobody really knows, but I would wager with China as the global superpower alot of former critics will miss the US. All I know is that the US is the most benevolant hegemon in the history of the world and I would not presume the same of our sucessor.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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