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Invisiblespudamore
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The One and Only
    #3487332 - 12/12/04 07:53 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i read somewhere one on this board saying "experience over science anyday"
and was thinking how science refutes experiences. but if it was not for experience, science wouldn't exsist.


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The One and Only [Re: spudamore]
    #3487358 - 12/12/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Tell me of an experience science refuted.

An example would move this thread along.


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: The One and Only [Re: oceansize]
    #3487382 - 12/12/04 08:03 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

it doesn't matter what experience.
because science will never be able to define a single experience.


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The One and Only [Re: spudamore]
    #3487794 - 12/12/04 09:57 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

So you started this thread to talk to yourself in text, maybe hoping someone would pop in and say "yep"?

Noone ever claimed science could define an experience. ON the other hand, you said science 'refutes' experiences, and that is a wholenother beast all together.

Now, care to elaborate?


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: The One and Only [Re: oceansize]
    #3487815 - 12/12/04 10:01 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

maybe hoping someone would pop in and say "yep"?

nope

Noone ever claimed science could define an experience.

well they would have made a definition of experience to refute experiences that they don't have evidence for or seem "illogical"

ON the other hand, you said science 'refutes' experiences, and that is a wholenother beast all together.

Now, care to elaborate?

i don't need to.


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The One and Only [Re: spudamore]
    #3487977 - 12/12/04 10:32 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"well they would have made a definition of experience to refute experiences that they don't have evidence for or seem "illogical""

If you tell me there are flying pink unicorns from mars under your bed, I don't need to do anything NEAR 'define your experience' to tell you you are beyond a reasonable doubt full of shit on scientific grounds.


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Offlinephi1618
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Re: The One and Only [Re: spudamore]
    #3488046 - 12/12/04 10:48 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Now, care to elaborate?

i don't need to.




If you want a discussion on what you've said, you should explain to us a little more clearly what you mean, because it isn't entirely obvious.

You said:
Quote:

science refutes experience




I'm just not sure what this means. If you gave a specific example, I'd know what you're talking about.


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: The One and Only [Re: oceansize]
    #3488205 - 12/12/04 11:12 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

If you tell me there are flying pink unicorns from mars under your bed.

if i experienced it, it is what it is, you can question it if you liked but nothing will take away that experience.


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The One and Only [Re: spudamore]
    #3488273 - 12/12/04 11:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

...So said the excretement covered man in the cardboard box shaking a can that says 'crack money' on the side


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: The One and Only [Re: oceansize]
    #3488333 - 12/12/04 11:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

so what are you implying?


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OfflineNomad
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Re: The One and Only [Re: oceansize]
    #3488457 - 12/12/04 11:54 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well, the prime example is given by Rupert Sheldrake: Psychic Pets. There are apparently millions of pet-owners around who had the sort of experience where the dog would react ten minutes before a member of the household actually returned home. This is very much a taboo issue, because science denies that sort of experience. There is a certain dogmatic worldview present; it has long been established that science only advances in paradigm shifts, when the supporters of the old model die out. There always has been and there always will be a clash between personal experience and the consensus reality of a certain culture. If such a clash occurs, it is silly to choose the latter and deny the former. Authority sucks, in each and every case. It does not matter much if it's the holy priests of science or any other religion.


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: The One and Only [Re: Nomad]
    #3488469 - 12/12/04 11:57 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

well said  :thumbup:


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The One and Only [Re: spudamore]
    #3488562 - 12/13/04 12:18 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Pets constantly pick up on inherent cues in their enviroment that humans miss. Science doesn't refute this, but it does refute pets using supernatural psychic powers.

Paradigm shifts for the most part bullshit. They are usual defined after-the-fact. Changes in the scientific community depend on evidence, not people dying.

I don't deny that there is many things of worth in human subjective experiences. There is value in the many myths of earth's creation, for example, from an anthropological perspective. But I rarely do I see science stepping on toes of these experiences, or at least their essential value. ( If you want us to spuddy, you should provide us with an example.)That is, until people project their experience unto the world and try to make claims about objective reality. Those claims are then certainly subject to scientific scrutiny. This has nothing to do with "defining experiences."


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: The One and Only [Re: oceansize]
    #3489104 - 12/13/04 02:09 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

There is value in the many myths of earth's creation, for example, from an anthropological perspective. But I rarely do I see science stepping on toes of these experiences, or at least their essential value. ( If you want us to spuddy, you should provide us with an example.)

and human experience often steps on science toes.

That is, until people project their experience unto the world and try to make claims about objective reality.

claims or their own truths? accept it don't accept it, come to a conclusion, or don't it doesn't worry me what you do with what truths are shared.

Those claims are then certainly subject to scientific scrutiny. This has nothing to do with "defining experiences."

why do they still Define it then?


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Edited by spudamore (12/13/04 02:58 AM)


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The One and Only [Re: spudamore]
    #3490709 - 12/13/04 01:16 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

You are missing the point. If you think your pet knows when someone is coming home, fine. But when you say that it is due to ESP, direct telepathic powers, Science doesn't need to define your experience. You already did. Science gets to test your claim.

But anyway, once again. How about an example where science defines and refutes a human's subjective experience?


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The One and Only [Re: oceansize]
    #3490763 - 12/13/04 01:29 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

science is a lot smaller tool than it is made out to be.
the real life situations are usually way too complex for science to do experiments on while keeping maningful control experiments going on the side. (including the pets know when buddy is coming home no good control tests are deviseable, the question itself is hard to frame meaningfully)

but I understand the fear of saying the wrong thing and then having a science savvy guy com along a poo poo the whole thing.

really it is a case of the caste system of attitudes. ( another instance of scientific browbeating attitude crushes fuzzy thinker attititude)

All the same, clear thought - carefully chosen words, respect and dignity will help a lot in coming to grips with any particular issue, in conversation.


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: The One and Only [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3490824 - 12/13/04 01:42 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

thumbs up.

except: science itself is no more than it claims to be. It is the proponents of it, or more likely, the opponents of it, that say it is supposed to be more. Look anywhere on this thread, it is almost always the newage types and nonscientific types that claim science is supposed to be a complete worldview. It is then easier to knock down. A textbook strawman fallacy.


It also happens to be the only way to test if the dog knows when buddy is home. You just have to ask the right question.

For example, many animals have been thought to be capible of doing simple math problems, including Horses and Geese. The owners truly thought this was the case, and scientific trials were inconclusive. UNTIL--- it was found that the presence of the tester would give the animal a barely noticable cue- the tester or owner would become tense until the animal stomped its foot the correct number of times, when the tester would relax, and the animal would stop.


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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